H3: Fav Lvl2 critter.

[ThunderTitan]

Finally diceded on the Dwarf. They're spectacular with a haste spell on them. The magic resistance also does wonders.

[Bandobras Took]

Had to go with Dwarves. Tough melee, Horde dwelling, and magic resistance is a pretty impressive combination.

[Justice]

Marksmen, the harpies probably are better, but I simply hate them to much

[Metathron]

For me it is a tie between the harpy and the wolf rider. Since it has fewer votes, I'll cast my vote for the latter. The rider is a bit weak on defense, but I appreciate their speed and double attack.

[Nucleon]

Oooh, Much more tougher choices there, ponders Nucleon. Let's review them all.

Marksmen; Overhyped. Truth is, they're easy to nullify from mid-game on. They sure are without equals on game start, thought. But they do lose to an equal numbers of Lizard Warriors.

Lizard Warriors; Under-rated, like all Forteress units. They usually last until the rest of the game, their ennemies usually targeting the Dragonflies.

Harpy Hags; Now there's a serious containder. Nucleon always have trouble with these; they're not enough important in their army to deal with first, yet they are supreme irritant, with that range and good damage. Their ugliness is great, too.

Magogs; They Suck.

Zombies; See above.

Battle Dwarf; The perfect exemple of a troop whose role is well-defined. They excel to it, althought they are far from being useful all the time.

Wolf Raiders; So good at dealing damage, and so fast, you lose them in spades if you succomb to the temptation of using them. An unbalanced unit by itself, but with immense potential.

Obsidian Gargoyles; Fine units, by all means, skilled, fast and tough, althought light in dealing damage.

Storm Elemental; The most powerful, without a doubt, being more of a (strong) 3rd level troop after all. They lack in charisma, thinks He.

Rogues; Great, if used with caution. They're better on the adventure map than in actual combat. Nucleon kind of like them.

Boars; Costly, and inferior to the Wolf Raiders in almost all regards, but for health. Yes, they suck.

Nucleon's favorite all around 2nd are (drumroll...) Harpy Hags! Very closely followed by Lizard Warriors and Dwarves, for their great survival factor.

[Banedon]

Marksmen; Overhyped. Truth is, they're easy to nullify from mid-game on. They sure are without equals on game start, thought. But they do lose to an equal numbers of Lizard Warriors.

You know the problem? You have to commit creatures to nullify the Marksmen, and by that you will also have to commit creatures to stand in front of Castle's melee forces. Later in the game having a stack of 250 Marksmen is also terribly intimidating - something that can't be said of for Lizard Warriors.

I also consider Harpy Hags weak, in everything except for castle defense (but even then, I would much rather have an equal stack of Marksmen). They don't fly that fast, they don't deal that much damage and they don't have the Heroes 4 attack-but-don't-fly-back option. Marksmen >> Harpy Hags, in my opinion.

[Nucleon]

You know the problem? You have to commit creatures to nullify the Marksmen, and by that you will also have to commit creatures to stand in front of Castle's melee forces.

Bah, says He. Attacking the Marksmen with anything that can get there in the first and second turn is a winning move; not only did we eliminate a serious threat, but the risks of damaging retaliation are minimal. So send T-birds, Drangonflies, Scorpicores, Master Genies, Wraiths, Efreets Sultans or shoot'em with arrow towers, Archmagi or Grand Elves. As soon as all creature are fielded and castles built (in mid-game), the Marksmen's apport is minimal.

Later in the game having a stack of 250 Marksmen is also terribly intimidating - something that can't be said of for Lizard Warriors.

Yes, and because of that, Lizard warriors last longer. Nucleon goes for the underdog here.

I also consider Harpy Hags weak, in everything except for castle defense (but even then, I would much rather have an equal stack of Marksmen). They don't fly that fast, they don't deal that much damage and they don't have the Heroes 4 attack-but-don't-fly-back option. Marksmen >> Harpy Hags, in my opinion.

Harpy Hags are (relatively) inefficient against shooters, but are excellent overall because the Dungeon's ennemy will target Dragons, Minotaurs, Evil eyes and Medusa queens well before the Hags; They also have a maximum damage of four, wich isn't so weak. The no retaliation attack coupled with respectable resilience makes them units one does not hesitate to send into battle; They sure are a thorn in the ennemy's side.

Also, WoG offer a Harpy Hag player the option to strike and stay. It is Nucleon's opinion that you really should try this patch, Banedon.

[Banedon]

Bah, says He. Attacking the Marksmen with anything that can get there in the first and second turn is a winning move; not only did we eliminate a serious threat, but the risks of damaging retaliation are minimal. So send T-birds, Drangonflies, Scorpicores, Master Genies, Wraiths, Efreets Sultans or shoot'em with arrow towers, Archmagi or Grand Elves. As soon as all creature are fielded and castles built (in mid-game), the Marksmen's apport is minimal.

Maybe the retaliation from the Marksmen won't be serious. But what about the Halberdiers, the Crusaders, the Champions and the Archangels, all waiting there? Send your Dragonflies over an they'd all die before one round; the same applies to any unit you send over. Losing 250 Dragonflies is definitely worse than losing 250 Marksmen.

Yes, and because of that, Lizard warriors last longer. Nucleon goes for the underdog here.

If a unit survives because it is deemed so worthless as never to get targetted, it is a worthless unit.

Harpy Hags are (relatively) inefficient against shooters, but are excellent overall because the Dungeon's ennemy will target Dragons, Minotaurs, Evil eyes and Medusa queens well before the Hags; They also have a maximum damage of four, wich isn't so weak. The no retaliation attack coupled with respectable resilience makes them units one does not hesitate to send into battle; They sure are a thorn in the ennemy's side.

So what does that give you? It's not that Harpy Hags are powerful enough to make a big difference on the battlefield; it's not that they will help Dungeon win should all the other units go down. I argue that it is precisely because of the Marksmen's tendency to attract attacks that makes them so powerful.

[Gaidal Cain]

You know the problem? You have to commit creatures to nullify the Marksmen, and by that you will also have to commit creatures to stand in front of Castle's melee forces. Later in the game having a stack of 250 Marksmen is also terribly intimidating - something that can't be said of for Lizard Warriors.

Actually, all you need is some other ranged unit to make one shot at them and they're crippled. If they lose in a ranged exchange with Lizard Warriors, they'll do that to every other ranged unit as well, with Magogs and Master Gremlins as the only (possible) exceptions. I'd much rather have the Storm Elementals, which does similar damage, but survives much better.

[Pacifist]

I voted for harpy hags but maybe because of their ability to allow superfast development beating very strong neutrals. The problem is always ranged opponents, but then other lv2 have the same problem.

[Nucleon]

Maybe the retaliation from the Marksmen won't be serious. But what about the Halberdiers, the Crusaders, the Champions and the Archangels, all waiting there? Send your Dragonflies over an they'd all die before one round; the same applies to any unit you send over. Losing 250 Dragonflies is definitely worse than losing 250 Marksmen.

Well, friend, that's the name of the game. When one is facing a fully grown army played by an average opponent, one must expect a few losses. The trick is to 1) chose these losses at one's advantage and 2) optimize these losses so that they cost your opponent more.

Losing 250 D-flies is worse than losing the same amount of Marksmen, but is it also a lot harder.

In the Marksmen's case, this "sacrifice" is well worth it. With their ridiculous defense, weaker than most lvl1 troops, the Marksmen can be, must be dispatched before they do their respectable damage. And besides, if the rest of Castle's grunts insist on attacking the Marksmen's aggressor, well, the other side will not have to bother about its own shooters being attacked. No problems here.

If a unit survives because it is deemed so worthless as never to get targetted, it is a worthless unit.

Maybe it is because they're just under-rated. Did you install the company's patches on your H3 game? Lizard Warriors have now attacks of 6, damage of 2-5 and health of 15 (among other changes). They are no slouches, Nucleon assure you.

So what does that give you? It's not that Harpy Hags are powerful enough to make a big difference on the battlefield; it's not that they will help Dungeon win should all the other units go down. I argue that it is precisely because of the Marksmen's tendency to attract attacks that makes them so powerful.

Nucleon thinks that having such a vital yet fragile troops is the disavantage here. Marksmen are good versus neutral stacks of lvl 1-2 creatures or those with a speed inferior to 6. Anything else above that waits a turn before shredding them to pieces in one swift stroke.

Case in point; Familiars, the weakest creature in the game after Pissants for crying out loud, are able to dispatch them in combat! You don't beleive Nucleon? Just try it; 9 Marksmen vs 23-23 familiars. The familiars win with 10-11 troops left -quite easily, by all means. With nine Lizard Warriors instead of Marksmen, Forteress wins with 3 survivors left.

The Harpy Hags are great to have, no as vital as the Marksmen, but they are so during all of the game. Plus, you don't mind if you lose some of them, whereas when it happens to the Marskmen it is a tragedy.

[Vlad976]

vote Storm Elementals
I like getting in the first shot.(among the lvl 2's anyways...)

[Banedon]

Actually, all you need is some other ranged unit to make one shot at them and they're crippled. If they lose in a ranged exchange with Lizard Warriors, they'll do that to every other ranged unit as well, with Magogs and Master Gremlins as the only (possible) exceptions. I'd much rather have the Storm Elementals, which does similar damage, but survives much better.

Let us consider the possible choices. Using Titans, Cyclops Kings and Power Liches to aim at Marksmen - a level 2 unit - is rather a waste, and they would be better off attacking Castle's higher-tier units. Orc Chieftains, Magogs and Master Gremlins move slower than Marksmen, allowing them one free shot. Storm Elementals and Grand Elves are the only real threats, but they should be threats, seeing that they are equally powerful Ranged units.

Losing 250 D-flies is worse than losing the same am

ount of Marksmen, but is it also a lot harder.

In the Marksmen's case, this "sacrifice" is well worth it. With their ridiculous defense, weaker than most lvl1 troops, the Marksmen can be, must be dispatched before they do their respectable damage. And besides, if the rest of Castle's grunts insist on attacking the Marksmen's aggressor, well, the other side will not have to bother about its own shooters being attacked. No problems here.

I do not think the Dragonflies can withstand damage from all the above mentioned units - they will all die in a round. And that's not all. Because the rest of Fortress's units move so slowly and because it is imperative to block the Marksmen, the Dragonflies will be alone, and they will die. This also applies to other races. Take Inferno, for example. With two fast units in Archdevils and Efreet Sultans, Inferno will take out all the Marksmen in the first round if need be. But that would place its most important units within range of everyone else. After the Halberdiers absorb the Archdevil's retaliation, everyone would pound on them, and the battle would be over. Think about it from another point of view. Would you delight if you're the Fortress player and I send my Archangels over to block your Lizard Warriors in the very first round?

As for not having to worry about shooters, that is irrelevant - Lizard Warriors are hardly as threatening as Marksmen and Zealots; if one side must charge, it is Fortress, not Castle.

Maybe it is because they're just under-rated. Did you install the company's patches on your H3 game? Lizard Warriors have now attacks of 6, damage of 2-5 and health of 15 (among other changes). They are no slouches, Nucleon assure you.

I did. They're still not as good as Marksmen though, in my opinion.

Nucleon thinks that having such a vital yet fragile troops is the disavantage here. Marksmen are good versus neutral stacks of lvl 1-2 creatures or those with a speed inferior to 6. Anything else above that waits a turn before shredding them to pieces in one swift stroke.

I would correct that. Only if the speed of that neutral is greater than 7 and it is ranged would it be a threat. There aren't many of such low-level shooters, and against the higher level ones everyone would suffer.

Case in point; Familiars, the weakest creature in the game after Pissants for crying out loud, are able to dispatch them in combat! You don't beleive Nucleon? Just try it; 9 Marksmen vs 23-23 familiars. The familiars win with 10-11 troops left -quite easily, by all means. With nine Lizard Warriors instead of Marksmen, Forteress wins with 3 survivors left.

This isn't crafted correctly. As a Ranged unit, the Marksmen should not come under attack, excepting very fast fliers who accept a risk (like Dragon Flies) or other Ranged units. Against this army of 23 Familiars, give me 9 Marksmen and 6 Pikemen and I would win with no losses to the Marksmen.

[Nucleon]

Nucleon recognize here -and appreciate- Banedon's pugnacious nature.

I do not think the Dragonflies can withstand damage from all the above mentioned units - they will all die in a round. And that's not all. Because the rest of Fortress's units move so slowly and because it is imperative to block the Marksmen, the Dragonflies will be alone, and they will die. This also applies to other races. Take Inferno, for example. With two fast units in Archdevils and Efreet Sultans, Inferno will take out all the Marksmen in the first round if need be. But that would place its most important units within range of everyone else. After the Halberdiers absorb the Archdevil's retaliation, everyone would pound on them, and the battle would be over.

That's not how one uses Dragonflies, or any fast unit, versus shooters. Skip-then-strike techniques works best in this case, even thought said shooters will have a free shot, usually at maximum range for insignificant damage.

And if in battle your role as Castle is to protect the Marksmen, well, you will lose the bigger picture. Who shall protect the Monks, a much more valuable ranged unit?

Think about it from another point of view. Would you delight if you're the Fortress player and I send my Archangels over to block your Lizard Warriors in the very first round?

Yes, Nucleon sure will. However, the chance that the Archangels target the Lizwars is thin; They will most probably attack the Hydras or the Wyverns. Because the Lizardmen are not a cornerstone unit of the Forteress, and are much more resilient to begin with. But if they do, well, at least their attack has passed. The show shall go on.

As for not having to worry about shooters, that is irrelevant - Lizard Warriors are hardly as threatening as Marksmen and Zealots; if one side must charge, it is Fortress, not Castle.

Lizwars are okay to finish off what the Gorgons and Hydras already crippled. They are an efficient, durable support troop. When one plays Forteress, chances are one already put a big "X" on ranged attacks as a base strategy.

Having a ranged attack is not the end of all things in H3.

I would correct that. Only if the speed of that neutral is greater than 7 and it is ranged would it be a threat. There aren't many of such low-level shooters, and against the higher level ones everyone would suffer.

Error; A speed of precisely seven (greater than six, therefore) is what it takes to successfully make a skip-then-attack on whatever is at the other side of the battlefield.

This isn't crafted correctly. As a Ranged unit, the Marksmen should not come under attack, excepting very fast fliers who accept a risk (like Dragon Flies) or other Ranged units. Against this army of 23 Familiars, give me 9 Marksmen and 6 Pikemen and I would win with no losses to the Marksmen.

There, you do it again; you bring various and arbitrary external elements to what is basically a simple, objective observation; The Marksman are too frail to survive late in the game; One way or another, a stack, any stack, will get to them and dispose of them in a nick of time.

That being said, Marksmen are indeed a most useful troop at game starts; They just no enough balanced to survive long in the game, but still they reveal themselves useful if bought to the last minute to defend their town. It's better than nothing.

[Banedon]

That's not how one uses Dragonflies, or any fast unit, versus shooters. Skip-then-strike techniques works best in this case, even thought said shooters will have a free shot, usually at maximum range for insignificant damage.

And if in battle your role as Castle is to protect the Marksmen, well, you will lose the bigger picture. Who shall protect the Monks, a much more valuable ranged unit?

Even if you do that, the Dragonflies would still be there the second round for the killing. At the very least, the Archangels would get an attack, since chances are good the Archangels won't have a target in the first round.

As for the Monks, the strategy is simple. Put the Monks and the Marksmen in a corner, then only barricade them in. You protect both in one move.

Yes, Nucleon sure will. However, the chance that the Archangels target the Lizwars is thin; They will most probably attack the Hydras or the Wyverns. Because the Lizardmen are not a cornerstone unit of the Forteress, and are much more resilient to begin with. But if they do, well, at least their attack has passed. The show shall go on.

Then, I use the same spin to counter your arguments. Marksmen are not a cornerstone unit of Castle - all of Castle's units are strong and powerful. Take out Marksmen and Castle still has many possibilities.

Error; A speed of precisely seven (greater than six, therefore) is what it takes to successfully make a skip-then-attack on whatever is at the other side of the battlefield.

No, it's a speed of around 13. Marksmen, with a speed of 6, cannot move halfway across the map in one round.

There, you do it again; you bring various and arbitrary external elements to what is basically a simple, objective observation; The Marksman are too frail to survive late in the game; One way or another, a stack, any stack, will get to them and dispose of them in a nick of time.

They may be frail, but it's a good form of fragility. Because of Castle's powerful forces, to exploit their fragility one needs to commit creatures on a suicide mission. I hope you see the dangers - you can kill them, but it would mean you lose more in the equation.

[Gaidal Cain]

Actually, all you need is some other ranged unit to make one shot at them and they're crippled. If they lose in a ranged exchange with Lizard Warriors, they'll do that to every other ranged unit as well, with Magogs and Master Gremlins as the only (possible) exceptions. I'd much rather have the Storm Elementals, which does similar damage, but survives much better.

Let us consider the possible choices. Using Titans, Cyclops Kings and Power Liches to aim at Marksmen - a level 2 unit - is rather a waste, and they would be better off attacking Castle's higher-tier units. Orc Chieftains, Magogs and Master Gremlins move slower than Marksmen, allowing them one free shot. Storm Elementals and Grand Elves are the only real threats, but they should be threats, seeing that they are equally powerful Ranged units.

Let's not forget Beholders, Medusae, Magi and Ice Elementals. Also, the Liches might very well be able to target another valuable stack standing near the Marksmen- especially if you're turtling. This means that almost every town has a ranged unit capable of dealing with the marksmen... And the point is that these are extra large threats to the marksmen, who have high attack but almost no defense, whereas a fast flyer for example could be killed by supporting creatures.

They may be frail, but it's a good form of fragility. Because of Castle's powerful forces, to exploit their fragility one needs to commit creatures on a suicide mission. I hope you see the dangers - you can kill them, but it would mean you lose more in the equation.

So you're saying that you'd rather have a ranged units that's powerful on the attack, but severely lacking in defense, than one that's almost as good at attack, but more than twice as good at defending?

[Banedon]

I must say Beholders, Medusae, Magi and Ice Elementals are all good creatures, and they will certainly hurt Marksmen. But aside from Tower, I don't think any town would sit back and enjoy a Ranged duel with Castle, especially since the Archangels would do wait-hit-return runs on the other side.

So you're saying that you'd rather have a ranged units that's powerful on the attack, but severely lacking in defense, than one that's almost as good at attack, but more than twice as good at defending?

Yes I would prefer such a unit, but I do not think Lizard Warriors are almost as good at attacking.

[Gaidal Cain]

Yes I would prefer such a unit, but I do not think Lizard Warriors are almost as good at attacking.

Storm Elementals are

[Pol]

Yes I would prefer such a unit, but I do not think Lizard Warriors are almost as good at attacking.

I guess that you still haven't your Armageddon Blade CD ok? Marksmen aren't so strong units, especially when they aren't fighting on theirs native terrain. In this case they will possibly fail to L.W., and they are also weaker then comparative number of S.E.. They may also failed easily to O.G when fight on snow etc.... look like you overestimated them a litte

Later in the game ranged duels aren't likely to happen and Magi, Medusas, Beholder have additional values which Marksmen cannot compensate.

[Nucleon]

Even if you do that, the Dragonflies would still be there the second round for the killing. At the very least, the Archangels would get an attack, since chances are good the Archangels won't have a target in the first round.

As Nucleon "said", He is ready to take losses if what He inflicted on the ennemy is worth it. In this specific, Forteress case, Dragonflies are used as soon as they can to weaken the oppo's powerful units, while, say, the Greater Basiliks skip-and-strike troops just like the Marksmen, irritant on offense but puny on defense.

What happens elsewhere on the battlefield is too much of a variable at this point.

As for the Monks, the strategy is simple. Put the Monks and the Marksmen in a corner, then only barricade them in. You protect both in one move.

And then comes the Hydras. A skip-and-strike technique puts them exactly next to your shooting stacks, nullifying all your ranged attacks.

Then, I use the same spin to counter your arguments. Marksmen are not a cornerstone unit of Castle - all of Castle's units are strong and powerful. Take out Marksmen and Castle still has many possibilities.

I agree that Castle has many good troops, a good thing since the Marsmen are so fragile. However, because of their relative efficiency in attack, Castle players are tempted to bring them in big battles, where they often prone their frailty. That's not the same thing with the much maligned Lizard Warriors.

No, it's a speed of around 13. Marksmen, with a speed of 6, cannot move halfway across the map in one round.

Nucleon "said"; With a skip-and-strike technique. 7 is the magic number to do that. 6, if the target is a two-hex creature. Thus, in Forteress'case, Greater Basiliks are able to cross the battlefield to strike at shooters.

They may be frail, but it's a good form of fragility. Because of Castle's powerful forces, to exploit their fragility one needs to commit creatures on a suicide mission. I hope you see the dangers - you can kill them, but it would mean you lose more in the equation.

Banedon's got a point here; A good army checks out for some of its member's weaker points. However, if the said troops is to be used as bait, Nucleon would prefer it to be a first lvl troop, like Master Grems, Gobs and Imps.

He wouldn't chose as best units of its level a creature that serve this particular purpose, however.

Yes I would prefer such a unit, but I do not think Lizard Warriors are almost as good at attacking.

Lizard Warriors are slower, but they have the same attack skill, and deal a damage that can go up to 5, while the Marksmen's can reach 2x 3 in damage. That's barely one more.