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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 20 Jun 2007, 22:53

winterfate wrote:@Corribus: Low blow!
Yeah I bet that's what the little kiddies would be thinking, too. :devil:

Ok, I'll stop now. :)
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Unread postby winterfate » 20 Jun 2007, 23:08

:lolu: :rofl:

This conversation is just so wrong, on so many levels. :devil:
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Unread postby jeff » 20 Jun 2007, 23:28

I teach in a public school here in the US after 21 years in the USAF. I have frequently pointed out to my colleagues, much to their dismay, that the education system's failings are largely the fault of the school system themselves. The schools have lost so many law suits that common sense says they should have won. This has made enforcing discipline close to impossible. Why well the students’ lawyers prey on the fact most educators bend over so far to accommodate their students that educators accidentally set precedence of not enforcing rules that should have been enforced. So the lawyer goes to court and says why this time and the judge agrees why enforce the rule this time when in the past you haven’t. So the compassion many teachers have for the student comes back and bites them in the a$$. Thereby the only way to enforce something is to make it a blanket unbending rule. In many ways the school should not be blamed, but the parents and lawyers that took advantage of caring teachers.
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Omega_Destroyer
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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 20 Jun 2007, 23:55

If rules are promulgated and not followed, how can anybody be surprised when a court construes silence as acquiescence?
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Unread postby jeff » 21 Jun 2007, 00:07

Omega_Destroyer wrote:If rules are promulgated and not followed, how can anybody be surprised when a court construes silence as acquiescence?
Beware what you wish for, a school that enforces all rules blind and without consideration would be a harsh environment to learn in. You probably would agree that the rules should not be enforced without considering the circumstances surrounding the offense. The problem has become students who have parents that hire lawyers get away with far more than students with parents that cannot afford them. All of this leads to administrators who are afraid to enforce anything but the vilest offenses. Parents not the schools are the biggest culprit as many avoid accepting the responsibility of their child’s actions.
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Unread postby asandir » 21 Jun 2007, 00:15

winter wrote:@Stefan: What I mean is that I am using an expression you would normally use.
and when did I normally use that phrase? :)
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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 21 Jun 2007, 00:23

I agree with you on that one. Personal accountability is rare these days. My sister is a reading specialist who runs into parents who are irrate their kids are going to be held back due to poor reading skills. They blame the schools and not the fact that they think spending 20 minutes a day to help their kid with homework is a waste. :disagree:
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Unread postby asandir » 21 Jun 2007, 00:31

personal responsibility is just too easily and regularly abrogated .... it's a shame
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Unread postby Caradoc » 21 Jun 2007, 01:07

It all comes down to economics. Doing public education on the cheap results in poor instruction and poor administration. Better educators would require less regulation...and less regulation might attract better educators. Pay educators like professionals instead of like service providers and many of the problems will disappear.

The US education system was based on low-cost female labor. School teaching was "women's work" and greatly undervalued in the labor market. (Same for nursing and healthcare, but that's another story.) Educational costs were artificially low and budgets set accordingly. But as women have found other better (but not equally) paying jobs, the talent pool for education has been diluted. Communities refuse to pay for good educators, preferring to keep taxes low and to plough revenues into brick and mortar rather than pay. (Incidentally, the 'voucher' plan is destined to see the same effect as the supply of low-cost nuns will not expand to meet increased demand.)
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Unread postby jeff » 21 Jun 2007, 01:34

Unfortunately most of what you say is true, many people would be surprised how many parents are more worried about the free child care schools provide instead of the quality of the education.

The voucher plans are unfair, as most of the schools that are 'better' are not held to the same standard as public schools. I would go along with a voucher plan if the gaining schools had the same restrictions. Example: If you take the student with the voucher, you must keep them for the entire year, regardless of their academic or disciplinary records. Short of being arrested for a felony offense we can’t expel a student, and then the district has to pay to school them either at their home or the detention center. How many private schools would take students with vouchers if they were forced to provide that type of service.
Last edited by Anonymous on 21 Jun 2007, 01:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby asandir » 21 Jun 2007, 01:39

I'm not surprised by that, but it's certainly not what I'm looking for in a school
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Unread postby Corribus » 21 Jun 2007, 03:32

@Caradoc

Nice description... I'd have to agree with your assessment of education. And I don't think NCLB is the answer.
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Unread postby theLuckyDragon » 21 Jun 2007, 04:26

@Caradoc
A similar thing has been happening in Romania for several years. Salaries are horrible for anybody who isn't a University Professor. Beginner's salaries are downright miserable. Talented people get better jobs, so the schools are left to those who 1) don't really know their subjects properly and 2) don't know how to teach properly. Sure, there is the occasional person who wants to get into education and is really good at doing their job, but those people are extremely few.

Plus, we get a new minister of Education every school year or so and each one comes with his/her grand ideas of reforming the system. IIRC, we've switched 2 or 3 Baccalaureate exam types since 2000 and another one is going to be implemented this year.
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Unread postby Caradoc » 21 Jun 2007, 04:58

When I become King, top teachers will be paid like doctors and lawyers -- ie commensurate with their advanced degrees. Administrators will be paid like government officials. There will be no more school districts. Schools will be funded out of general revenues, not local property taxes. The only universal testing will be a European-style baccalaureate required for a diploma.

We will have an 8 hour school day, 12 months a year. The summer months will be structured as four 3-week blocks of which three must be attended. Students may substitute special studies programs for summer blocks. We will have a 4 day school week with the 5th day available for vocational training, religious instruction, extracurricular activities, or public service. For teachers, this day will be used for preparation and curriculum development. Homework will be optional.
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Unread postby winterfate » 21 Jun 2007, 05:05

:scared:

And what'll you do when everybody starts deserting because of the 12 month school year? :D
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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 21 Jun 2007, 06:30

Caradoc wrote:Homework will be optional.
So in other words, no homework.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Unread postby winterfate » 21 Jun 2007, 06:53

Woho...no homework!!!

Yes....

Um...Omega, aren't you going to disagree with Caradoc's preposterous proposition? :)

It'll drive the kids to the ground!

(Good thing it doesn't affect me anymore...:devious:)
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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 21 Jun 2007, 07:26

What am I suppose to disagree with?
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Unread postby Panda Tar » 21 Jun 2007, 11:47

Caradoc wrote:Homework will be optional.
I'd rather like just having homework. Nothing better than making things at home or somewhere else than stuck in a room.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 21 Jun 2007, 22:19

theLuckyDragon wrote: Plus, we get a new minister of Education every school year or so and each one comes with his/her grand ideas of reforming the system.
And the latest one asked a bunch of kids how many stars did the EU flag had and then told them they're wrong when they answered 12. I love politics.

OD wrote:They blame the schools and not the fact that they think spending 20 minutes a day to help their kid with homework is a waste.
20 minutes? My grandmother just made me spend X minutes (been a long time) doing homework everyday, while she did something else. Parents need to learn to make their kids do some homework, keep them used to learning.
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