Heroes in combat charge attacks enemies behind walls..

[mctronic]

a minor detail that should be overlooked if you ask me

[millionmilesaway]

"Camelot!"
"Camelot!"
"It's only a model."
"Sshhh!"

Hehe, kinda funny! My thought exactly. "Would you tell your master that we are seeking the holy grail, or we will storm this castle at once!" "Go ahead english fools!" "Atack! "cling, cling." "Retreat, retreat!" "What if we built this large wooden rabbit and then Gallahad, Lancelot and I jump out at nightfall. The frenchmen will be totally surprised, not only surprised but totally unarmed!" Yeah yeah, the brick-cracking method sounds kinda stupid too I'd say They should be following Python's example by building a wooden rabbit!

[DaemianLucifer]

a minor detail that should be overlooked if you ask me

Yes,why not overlook gravity as well?Lets have arrows fall upwards instead.And lets have heroes walking over water.Why should they be hinged by those stupid laws of nature?

[Ethric]

Well essentially all the heroes have ranged attacks, it's just the haven hero has a cool graphic that shows him doing a ride by attack instead of shooting. I don't think the game designers want to penalize him for this by giving him a major drawback (not being able to attack through walls). If you took away that ability you'd need to give him a buff to another area to make up for it.

Well you could say that no heroes are allowed to attack behind walls, be it via a ranged-effect or a charge-effect. That creatures can still shoot can be explained with that they are many, and fire blindly over the walls. The penalty to damage (I assume there is one, haven't actually researched it) symbolises that shooting blindly means that only a portion hits the target.

Either way, charge-attacks being able to hit anywhere no matter what is daft. For me, believeability is part of being able to enjoy a game.

[DaemianLucifer]

Well you could say that no heroes are allowed to attack behind walls, be it via a ranged-effect or a charge-effect. That creatures can still shoot can be explained with that they are many, and fire blindly over the walls. The penalty to damage (I assume there is one, haven't actually researched it) symbolises that shooting blindly means that only a portion hits the target.

I think that the penalty is the same as for distance.These two should be cumulative though.But,since they were cumulative in HIV,I guess thats out of the question.And,as I suggested in some other threads,creatures shouldnt be able to shoot through walls as well.There should be a special ability allowing a creature to shoot over the wall.Titans,archers,priests and inquisitors should have this.Maybe gremlins as well.

[Blue_Camel]

i think it brings a certain silly appeal to HOMM. it harkens me back to the great feeling of heroes 2

[Bandobras Took]

I think that the penalty is the same as for distance.These two should be cumulative though.But,since they were cumulative in HIV,I guess thats out of the question.

Yeesh, get off the horse already. In HII, there was a penalty for attacking through walls. H3 introduced a battlefield large enough for distance to matter, not to mention flyers not having unlimited movement, which allowed ranged units to matter.

H4 combined the two, but it didn't matter, since spellcasting units were better ranged troops, anyway.

But the whole thing is typical anyway:

"Firing through walls is not logical!"

"Well, actually, it is, since it represents masses of units firing over walls, (projectiles fired at an angle naturally follow a parabolic path), and hitting the massed troops on the other side."

"Yeah, well, this perfectly logical explanation should be limited to a few troops because I want to complain! Archers and Elves should be forbidden from shooting arrows or bolts over walls, because people with bows and crossbows never did this in real life. Oh, wait . . ."

To summarize:

People who like to complain are going to complain no matter how desperately you work to please them. This applies in any aspect of life, not strictly game design; there's a woman I work with who is absolutely convinced that everything is a plot by management against her, and no amount of kindness or permissions will convinve her otherwise.

Anyway, enough of the critique. Back to the main point:

There's a certain amount of abstraction in any strategy game; if it distracts from immersion, it does not matter. The point of the game is not to immerse us in ultra realism, or we would have individual creatures instead of stacks.

[DaemianLucifer]

There's a certain amount of abstraction in any strategy game; if it distracts from immersion, it does not matter. The point of the game is not to immerse us in ultra realism, or we would have individual creatures instead of stacks.

Thats true.But,over the years,technology allowed us to have more and more realistic strategies that are not any more complicated than the previous.There is a certain amount of abstraction only because of the limitations of the machines.

[Gaidal Cain]

Thats true.But,over the years,technology allowed us to have more and more realistic strategies that are not any more complicated than the previous.There is a certain amount of abstraction only because of the limitations of the machines.

Naah. Abstracting the rules can be fun in itself. Heroes is a good example of this: the whole battlefield/stack setup is very unrealistic, but it still works, and it gives a certain charm to the tactics.

[Ethric]

People who like to complain are going to complain no matter how desperately you work to please them.

Anyway, enough of the critique. Back to the main point:

You did of course see the irony? Yes? Good.

Yes I for one DO like to complain, or voice my opinion, when I see something I don't think is right. If that's a crime then you can call me mr Enemy of the People.

There's a certain amount of abstraction in any strategy game; if it distracts from immersion, it does not matter.

I beg to differ. Even if it's a game with lots of abstractions, not anything goes. And I for one see "abstractions" like the one discussed in this thread as a weird feature and a source of annoyance. True, many things you have to accept as somewhat odd astractions, because there's no other sensible\workable way to do them. But in this case, my underlying grief is that the whole system is flawed, and for me charging through walls is a product of that flaw. If you on the other hand think it's generally fine, then you're more likely to forgive this quirk.

[Kalah]

Indeed. It is not given that even our favourite games escape from critique; I for one am ready to admit that Master of Orion 2 had several balance issues as far as weaponry and racial abilities go, and that the makers of the excellent Championship Manager 4 have had many years to fix all the little things that have been bothering us for so long, and in many cases they have not.

A perfect game is no fun discussing anyway

[DaemianLucifer]

Naah. Abstracting the rules can be fun in itself. Heroes is a good example of this: the whole battlefield/stack setup is very unrealistic, but it still works, and it gives a certain charm to the tactics.

And why were stacks made?Thats right!Because computers were to weak to draw and track thousands of units.Its just later that this system proved as a very good one and is not in a desperate need of a change.

[Kalah]

Another thing is about practicality; even if you could make the computer create an army of 200 creatures each visible on the battlefield without swallowing too much CPU power, you'd still have the problem of hitting and killing them all. Armies would become incontrollable and you'd have to stand back to give general orders instead - these units attack here etc. And the charm about the Heroes battles is that you can control each creature.

[Bandobras Took]

People who like to complain are going to complain no matter how desperately you work to please them.

Anyway, enough of the critique. Back to the main point:

You did of course see the irony? Yes? Good.

Yes I for one DO like to complain, or voice my opinion, when I see something I don't think is right. If that's a crime then you can call me mr Enemy of the People.

Oh, no, that's fine. I was railing against the people who will change their opinions in order to have something to complain about. That's what the theoretical conversation immediately above my statement was about. Most people who bring up the "realism" cry are complaining about something else -- which is why when you point out that something is realistic within the setting, they either dismiss the argument or change their own.

To get on with it, let's look at what ThunderTitan said:

Sure it is, it's not like there's a Dimension Door spell or anything.

Would the problem of a Melee Hero charging behind the walls be solved if there were a teleportation animation first? That's logical and consistent within the world; it's a magical world, after all.

[Ethric]

Fine by me, but teleportation isn't classically suited to Knights so there'd still be some complaining to do

Or just give them all ranged attacks, the Knights's one could be some sort of holy smite from the sky, similar to Priest\Inquisitor. If the knights are to be able to enter the battlefield I want the ability to give them a good whack across the helm, like in H4. But that's not likely to happen

Or, here's a thought within the current system, have the knights soar into the sky in a suitably divine and holy fashion and divecharge onto the enemy fro mthe heavens.

[DaemianLucifer]

Oh, no, that's fine. I was railing against the people who will change their opinions in order to have something to complain about. That's what the theoretical conversation immediately above my statement was about. Most people who bring up the "realism" cry are complaining about something else -- which is why when you point out that something is realistic within the setting, they either dismiss the argument or change their own.

Since most of the complaints about this come from me and Ethric,you should read our posts thoroughly.Youll see that weve been complaining about this for a long time now,and dont change our oppinions as the wind blows.

To get on with it, let's look at what ThunderTitan said:

Sure it is, it's not like there's a Dimension Door spell or anything.

Would the problem of a Melee Hero charging behind the walls be solved if there were a teleportation animation first? That's logical and consistent within the world; it's a magical world, after all.

So youre saying that even the least magical hero should be able to cast a very high level spell at will?

[ThunderTitan]

Sure it is, it's not like there's a Dimension Door spell or anything.

Would the problem of a Melee Hero charging behind the walls be solved if there were a teleportation animation first? That's logical and consistent within the world; it's a magical world, after all.

That was in response to the hero attacking the walls with a sword. They can attack behind walls because others have a ranged attack, so it's a gameplay issue, and not really meant to be realistic.

But we can come up with an explination to almost anything by using magic, so keeping it realistic is more a matter of choice.

[DaemianLucifer]

Oh thats stupid!Just because its a fantasy world it doesnt mean that there should be no rules!Why do the pikemen attack with pikes instead of shooting magic missiles out of their nostriles?Because its logical!I dont know about you,but Id never buy a game where minotaurs flew and craped bombs on their enemies,while dragons used daggers to attack in melee!

[ThunderTitan]

That's not what i'm saying. It being realistic is better IMO, but you have to put gameplay before realism. We can try and explain the stuff with magic (teleport in this case), but it doesn't change the fact that it was done this way for gameplay reasons (heroes with range attacks).

And they wouldn't be pikemen, they would be Magicboogermen.

[DaemianLucifer]

And they wouldn't be pikemen, they would be Magicboogermen.

Call them what you want.I call them idiotic!