Skills and Abilities rant!

[Alamar]

The only problem with the current system is that they decided to hide the advanced abilities.If you had them portrayed in the description of the skill that provides them,along with their prerequests,there wouldnt be a problem.

True. But will they do that? Isn't it what Fabrice said, that they didn't want to reveal the skilltree because it was "part of the fun" or something like that?

I'm not sure if they will but the "part of the fun" line was a load of crap. Hopefully they are getting an earful and will decide against the "part of the fun" logic come time for an expansion.

No documentation == part of the fun
Hiding abilities == part of the fun
... yeah right

[Bandobras Took]

Organic hero evolution means that if a Hero encounters a Witch Hut, they would take the skill, whether they like it or not, and then adapt to using it in their strategy.

In the previous games, there was no real penalty for doing this - you didn't feel you had to check it out or reload if it was "bad". In HoMM III, you had 8 skills to choose from, so burning one on a Witch's Hut wasn't a big problem. If it was useful, you got all your heroes to pick it up, otherwise, you ignored it.

Ummmm . . . no. The number of people who would reload if they got stuck with Eagle Eye or Navigation are beyond count for Heroes III.

In HoMM IV, you had a must more restricted number of skill slots, but mot people decided their advanced class by the first two or three, and the other skills were just filler, so burning one wasn't all that bad (read "end of the world") once you'd got those filled, and there were lots of ways to pick up the skills you wanted.

Unless, of course, you were seeking to avoid a Combat based class, as they made the possibility of getting combat twice that of any other skill.

Yet, in HoMM V, with it's abilities and limited to 3 slots and needing specific combinations of skills, the chances you take with a Witch's Hut is almost unbearable. Not all skill combinations work, and unless you know beforehand what the skill in the hut will be, can't really plan around it with applicable skill comboes for high level abilites. You can only hope that is a skill you want, and if not...

What skill combinations don't work, offhand? Give us an example.

Sure, I don't need to chase the ultimate ability, but that is not the point. The fact is, if you play without meticulously planning your heroes progression, you will never see the ultimate ability, because the odds of picking the right combination without knowing it beforehand is slim.

Again, this is a complaint with documentation, not the skill system.

More often than not, organic heroes all end up with the first teir abilities cloging up their slots (Master of Ice, Scholar, tactics, and so on) with maybe a few second teir abilities if there's no real requirements besides a previous ability in the same skill.

That hasn't happened to me yet . . . difference of play style?

Third tier abilities will almost certainly not be organically available, because you need an exact order of abilities to get to them, even when they don't require abilities from other skills.

And more often than not, these tertiary abilities have as their requirements either a secondary ability from the skill or a subability from the racial skill. The complaint is still one of documentation, not the skill system.

I'm bored, and it's late, but the chance of randomly picking abilities is reduced significantly as you go up the tiers simply because of the requirements. This is the problem.

Only if you're going for an Ultimate Ability (and 4 out of 6 of those, given their effects, ought to be difficult to get.) Otherwise, I've had no problem getting precisely the abilities I wanted.

Not to mention that if you're supposed to do that sort of planning, then HoMM V should have given you the option of picking any available ability when you level up, not just two chosen at random. As it stands, it is simply far too random for the 3 ability limit to be justifiable, or even fun!

Fun is, of course, subjective. As far as justifiability goes, though, I have yet to hear any argument from you that isn't directly contradicted by my personal experience with the game. Not being able to get an ability you want is a lack of documentation. Unless you're trying for an Ultimate Ability, which, again, ought to be difficult to get.

But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with being limited to three subskills.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Da' vane

Youre wrong about HIII.I always had one of the useless heroes to go to witch hut first,or just reload if the ability was useless.Not having you asked if you want the skill is just another example of the rule.

Oh,btw,am I wrong here:It seems that if the skill offered cannot be taken by the hero,the witch hut still doesnt show you what it offers? It sounds so weird,yet it happened to me once.At least I think that it did Maybe I did something wrong.

[Gaidal Cain]

Oh,btw,am I wrong here:It seems that if the skill offered cannot be taken by the hero,the witch hut still doesnt show you what it offers? It sounds so weird,yet it happened to me once.At least I think that it did Maybe I did something wrong.

You're right. It's listed in the bug thread.

[Da' vane]

I'm sorry - I thought I made it clear that I was talking about organic hero development, not tournament play. You know... people who don't feel the need to have the most twinked out heroes because that's what their human opponents would also have.

I'm not saying that twinking out your heroes is bad - but for those of us that don't want to reload because we gain a "useless" skill, the organic approach of taking what we're given, so we can try new things out just doesn't seem to work.

Documentation is an issue, but it's not the only problem here. If you take Master of Storms, Master of Fire, and Master of Ice - you can't take any more abilities even if they would have been available to you. Even if you could see what these abilities open up for you, it would only make the likelyhood of organically getting the second tier abilities (which usually only need the ability beforehand) lightly higher - it doesn't really help with 3rd tier abilities, which often need specific 1st and second tier abilities from different skills.

Take Light Magic with a Knight - You get a choice of abilities and take Master of Wrath. Next level, you don't get any higher options, so you take Master of Blessings. The final level, you take Master of Abjuration. Guardian Angel comes from Master of Abjuration, but you can't ever gain that now, because you've already taken the other two masters. This is what happens when you play organically - especially without documentation. You don't get to see the cool options, and by the time you do get around to seeing them, more often than not you cannot because of the stupid 3 abilities only limit.

Chasing Ultimates is hard, because you need to get four specific skills, and usually, three specific abilities in the right order to do this. The chances of doing this are very slim, especially without documentation, and even then, there's always the chance that the "random seed" simply won't give you those options.

There are twelve Skills, and you only get to pick five of them... so why not simply allow the Hero to take the abilities and stuff from all of them? Sure, the presence of a single ultimate might make this unbanaced - but that's no real justification because only a single Ultimate is indicative of Nival's laziness - there's no reason why different ultimates can be crated to allow equally powerful abilities for people who don't take the four specific skills. Otherwise, they might as well just have restricted each Hero type to four specific skills, and three specific abilities, and an ultimate when they've "maxed out"...

The Skills system, as it stands, is quite cool, but the stupid three abilities limit that is enforced is annoying, and pointless. You have a comparable system from table-top RPGs like D&D, but you don't see them say "oh, you can only have three feats that use Strength has a prerequisite," or from Spycraft "you can only have three feats from the ranged attack tree."

Both of these systems have requirements to get the feats - but they don't limit you to the number of feats from a specific area of expertise. The fact you have to level up to get these feats provides a limits, but if you want to specialize, you can.

Converting this in to HoMM V - if I want my hero to specialise in Light Magic, I should be able to take ALL of the abilities from Light Magic that I have the requirements for - not be limited to just three. It's balanced, simply because every level I spend taking a Light Magic ability, I'm not taking an ability from another skill, like Dark Magic, Attack, or Enlightenment...

[DaemianLucifer]

But thats just as saying that having just 7 stacks is stupid,or that having just 4 primary skills is stupid.You can call any rule limiting your actions stupid,but the fact is that without those rules the game would be unchalanging,and therefore stupid.The only thing this needs is proper info.In your example:If you take light magic,right click on it would show you detailed all five abilities,and prerequests for the advanced two.

[Bandobras Took]

If you take light magic,right click on it would show you detailed all five abilities,and prerequests for the advanced two.

Precisely. It's the info that's lacking, not skill slots. (This is one of those rare occurences where DL and I actually agree on something. Perhaps this post should be bronzed. )

[Da' vane]

We're not arguing about 7 stacks or 4 primary skills: We're arging about 3 abilities from your skill.

I'm not doing to be drawn into an arguments about either of these things - but both do have merits and drawbacks. But my personal feelings about these are as follows:

7 stacks - On the face of it, this seems rather limiting, but it is there to prevent abuse with diplomacy, and splitting stacks. If there wasn't a limit to the number of stacks in an army, you'd face opponents with single unit stacks, unbalancing casters and hordes, and you'd see lots of Diplomacy abuse, because diplomactic heroes would run around getting everybody to join for bigger armies with no limitations.

That said - if diplomacy was removed, and unit stacking was limited so you could have only a single stack of each creature type, then the 7 stack unit might not be so applicable, because creature growth rates and creature dwellings already put a cap on such armies.

Either way, I'm neutral about 7 stacks - either approach would be good.

4 primary skills - This isn't a limit. 4 primary skills is right up their with 6 factions. It's a feature, but doesn't impose a limit in any way.

If your idea of challenging is enforced limits with no real meaning, then I truly do pity you. That's right up there with thinking that "frustrating" and "repetative" means fun. If heroes can gain all the abilities for their skills that they meet the requirements for - then this would apply to all heroes, not just yours. You'd face other human players who may have opted to specialise in a single skill, or might have spread their talents a little more into two or three skills. This isn't unbalancing, it is just different...

Unbalancing is when you try to pit a Necromancer hero with Leadership, Recruitment, Estates, and Diplomacy, with one that has Leadership, Diplomacy, Recruitment, and Herald of Death. Or pitting a caster with Light Magic, Master of Blessings, Master of Abjurations, and Guardian Angel with Light Magic, Master of Blessings, Master of Abjurations, and Master of Wrath. Unbalancing is pitting an hero with the Ultimate ability with one who is prevented from getting one because they too a wrong skill somewhere.

[DaemianLucifer]

No,my idea of chalenge and strategy is in choices and planing.You cannot just organically build your town,you have to plan it depending on the resources available,map type,creatures surroundig you,enemy youre facing,etc.You have to plan your army and your skills to enable you the least losses,and the win at the end.Imagine if everyone could have all skills and all abilities.Wheres the fun in that?Wheres the uniquness?Sure,its perfectly balanced,but its no fun.Even chess,the most perfectly balanced strategy ever,has one tiny imbalance that means alot and makes the whole game.and that one is:White always plays first.Being restricted to just three abilities for each skill,and just 5 skills for each hero is not limmiting without a meaning,its customazing,choosing and planing.

[ThunderTitan]

@DL & BT:
There is such a thing as excessive limits. The Ultimate is too hard to reach and depends too much on getting lucky. Having 4 ability slots would help with that.

[Da' vane]

Which brings me back to my point - the ability to organically develop your heroes has been lost.

Nobody said anything about everybody having all the skills, but think of the actual implications of that. There are 12 skills, plus a unique racial skill, so 13 total skills per hero. Heroes start with two anyway (sometimes three), so that's 11 levels there just to pick up all the skills (assmuning know witch hunts).

Each skill has three ranks (fourth only available through an artifact) - that's 39 levels, minus the two you start with, so 37 levels required to max those out.

We've not even got to abilities yet - but there are three racial abilities plus the ultimate... that's another four levels, so now thats 41 levels.

Add three perks (as the CH manual calls the first tier abilities) for each of the 12 skills, and you've got another 36 levels. That's level 75 without any of the other advanced levels...

How often do you see 75th level heroes on a map!? If you have witch huts' you only reduce this by 11 at most, giving you 64+ level heroes needed.

So, any argument about it would be unchallenging to have heroes who could get everything is without foundation. If a Hero managed to reach level 64 on a single map, then I think they pretty much DESERVE to have the option of being able to take everything, don't you?

[DaemianLucifer]

@DL & BT:
There is such a thing as excessive limits. The Ultimate is too hard to reach and depends too much on getting lucky. Having 4 ability slots would help with that.

Or,they could just make the ultimate with less prerequests.2 abilities instead of three.Same effect.

[MrSteamTank]

They definitely need to tone down the experience needed to level at around lvl 20-25+. It gets too hard to level up afterwards. This way ultimate skills could still be achievable.

[DaemianLucifer]

They definitely need to tone down the experience needed to level at around lvl 20-25+. It gets too hard to level up afterwards. This way ultimate skills could still be achievable.

Or they could bring back the leveling up from previous sequels.This one is ridiculous!

[Gaidal Cain]

Which brings me back to my point - the ability to organically develop your heroes has been lost.

It was never there to start with. In h3, I there wer about a dozen skills that were "worth it". In H4, you had to go to pretty extreme lengths if you didn't want a hero with combat. At least in h4, almost any combination of skills can be useful. Each hero type has only like two skills they are less likely to get much use out of- the magic schools not associated with their town. What you call "organic" actually seems to mean "without having to think". Heroes is a strategy game. That means that you need to consider your options before making a choice.

[zhuge]

The idea behind having limited feat slots is to make the player more selective. I find that I can still get most of the feats I want anyway and the standard tier 1 feats which any class can choose really aren't too bad.
Take for example the Attack skill: Battle Frenzy, Archery, Tactics are all pretty useful. Generally speaking, I don't really feel tier 2 or 3 feats (those dependent on other feats) are that great anyhow that it would absolutely make them something to really strive for.

[Da' vane]

That's not the point, zhuge.

If everybody is going for the 1st teir "perks", then why not just make a whole bunch of perks and let you choose from them directly. They still could have forced selection and maintain balance by making the perks all of similar power.

I mean, a choice between diplomacy or recruitment - that depends on the use for the hero, but its generally one or the other when you level up.

But is a perk the same sort of power as an ultimate? I don't mean a specific perk or a specific ultimate - we all know some suck and some done, but gerally, if you compare the best ultimate with the best perk - are they the same sort of level of ability?

Because often, that's what the coice comes down to - since taking an extra pirk can cost you the ability slot you need to reach the ultimate. That's hardly balanced...

[zhuge]

If everybody is going for the 1st teir "perks", then why not just make a whole bunch of perks and let you choose from them directly. They still could have forced selection and maintain balance by making the perks all of similar power.

Dunno. I suppose you could do that but it would be kinda wierd having say Basic Defence and then Battle Frenzy... doesn't seem too related. I think the current system is fine. It just needs some care in choosing and of course good documentation

But is a perk the same sort of power as an ultimate? I don't mean a specific perk or a specific ultimate - we all know some suck and some done, but gerally, if you compare the best ultimate with the best perk - are they the same sort of level of ability?

No I'm not comparing them with ultimates. Of course ultimates are better. But since they have so many prerequisites you probably only stand a chance getting them in campaigns or very large maps. Besides, you don't need ultimates at all to finish a map.
Having the freedom to choose what is most needed at that particular time is frequently a lot more useful than to aim for some hifi ability which you can only get a lot further down the road.

[Da' vane]

No - I meant if you had Light Magic, and instead of requiring Master of Abjuration or whatever, you could have Guardian Angel straight away...

See, with ability limit, you have three abilities maximum for each skill. That means under a single skill, you can have perk, perk, perk or perk, perk, second ability, or perk, second ability, third ability. These combinations all have to be compared.

But it gets worse, because if you have perk, 2nd ability, 3rd ability for the correct skills, you also get your ultimate. You don't get that choice if you take perk, perk, 2nd ability in one of those skills, or if you don't have the right skills. Since taking a second perk denies you the chance to gt any third abilities, you have to compare perks with third abilites when you make that choice.

Not only that, but then there order to consider as well, which is only slightly helped by increased documentation. If there are only 2nd abilities for the first two perks, then taking the third perk will rob you of the chance of taking one of those second abilities. If only one of the perks has a third ability, then taking either of the other two perks robs you of the chance to take that third ability.

This is all unnessary when you look at the greater picture. Why should you be forced to choose between taking a second perk or a third ability, or a third perk and a second ability?

If you could take all three perks, and all three second abilities, and all three third ability, you aren't forced to make these decisions. It's still balanced, because being able to take of these requires nine levels, during which time another hero could have taken the same nine ability, a different nine abilities for another skill, or any combination of nine abilities from two or more abilities. The option of gaining all nine of the abilities under a skill still makes you a 9th level hero, and therefore theoreticaly balanced with any other 9th level hero.

Ultimately, removing the limit to allow you to take more abilities increases your options without restricting choice arbitrarily, but it means you would take longer to max out a hero.

Essentially, the Ultimates are bad because there is only one way to get them. Deviate from that path, and you don't get that ultimate. And when you consider that the Ultimate appears on the racial specialization and not under abilities, that's essentially a free slot for a specific combination of skills. As well as being a pretty nifty ability in most cases.

Sure it takes a long time to get there, but imagine pitting who maxed out heroes. One has the ultimate, and one doesn't. The one with the ultimate should win, simply because it has an extra ability (all other factors assumed to cancel out).

The limit on abilities provides an arbitary neccessity of choices, where you are force to pit what you are being offered now against what you may get in the future. True freedom of choice would allow you to take the perks you want now, and not lose the option of taking the higher, more powerful abilities later. Essentially, when you take that second perk, all you are really doing is delaying when you take the higher level abilities.

Removing the limit makes decisions a simple question of order - pitted against the gamble of whether you'll actually get that a level. Do you by your second ability this level, or do you buy that second perk now, and get the second abilit next level?

Currently, it's not about WHEN you'll pick up certain abilities, but IF you'll pick up certain abilities. Do you take the second perk or aim for the third ability? You have to decide now, and take a gamble on the future... will you be able to get the secondary skill requirement for that third ability? If you aim for it, and never get it, you've wasted time and options. If you take the second perk because you don't have the other skill for the third ability but then get offered it later on, you'll be kicking yourself...

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a great number of players who have gone for the ultimate ability and simply not got the requirements for it offered to them. But I bet there are just as many who decided not to get the ultimate because it seemed like too much hard work or very unlikly they will get it, and then discovered that everything was there for them to have got it if they wanted.

That stops making HoMM a strategy game, and makes it a gambling game, where success and failure are decided entirely by random seeds rather than any sort of skill.

[Bandobras Took]

@DL & BT:
There is such a thing as excessive limits. The Ultimate is too hard to reach and depends too much on getting lucky. Having 4 ability slots would help with that.

The biggest headache I've found in getting Ultimate abilities isn't the secondary skills; it's the primary skills. I have had a harder time getting Dark Magic for a Demon Lord than Power of Speed or Dark Renewal.

The skill system emphasizes specializing in the skills you already know if you want your ultimate. Certainly, if you take five basic abilities, you're going to crowd your choices for subabilities. If you work on one at a time, it's pretty easy to get what you need.

In seeking an Ultimate, my first step is always to max out the racial ability, then whatever ability the Hero starts with (and I'm not insane enough to try it with a hero whose basic skill does not conform). But that's if I'm trying for the Ultimate, which I likely won't be. The skills outside of the ultimate abilities are generally too much fun to not play around with.

What I'd like to see is basic skills offered in the slots where subabilities would go if you've run out of options for subabilities. I could guarantee Urgash's Call if that happened.