Yes, exactly.
You'll slip Griffins in while waiting to get the wood needed for the Champions, and you'll slip the Cerberi in while you are waiting for the Merc for all the upgrades, Mage Guildds and Devil buyings.
HoMM III: Best level 3 creature
But sooner or later you use them aren't you? At least I do. And when it comes, they can make some differences.Jolly Joker wrote:Yes, exactly.
You'll slip Griffins in while waiting to get the wood needed for the Champions, and you'll slip the Cerberi in while you are waiting for the Merc for all the upgrades, Mage Guildds and Devil buyings.
"Rage against the system, the system, what kills the human spirit."
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Jolly Joker
- Round Table Hero
- Posts: 3316
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I voted Grand Elves because they synergize very well with other troops and the fact that in H3 shooters + bodyguards are often unfairly powerful.
There are several awesome creatures here though. The Royal Griffin and Dragon Flys are simply too good to ignore. I esp. love the fast creatures with specials
There are several awesome creatures here though. The Royal Griffin and Dragon Flys are simply too good to ignore. I esp. love the fast creatures with specials
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BoardGuest808888
- Round Table Knight
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BoardGuest808888
- Round Table Knight
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Jolly Joker
- Round Table Hero
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BigThingWithHolesInIt
- Peasant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 06 Feb 2008
I voted Royal Griffins.
It was amusing to read the whole "blocking" argument, but I think the Best Level X Creature is the creature of that level who is the most useful throughout a game. So despite many good points made against them, I still think Grand Elves are a legitimate contender. They have bad defense stats compared to the others, but they shoot i.e. they deal free damage. That really evens out a lot. Besides, every town has shooter units and blocking them is always obligatory, except maybe for Fortress.
So we can assume that shooters will get their free damage, they will perish quick if the fight lasts long enough but you'll have to grant them at least two rounds of free play. That would put them on par with the average level 3 unit at least, but now their special comes into play - and they just made it to the elite league of the level.
What it boiled down to with me, is that a final showdown on a big map means a battle of many turns, and only then does the total damage of Cerberi and Royal Griffins really exceed the Grand Elves' - while otherwise it will be about on par. Cerberi deal free damage due to their special, but the difference is that they will still be in the heat of battle (and a likely target for shooters due to their dangerous retaliation). Griffins don't deal free damage by default, but are designed to last in the heat of battle.
Listing would be something like this:
1. Royal Griffins (great with no ifs, one of the most consistent damage dealers in the game)
2. Cerberi (great with a few ifs)
3. Grand Elves (superb initial damage)
4. Dragon Flies (best harasser in the game, but harassers have slightly more limited use)
5. Evil Eyes (solid shooter with a heavy retaliation - it needs immediate attention of a higher level flier, which helps Dungeon's grunts advance - but when it's disabled it won't have caused as many losses as the Grand Elves would in that time)
6. Iron Golems (great time-buyers)
7. Ice Elementals (probably, I never play Conflux, growth hurts I suppose)
8. Orc Chieftains (a gimped shooter, but still a shooter)
9. Wraiths (mildly convenient early- to mid-game, after that good for kamikaze attacks and not much more)[/b]
It was amusing to read the whole "blocking" argument, but I think the Best Level X Creature is the creature of that level who is the most useful throughout a game. So despite many good points made against them, I still think Grand Elves are a legitimate contender. They have bad defense stats compared to the others, but they shoot i.e. they deal free damage. That really evens out a lot. Besides, every town has shooter units and blocking them is always obligatory, except maybe for Fortress.
So we can assume that shooters will get their free damage, they will perish quick if the fight lasts long enough but you'll have to grant them at least two rounds of free play. That would put them on par with the average level 3 unit at least, but now their special comes into play - and they just made it to the elite league of the level.
What it boiled down to with me, is that a final showdown on a big map means a battle of many turns, and only then does the total damage of Cerberi and Royal Griffins really exceed the Grand Elves' - while otherwise it will be about on par. Cerberi deal free damage due to their special, but the difference is that they will still be in the heat of battle (and a likely target for shooters due to their dangerous retaliation). Griffins don't deal free damage by default, but are designed to last in the heat of battle.
Listing would be something like this:
1. Royal Griffins (great with no ifs, one of the most consistent damage dealers in the game)
2. Cerberi (great with a few ifs)
3. Grand Elves (superb initial damage)
4. Dragon Flies (best harasser in the game, but harassers have slightly more limited use)
5. Evil Eyes (solid shooter with a heavy retaliation - it needs immediate attention of a higher level flier, which helps Dungeon's grunts advance - but when it's disabled it won't have caused as many losses as the Grand Elves would in that time)
6. Iron Golems (great time-buyers)
7. Ice Elementals (probably, I never play Conflux, growth hurts I suppose)
8. Orc Chieftains (a gimped shooter, but still a shooter)
9. Wraiths (mildly convenient early- to mid-game, after that good for kamikaze attacks and not much more)[/b]
Work + bored = more posts. So let's dig again.
This time it looks like a contest between Cerberi, Dragonflies, Grand Elves and Royal Griffins. It's a tough contest really, and much more interesting than level 2.
The cerberi have problems with growth. Makes me wonder why they gave Inferno a structure that boosts their growth when the base growth is so small that even with the boost it doesn't reach the standard growth of 14. This alone in my opinion drops it from the contest, because being a groundpounding melee unit it's bound to take some losses. I typically don't use them in the beginning for this reason, and buy them much later once they have accumulated somewhat, and I have other troops that'll keep the enemy busier. Decent stats, good special, good speed but the lack in growth really hurts.
Dragonflies are very good in their context and are definitely a key unit to Fortress. What they do lack is combat prowess but they make up for it in other areas. The speed is very important early game and the special abilities are nice although not that useful. Still, due to the rather low hit points and damage output per weekly growth, they can't really challenge the mighty griffins in combat. Overall very useful, and better than cerberi for this reason.
Grand Elves are much like Marksmen, except they're quite a bit better. The damage output is huge and they have okay speed. They are an absolute key unit to Rampart at early stages of the game and played well play an important role all the way. I find your earlier argument rather hilarious, sorry. Of course everything has to be evaluated in context, standalone means nothing. The elves are an excellent force and one of the best damage dealers in the game. They are not a long-lasting unit though, and careless playing gets them diminished to a level where they no longer pose a threat. Due to their absolute position in the build chain of Rampart and all these other factors, I'll vote for them.
Statwise the RG is awesome, mostly thanks to its nice +3 growth. They are however not as much in a key role as flies or elves but definitely a grand force when they're bought (I don't get them in the beginning because I delay the upgrade.) I usually bring them in once I need the mass that comes with them: 425 HP per week is hardly a laughing matter and the damage, while invidually weak, really piles up with that growth. The unlimited retaliation is a very nice bonus too for blocking. If I bring them out too early though, their numbers usually diminish somewhat, so I prefer waiting. A huge stack of griffons is definitely scary, especially if there's no shooters or no-retaliation-melees to take kill some off from top of the stack. They are still not as important to Castle as Grand Elves are to Rampart or Dragonflies to Fortress, so they're not winning this contest. This just goes to show that Castle is really powerful (and Rampart and Fortress rather weak).
The decision was really though, and the final outcome is highly dependent on the map, but generally I'd prefer the elves. So the elves it is then.
This time it looks like a contest between Cerberi, Dragonflies, Grand Elves and Royal Griffins. It's a tough contest really, and much more interesting than level 2.
The cerberi have problems with growth. Makes me wonder why they gave Inferno a structure that boosts their growth when the base growth is so small that even with the boost it doesn't reach the standard growth of 14. This alone in my opinion drops it from the contest, because being a groundpounding melee unit it's bound to take some losses. I typically don't use them in the beginning for this reason, and buy them much later once they have accumulated somewhat, and I have other troops that'll keep the enemy busier. Decent stats, good special, good speed but the lack in growth really hurts.
Dragonflies are very good in their context and are definitely a key unit to Fortress. What they do lack is combat prowess but they make up for it in other areas. The speed is very important early game and the special abilities are nice although not that useful. Still, due to the rather low hit points and damage output per weekly growth, they can't really challenge the mighty griffins in combat. Overall very useful, and better than cerberi for this reason.
Grand Elves are much like Marksmen, except they're quite a bit better. The damage output is huge and they have okay speed. They are an absolute key unit to Rampart at early stages of the game and played well play an important role all the way. I find your earlier argument rather hilarious, sorry. Of course everything has to be evaluated in context, standalone means nothing. The elves are an excellent force and one of the best damage dealers in the game. They are not a long-lasting unit though, and careless playing gets them diminished to a level where they no longer pose a threat. Due to their absolute position in the build chain of Rampart and all these other factors, I'll vote for them.
Statwise the RG is awesome, mostly thanks to its nice +3 growth. They are however not as much in a key role as flies or elves but definitely a grand force when they're bought (I don't get them in the beginning because I delay the upgrade.) I usually bring them in once I need the mass that comes with them: 425 HP per week is hardly a laughing matter and the damage, while invidually weak, really piles up with that growth. The unlimited retaliation is a very nice bonus too for blocking. If I bring them out too early though, their numbers usually diminish somewhat, so I prefer waiting. A huge stack of griffons is definitely scary, especially if there's no shooters or no-retaliation-melees to take kill some off from top of the stack. They are still not as important to Castle as Grand Elves are to Rampart or Dragonflies to Fortress, so they're not winning this contest. This just goes to show that Castle is really powerful (and Rampart and Fortress rather weak).
The decision was really though, and the final outcome is highly dependent on the map, but generally I'd prefer the elves. So the elves it is then.
Well there are offensive races and there are defensive races, as well as races that are a mixture of both. For example, if you play Stronghold you are almost forced to play offensively (in spite of having the game's second strongest ranged creature, chances are you won't have many of them) and so you are almost forced to charge across the battlefield at whatever barricades your opponent may have put up around his ranged creatures. The same applies to Inferno and Fortress. At the other end of the spectrum is obviously Tower with three ranged creatures. In between there's Rampart (which, despite having only one ranged creature, has a powerful ranged creature as well as fast fliers that can threaten the enemy's ranged creatures easily) and Castle.It was amusing to read the whole "blocking" argument, but I think the Best Level X Creature is the creature of that level who is the most useful throughout a game. So despite many good points made against them, I still think Grand Elves are a legitimate contender. They have bad defense stats compared to the others, but they shoot i.e. they deal free damage. That really evens out a lot. Besides, every town has shooter units and blocking them is always obligatory, except maybe for Fortress.
So we can assume that shooters will get their free damage, they will perish quick if the fight lasts long enough but you'll have to grant them at least two rounds of free play. That would put them on par with the average level 3 unit at least, but now their special comes into play - and they just made it to the elite league of the level.
What it boiled down to with me, is that a final showdown on a big map means a battle of many turns, and only then does the total damage of Cerberi and Royal Griffins really exceed the Grand Elves' - while otherwise it will be about on par. Cerberi deal free damage due to their special, but the difference is that they will still be in the heat of battle (and a likely target for shooters due to their dangerous retaliation). Griffins don't deal free damage by default, but are designed to last in the heat of battle.
Another thing to note is that ranged creatures will get more shots, or less, depending on how deadly they are. To say they get two rounds of free shots is really oversimplifying things. For a creature like Grand Elves, which are the focal points of large battles, maybe they will get only two free rounds - but if you consider Master Gremlins, Master Gremlins are going to stay alive for quite a long time. But it's hardly because Master Gremlins are excellent survivalists; they're terrible, and will perish extremely quickly if they come under focused fire. They live for so long because they aren't targetted, and they aren't targetted because they're not dangerous.
So if you look at it from this perspective it just shows how powerful the Grand Elves are. They are so powerful that entire clashes between fully developed armies will revolve around them. It is because they are so powerful that the other side puts out all effort to neutralizing them, and it is because they are ranged against such tremendous firepower that they get so few actions. On the other hand, if you play a final battle against a full-formed Castle army you have a lot of things to target other than the Royal Griffins. The Archangel stack is an obvious priority, as are the Champions, the Marksmen, the Crusaders. For the Royal Griffins to become the biggest target, you must destroy a significant part of the Castle army first.
So while I agree with your conclusion that the total damage from Cerberi and Royal Griffins will exceed that of the Grand Elves in large battles, it does not prove that they are superior units. On the contrary, I think that you get a good measure of which creatures are the deadliest and most powerful by looking at how fast they die. Royal Griffins are excellent creatures, and so are Cerberi, but they just don't compare with Grand Elves.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.
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Yurian Stonebow
- Archmage
- Posts: 961
- Joined: 06 Jan 2006
- Location: Vantaa, Finland
In my opinion Royal Griffins are a must have in early to mid game when playing as Castle. I never leave these creatures back home but instead take them whereever I go and send them in the midst of the enemy armed with bless and shield. And to add insult to injury, why not boosting them further with stone skin and blood lust?
The Roayl Griffins' specialty, unlimited retaliations, becomes very handy in situations described above. Send them to harrass the enemy and have your Archangels ready with their powerful resurrection. Thanks to the effiency of this combo, using the Royal Griffins as major damage dealer has become one of my favourite tactics in Heroes III.
Yurian
The Roayl Griffins' specialty, unlimited retaliations, becomes very handy in situations described above. Send them to harrass the enemy and have your Archangels ready with their powerful resurrection. Thanks to the effiency of this combo, using the Royal Griffins as major damage dealer has become one of my favourite tactics in Heroes III.
Yurian
Don't worry if things are going badly today. They will be much worse tomorrow.
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BigThingWithHolesInIt
- Peasant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Banedon wrote:Well there are offensive races and there are defensive races, as well as races that are a mixture of both. For example, if you play Stronghold you are almost forced to play offensively (in spite of having the game's second strongest ranged creature, chances are you won't have many of them) and so you are almost forced to charge across the battlefield at whatever barricades your opponent may have put up around his ranged creatures. The same applies to Inferno and Fortress. At the other end of the spectrum is obviously Tower with three ranged creatures. In between there's Rampart (which, despite having only one ranged creature, has a powerful ranged creature as well as fast fliers that can threaten the enemy's ranged creatures easily) and Castle.
Another thing to note is that ranged creatures will get more shots, or less, depending on how deadly they are. To say they get two rounds of free shots is really oversimplifying things. For a creature like Grand Elves, which are the focal points of large battles, maybe they will get only two free rounds - but if you consider Master Gremlins, Master Gremlins are going to stay alive for quite a long time. But it's hardly because Master Gremlins are excellent survivalists; they're terrible, and will perish extremely quickly if they come under focused fire. They live for so long because they aren't targetted, and they aren't targetted because they're not dangerous.
So if you look at it from this perspective it just shows how powerful the Grand Elves are. They are so powerful that entire clashes between fully developed armies will revolve around them. It is because they are so powerful that the other side puts out all effort to neutralizing them, and it is because they are ranged against such tremendous firepower that they get so few actions. On the other hand, if you play a final battle against a full-formed Castle army you have a lot of things to target other than the Royal Griffins. The Archangel stack is an obvious priority, as are the Champions, the Marksmen, the Crusaders. For the Royal Griffins to become the biggest target, you must destroy a significant part of the Castle army first.
So while I agree with your conclusion that the total damage from Cerberi and Royal Griffins will exceed that of the Grand Elves in large battles, it does not prove that they are superior units. On the contrary, I think that you get a good measure of which creatures are the deadliest and most powerful by looking at how fast they die. Royal Griffins are excellent creatures, and so are Cerberi, but they just don't compare with Grand Elves.
I really think you are overestimating the power of ranged units a little.
First of all, a Rampart fight is far from over once the Grand Elves are down. The fact that they have only 15 HP, and Rampart recruits the most HPs of all towns per week should tell you something. If you are too enthusiastic in killing the Elves, you will get your best flyer engaged by the Dendroids, your other flyer killed or blinded by Unicorns, Dwarves and Centaurs, and your own shooters engaged by Pegasi and Dragons.
It's obviously vital to take the Grand Elves out soon - they are dangerous AND they drop like flies. Especially compared to the rest of the Rampart army. This makes them a double-edged sword. Losing a Grand Elf is like losing two Evil Eyes in terms of damage output, and they are lost easily. Even as much as a Lightning bolt can hurt the Elves' power considerably.
Even if you can't do anything about them just yet, the Elves are still just one unit. They do impressive damage (decent at far range) but they don't decimate entire armies or anything. That's just giving them too much credit. In a long-term plan the Royal Griffins, Cerberi and Dragon Flies will do much more for you, as they are much more versatile within the dynamics of a big battle.
Well I agree with everything you wrote except this paragraph:
Grand Elves aren't going to decimate entire armies alone - no single stack can. But I don't see how Royal Griffins, Cerberi and Dragon Flies do much more for you. Can you give an example?Even if you can't do anything about them just yet, the Elves are still just one unit. They do impressive damage (decent at far range) but they don't decimate entire armies or anything. That's just giving them too much credit. In a long-term plan the Royal Griffins, Cerberi and Dragon Flies will do much more for you, as they are much more versatile within the dynamics of a big battle.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.
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BigThingWithHolesInIt
- Peasant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 06 Feb 2008
That was referring to big battles that last 4+ rounds, when the opposition army is beefy and led by a good hero. It's clear your Elves are eventually going to be engaged here and there's not much you can (or want to) do about it. The only thing you can do is move them away from the unit that has struck them, and usually this just wastes a turn because they are not lightning fast.
Griffins and Dragon Flies on the other hand can still fly around, pick targets, use their specials. Cerberi can't fly but their special gets better when the battle gets more dense, and no enemy retaliation helps keep them alive until and beyond that point.
For the record, I mainly based my pick on experience with large maps, and custom maps like the Battleground series, because there the little details and the durability of your forces really matter. But if you prefer small maps with just a few decisive battles, Grand Elves are likely the best level 3 unit you can have.
Griffins and Dragon Flies on the other hand can still fly around, pick targets, use their specials. Cerberi can't fly but their special gets better when the battle gets more dense, and no enemy retaliation helps keep them alive until and beyond that point.
For the record, I mainly based my pick on experience with large maps, and custom maps like the Battleground series, because there the little details and the durability of your forces really matter. But if you prefer small maps with just a few decisive battles, Grand Elves are likely the best level 3 unit you can have.
That is true. Dragon's attack, or better said dragon's breathe, can eleminate elves from the battle with lightning speed.
The Griffins are invaluable in such situation. But I think here is no strife about.
(Every unit is having its strong point.)
The Griffins are invaluable in such situation. But I think here is no strife about.
(Every unit is having its strong point.)
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The same debate still? Elves vs. others.... Pol are you sure you want to get into this ? 
"Rage against the system, the system, what kills the human spirit."
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