H3: Are certain heroes too good?

[Derek]

By all means! I challenge you to play a serious game against csarmi. Like I said, if you win, I'll shut up and accept all you say as gospel. One condition: you must allow csarmi to use a Logistics specialist.

A Gunnar, how you run the whole length of the map so easily...

[Nucleon]

By all means! I challenge you to play a serious game against csarmi. Like I said, if you win, I'll shut up and accept all you say as gospel. One condition: you must allow csarmi to use a Logistics specialist.

So, you challenge Nucleon to play versus... another guy than yourself?

Oooo, Big Man! Afraid of the noob?



For a moment there, Nucleon thought you were any good... Now He knows exactly what you are good for; Yappin'. From now on, you should accept all what of Nucleon says as gospel anyway.

(FYI: Csarmi looks every bit as enthusastic to take on the noob as you are, making you a fine pair.)

[Corribus]

From what I know of csarmi, in a fair competition csarmi would probably be eating Nucleon for supper. csarmi studies the tactics of this game like investors study the stock market.

[csarmi]

Sorry to dissapoint you guys, but I'm currently not planning on playing any heroes game. It's simply not worth my time.

Sample saves (day 1 - day 7) for what I call playing heroes 3 of some level.

http://www.math.bme.hu/~csarmasz/heroes3

When you can do better than that everytime you try and play, then you are some player.

It's a usual map btw.

edited to correct the link

[Pol]

So, you challenge Nucleon to play versus... another guy than yourself?

That was mostly complimentary phrase. No need to so happily dancing about Play against Banedon if you wish and he will have the time.

You will possibly discover that Banedon has plenty of patience and courtesy. (and csarmi not, but he is better)

Myself I don't know if that counts in Homm3, I play this game for fun or from my own motives, and it not looks like complicated game whatsoever. It's very simple and clean. So once everyone may rule that world.... - and no one will be the only king.

[Derek]

Sorry to dissapoint you guys, but I'm currently not planning on playing any heroes game. It's simply not worth my time.

Sample saves (day 1 - day 7) for what I call playing heroes 3 of some level.

http://www.math.bme.hu/~csarmasz/heroes

When you can do better than that everytime you try and play, then you are some player.

It's a usual map btw.

Link isn't working Csarmi.

And Nucleon, you should go and have a round against Banedon. It seems like that's the only fair thing to do at this point.

[Banedon]

By all means! I challenge you to play a serious game against csarmi. Like I said, if you win, I'll shut up and accept all you say as gospel. One condition: you must allow csarmi to use a Logistics specialist.

So, you challenge Nucleon to play versus... another guy than yourself?

Oooo, Big Man! Afraid of the noob?

I don't mind duelling you myself. I'll admit it's been some time since I last seriously played Heroes 3, but I do think I will still win.

However, Corribus put it well - csarmi studies this game like investors study the stock market. If you play him, chances are good he'll build up an even larger margin of victory than I can, which will be more...convincing, if you will.

What map do you want to play? I'll familiarize myself with it before we duel.

[SmokingBarrel]

Something I don't get, and that is how are the two of you going to duel?

If the two of you duel, is it fair if I cut in and help my bro?

[Banedon]

Here are the terms I set out:

1. The map shall be "All For One".
2. I shall use a Logistics Specialist and either Dungeon or Rampart.
3. The three spells Town Portal, Fly and Dimension Door are banned.
4. Any movement-boosting artifact is banned.

I ask everyone if these terms are fair.

[wimfrits]

Seems fair to me.

[Banedon]

I noticed a problem when I searched through the map just now.

There exists a Seers Hut whose quest reward is the spell Dimension Door. This renders the map difficult to play, for whichever side gets the spell (with the complementary Air Magic) becomes unbeatable.

Nucleon, I therefore ask you to do one of two things:

1. Remove that Seers Hut.
2. Refrain from casting the spell even if you get it.

It seems necessary to edit the map such that NO mage guild will give either of the three above spells. Another thing to note is what difficulty to play in. I suggest either Hard or Expert.

Nucleon, while I searched through the map one thing sprang out at me - your choice of the map All for One indicates that you have spent many a delightful moment casting Dimension Door three times to hunt down your foes. I do not disagree that that is fun - you are, after all, a cat chasing a mouse. But I do think that it makes the game unpalatable. After all, if I am the one with Dimension Door and you do not have it, you will suffer.

Expert Dimension Door is even more broken than Logistics. If you do not agree to remove it, I will rather not duel you.

[csarmi]

I would say no diplo/cartographer either.
Hard difficulty sounds best, but expert is nice too.
And it's easy to edit the Seer's Hut.

[Pol]

Impossible is yet better if you add the start resources event/check.

[Nucleon]

First, let Nucleon salute Banedon's willingness. Here are Nucleon preliminary terms, offered by e-mail to Banedon:

1-Ban artefacts; Shackles of War, Angel Wings, Boots of Levitation (also ban "Water Walk"), Spellbinder's Hat as well as the four Tomes of Magic.

2-Ban all extension heroes, including Sir Mullich (maybe irrelevant, since we play RoE).

(Concerning the bans; It does not look as if it is possible to effectively ban something out of a RoE map; Re-formatting to AB could also bring the problem of having Storm Elementals as neutral second lvl troops, which can be potentially disruptive. Suggestions?)

3-Nucleon choses Red, and a Diplomacy hero from either Rampart, Tower or Castle (Banedon didn't have anything against using them considering that the point was brought up with him in this thread). However, if Banadon choses Rampart, Nucleon shall not take chose that town.

This will be, essentially, a game between the two most often banned types of heroes.

This was not send to Banedon yet, but Nucleon offers to replace the D-Door spell given at a Seer's Hut by "Magic Mirror", "Sacrifice" or "Implosion". As this Seer's Hut is closest to Red, Nucleon shall let Banedon decide, thought.

Finally, we will need some tips on how to establish a TCP/IP connection, as both Banedon and Nucleon have no wealth of experience to Internet play. Help and suggestions would be appreciated.

EDIT; "Expert" seems to Nucleon like a correct difficulty setting, also.

[Nucleon]

If the two of you duel, is it fair if I cut in and help my bro?

As a rule, you should always help out your brother.

[wimfrits]

This will be, essentially, a game between the two most often banned types of heroes.

Errrr... I thought your original claim was that there is no need to ban logistics specialists.

To test that theory, the match should be between a logistics specialist and a 'regular' hero.
Diplomacy heroes are usually banned, so you can't choose a diplomacy hero if you want to defend your point of view.

Or are you testing another theory?

[Nucleon]

Errrr... I thought your original claim was that there is no need to ban logistics specialists.

That was effectively Nucleon's claim. Nucleon would rather ban the "Diplomacy" skill altogheter. He doesn't mind Logisticians, and He might well end up with a hired (as opposed to "starting") one.

To test that theory, the match should be between a logistics specialist and a 'regular' hero.
Diplomacy heroes are usually banned, so you can't choose a diplomacy hero if you want to defend your point of view.

Are Logistic heroes also "usually" banned? If that's the case, Nucleon don't see why he shouldn't take a Diplomat. His point (to the effect that He wouldn't ban Logistic specialists, as some heroes seem better as starting ones) still holds water.

Neither should you expect Nucleon to continually run around with one single stack of troops, althought if the circumstances call for it, he might.

Or are you testing another theory?

More than any other thing, Nucleon will test Banedon's theory that advances that Nucleon is a noob. These were fighting words, as Nucleon will not accept being thus slurred. It shall be washed in the virtual blood of our respective troops.

[wimfrits]

Are Logistic heroes also "usually" banned? If that's the case, Nucleon don't see why he shouldn't take a Diplomat. His point (to the effect that He wouldn't ban Logistic specialists, as some heroes seem better as starting ones) still holds water.

No, it doesn't.
If you claim a wolf is not better than a chicken you should take a chicken to fight against a wolf to test it. Not a tiger.

On a fight between a Diplomat and a Logistics-specialist:
- if you win; it says nothing about the theory.
- if Banedon wins; it suggests that your theory was wrong.
Either way, you cannot prove your theory this way.

More than any other thing, Nucleon will test Banedon's theory that advances that Nucleon is a noob. These were fighting words, as Nucleon will not accept being thus slurred. It shall be washed in the virtual blood of our respective troops.

That I can understand.

Though I don't understand your grudge against Banedon. He's been very respectful in his posts imo.

[Nucleon]

If you claim a wolf is not better than a chicken you should take a chicken to fight against a wolf to test it. Not a tiger.

On a fight between a Diplomat and a Logistics-specialist:
- if you win; it says nothing about the theory.
- if Banedon wins; it suggests that your theory was wrong.
Either way, you cannot prove your theory this way.

From the earliest posts we've done on this thread, Banedon claimed that Logisticians should be banned, because they assure almost-certain victory. They are not on Nucleon's ban list, however, and as better starting heroes he presented Diplomats, ressource-bringers and 1st lvl creature specialists. Go check and see, it is there somewhere.

Never did Banedon agreed that Diplomats should be banned, even venturing to say that so many "diplomized" creatures would bring a lower morale to one's army. If he ever said that Diplomats were also a problem, Nucleon would have agree, but that was not the case.

Though I don't understand your grudge against Banedon. He's been very respectful in his posts imo.

That was also Nucleon's opinion, and He had a real interesting, civil discussion with Banedon up until he claimed Nucleon was a noob, just after csarmi specified what he intended by this very insult he brought. And it wasn't nice.

Nucleon positively hates undue competition, but at 40, he learned that sometimes you've got to make a stand, and shove a bit if one's wanted to get there. After that, this board shall have a more precise opinion about what Nucleon is able.

[wimfrits]

Never did Banedon agreed that Diplomats should be banned, even venturing to say that so many "diplomized" creatures would bring a lower morale to one's army. If he ever said that Diplomats were also a problem, Nucleon would have agree, but that was not the case.

You're right in a way.
Still, you won't be testing the validity of the general consensus on banned heroes. Only that of you and Banedon. That is, if Banedon thinks diplomacy is not overpowered.

That was also Nucleon's opinion, and He had a real interesting, civil discussion with Banedon up until he claimed Nucleon was a noob, just after csarmi specified what he intended by this very insult he brought. And it wasn't nice.

I understand your feeling.