H3: Are certain heroes too good?

[Nucleon]

You need to specify new to multiplayer.

Nucleon candidly admits having no wealth of experience at tournament games. He sometimes play multiplayer with a friend or another, usually as a single adversary on a medium map (like "All for One"), but what Nucleon likes are the more RPG elements of the game and taking His time, calculating things. He adapts easily, thought.

[csarmi]

Not newbie, noob.

Newbie is someone, who listens.
Noobs, on the other hand are stuck.

Which is perfectly fine by me and is probably fine for the person too; provided he doesn't come to share his "knowledge".

[Nucleon]

Not newbie, noob.

Newbie is someone, who listens.
Noobs, on the other hand are stuck.

Which is perfectly fine by me and is probably fine for the person too; provided he doesn't come to share his "knowledge".

Hey Slappy, if this noob trashes you, what would that make you?

An under-noob?

Nucleon suggests you take a pill and get a life.

[csarmi]

Who is this Nucleon btw?

[Pol]

Who is this Nucleon btw?

Yup, this also confusing me a little.

I tried to track the topic back and didn't find out that he somewhere suggested to not prefer Logistic, just to let you know....

Furhermore it's pointless because the whole discussion is not staying over one map, one battle and the SP/MP mode wasn't defined.

[Gaidal Cain]

Mod Note: If the namecalling doesn't end right now, this thread will be locked. Argue startegy and tactics if you wish, but stop arguing persons.

[Nucleon]

Mod Note: If the namecalling doesn't end right now, this thread will be locked. Argue startegy and tactics if you wish, but stop arguing persons.

Ah, at last. Nucleon agrees, and welcomes your intervention.

Thanks. This is a leisure board after all.

[Corribus]

I gotta know, because I'm simply curious - is there a reason you refer to yourself in the third person? It's very distracting - like that Seinfeld episode.

[Banedon]

This time, you assumed rightly. wink

I don't know if I should be serious or laugh. A castle defended by 7 Pikemen is not invulnerable - far from it - but it will be invulnerable to most courrier forces, including Pyre and her two Efreet Sultans.

Well, for once, you assume that Nucleon could not take anything with a Logistician and two Efreet Sultans while you assume that you will bend the map in two with six Efreet Sultans.

You noted you do not use Logistics specialists. You also noted you'd give two Efreet Sultans to Pyre. If Pyre is fighting neutral battles, she is not a courier; she is a secondary hero - which you did not mention.

You assume that your map has no chokepoints of any sort, and is literally lavished with goods.

I have conservatively assumed there to be 5000 free Gold - something that can be done by two treasure chests and one pile of Gold. Is this "lavished with goods"? And, so what if there is a chokepoint?

About the risks; if your (presumed) Logistician with his 6 ES goes too far, or runs in staunch defenses (such as an ambush "event" dot), your castle is defenseless, far-behind and under-developped.

Let's consider a few things.

1. The ambush "event" does not happen in serious games - it's only for single player, RPG maps.
2. If my main hero is defeated (should not be, since Efreet Sultans rule the early game) my castle is not defenseless. You will not be able to siege it; you will be too far away. In another week I will have 4 Efreet Sultans and I can go conquer the world again. My castle will not be under-developed either, since I have my level 6 dwelling and you don't.

Hellhounds are sufficiently fast and powerful to win all vital mines around your castle and are efficient enough in defense. Of course, that's a lvl 3 (and a half) unit, largely under-estimated, but it is efficient enough during the first two weeks of a typical map. You won't conquer the world with that, thought.

Hellhounds are relatively fast. But they are not powerful. I'd much rather have 30 Grand Elves than 30 Cerberi. Also, as not-so-sturdy walkers, you can win the mines but you will take damage in the meantime. Your army will gradually get weaker and you will have to return for reinforcements - something the Efreet Sultan army won't, since Efreet Sultans are sufficiently hardy not to die. You say Hellhounds are useful for the first two weeks? I tell you, Efreet Sultans can journey for three - or even more.

"Demon-raising" is a strategy well-suited to the start of the game, when you've got imps galore; that's why Nucleon aims for Pit Lords early, even only one; Later in the game, it works less efficiently as your imps (that Nucleon usually don't buy past the two first weeks) are surprisingly kick-ass by your hero's own defense ratings; You often end up killing the neutral opposition out of lassitude when only about half your stack of Soon-to-be-Demons Imps is killed (area spells and despicable Magogs can help you with that, althought).

Early on, if you have an extra 10 Demons, it won't matter at all if your opponent has an extra 2 Efreet Sultans (like our case will likely develop - you will get your Pit Lords, but I build my Fire Lake first and so have an extra 2 Efreet Sultans). Later in the game you want to get the Imps killed; not used. You can kill them easily. Aside from the two you mentioned, ANY neutral stack with no retaliation can kill any finite number of Imps.

Well, with such an efficient courrier, Nucleon surely can re-supply his main army with ease, thus negating the loss of a couple ES, isn't it? And if it's not enough and pushing comes to shoving, well, the courrier can take the whole army from the general at the front and quickly transport it to the defender on the home front, too. I don't see your advantage in the vague, antagonistic scenario you assume.

No. Nucleon cannot negate the loss of a couple of Efreet Sultans, because Nucleon has no more Efreet Sultans to recruit. To make this as clear as possible, I shall use a real example.

We both have a Fire Lake on week 1 (I know you don't build it, but it's just an example). I give my main army 2 Efreet Sultans. You give Pyre, your courier, 2 Efreet Sultans.

Next week I buy myself another 4 Efreet Sultans and go adventuring. You buy yourself 4 too and do the same. But because Pyre has 2 Efreet Sultans, your main army will only have 4 while I have 6. If we meet in battle in the second week, you will lose, despite your much-vaunted resupplying.

You still fail to understand that there are times when you have nothing to supply. Between day 2 (after you buy your week's population) and the new week, your more efficient courier force is nothing - you have nothing to courier! On the other hand, my more efficient main force is everything, and I will build my advantage.

If you attack my main castle(s), I will see you - and move my main army home. If my main army with a level 20 hero attacks your main army with a level 5 hero (as it will be, if you courier your main army back to defend the castle) I bet I will win - though you have castle defenses, my extra mass spells should win me the battle. I will certainly take serious casualties, but by destroying your main army and razing your capitol, I will have given myself a winning advantage.

Nucleon builds a strong general first, then a defender (who may be the courrier itself; great for the mill runs). And if the map permits it, moderatly strong linking heroes between them. It is not unusual that Nucleon's courriers get to lvl10 (not so hard a thing, considering He sometimes favour xp from chests), simply by "cleaning around" the Capital.

And Demoniacs are quite proficient in magic; Most of the time they get the skills you mentionned with ease.

What do you mean by treasure chests? You have none. Those that are near your castle your main hero will take; those further away your courier heroes will never get to (they have a courier duty, after all). And, just how many treasure chests will you take to reach level 10? 15? 20? I see what you mean by a map "literally lavish with resources".

"Cleaning" around the capitol only happens after every new month. If the game lasts for two months you only get to do it twice; I do not think your hero will reach level 10.

You also miss my main point. The point isn't that Pyre cannot cast Advanced Resurrection; she can if she is high enough level. Problem is, she is not going to reach it! See?

Why don't you check for yourself? It seems that our private, irrelevant pissing contest interest no one but us, and sometimes csarmi. You just have to right-click on the arrow towers in combat. smile

You don't right-click the arrow towers in combat, you place Efreet Sultans against them and check the arrow tower's damage. I will check it myself after I make this post.

EDIT: Experiments indicate that yes, you are right, and the arrow towers cannot kill any Efreet Sultans in a shot. Changes nothing though, since I'd simply buy more Pikemen (which I let stockpile).

Nucleon sure do, for many reasons. To defend the Capital, to make the main army faster, to leave at least one un-occupied slot in the main army (for diplomacy and alien dwellings) and to leave the Defender some decent forces to clean around.

In the Inferno's case, Nucleon usualy leaves Cerberi, Imps, often the Gogs (or what's left of them) and maybe even the Pit Lords, if He suspects an incoming invasion, so the defender could raise a few more Demons.

You do exactly what I do, except my "defender", as you put it, does not gain so much experience. There is insufficient experience around to raise him to level 10. I challenge you to show me a map where it can be done.

One man's meat is another one's poison.

Alright, I challenge you to not only show me a map where you get level 10 couriers, but also show me a save game.

Is it necessary? I know Crimson and Clover, for one, is the kind of symetric, four-players-each-in-their-respective-corner kind of map He refered to... Nucleon thinks he made his point clear enough.

Now you suppose Crimson and Clover isn't a typical map? Crimson and Clover is as typical as it can be. Anyway I challenge you to also show me a typical map.

Get someone to help you read what Nucleon posted since the start of this thread. You will (maybe) realize that Nucleon favors single-stack tactics, yes, but as a mean to defeat Solmyr at the start of a game, a valid strategy.

Will you agree to a battle where you have 100 Master Gremlins in a single stack, as does Solmyr? I can even give you 150 Master Gremlins if you want - I will win the fight (but you will have to give me mana to cast Chain Lightning thrice).

As for Capitals and treasure chests; It is certain that you will take the money if you've got no Capital, but Nucleon, if He can, prefers having 2k more each day and give experience to his starting heroes, so they can developp useful skills, like "Logistics", to make them good at what they are assigned to.

I will tell you again: I will have no Capitol while you do for only a few turns. I will accept this disadvantage because I get a wealth of advantages in return. In return for your extra gold, I take over more towns (negating your gold advantage), seize more mines than you (negating it even more), build a hero higher level than yours (giving me a late-game advantage) as well as stockpile creatures for later recruiting (giving me a superior army later). If you prefer 10k gold to these advantages, something is seriously wrong with your gameplay.

Hey Slappy, if this noob trashes you, what would that make you?

If Nucleon defeats csarmi in a battle, I will shut up and acknowledge all he says.

I gotta know, because I'm simply curious - is there a reason you refer to yourself in the third person? It's very distracting - like that Seinfeld episode.

Actually I refer to myself in the third person ocassionally - it's a fun thing to do.

[JurK]

beztezt chars: Solmyr -> tower chain lightning (really sick with some nice boosts)

prayerguy from castle -> high lvl on archangels = n/c

[Nucleon]

I gotta know, because I'm simply curious - is there a reason you refer to yourself in the third person? It's very distracting - like that Seinfeld episode.

Because, verily, it pleases Him.

[Nucleon]

You know, Banedon, Pol "said" an interesting thing, un-deniable and obvious by now; we thread on very vague terrain indeed. So we suppose as we see fit, clashing on topics that end up all mixed up, and where our respective view to a single, particular situation is taken by the other as a regular modus operandi.

In thruth, there are many types of HOMM3 games and campaigns. In this very thread, Nucleon realize that, consciensiously or not, He prefer to play rather long maps that are more akin to RPG.

So He was rather shocked at how short some games are. Sure, Nucleon played short games before (He made "The Dead and The Buried" in 3 weeks), but He did not find them satisfying enough. He seems to find these "balanced" maps a little bit previsible, as well as too easy. However, He imagine that these type of game are standard tournament stuff.

He will send you such a map, "Arrogance", which even thought it is the opening menu map, He never played before (for the aformentionned reasons). He also tried to rush it. "Tried", because once his first ennemy fell (in the tird week), He took the luxury to tour it a bit -because that's what he likes, even thought He imagine that it would be nefarious in a tournament.

He finished the last ennemy on the smallish map at Month 3, Week 1, Day 5.

All was random; the starting town, hero and bonus, and the difficulty was expert. I got Castle and Adelaide. Loynis was my "defender", hired on the first day. At the end of the game (that gave Nucleon no troubles at all), Adelaide, general, achieved lvl 15, while Loynis got lvl 11 by defending the home front. Mullich, hired on the late, was at lvl two.

Now did He enjoyed it? Not that much, actually.

Nucleon like maps akin to "All for One", because it is rich in quests, visiting locations and types of terrain and towns. This map is the first one He ever played, and the His base of comparison. But what He is really at ease with are campaigns and epic games like "The Mandate of Heaven".

The key here is adaptability. If there is one HOMM3 quality that Nucleon aims to achieve, it is adaptability. Sometimes He gets it wrong, but most of the times He tries to get the "beat" of the game and reacts accordingly.

It wouldn't surprise Nucleon at all if we acted in the same manner when faced with similar situations.



EDIT: Nucleon tried to send you the saved game, but He couldn't find your e-mail adress in your profile.

[LordScimitar]

I read everything until page 7. After that, I couldn't.

Few things I'd like to note:

1. Nucleon-do you notice how almost no one is arguing against you?
2. Single stacks are good for suicide attacks only. Resources CAN be a problem. But, generally, you'll have enough money to buy, I'd say, easily one third of your troop production. EASILY. Now, if you're buying one stack, you might get all of them. For a Necromancer town (who has IMHO the best 6th level unit) an army of say, 12 Dread Knights, is pretty powerful. If that's the only thing you're buying, by week 3 or 4, they'll be pretty strong. BUT, you'd have extra gold that isn't being spent!

Meanwhile, your opponent has spent all his gold. He only has 8 dread knights, but stacks of everything else that more than make up for a few less dread knights. Unless resources are extremely limited to the point that you can barely afford just one stack of something...then, 1 stacking is bad. What's stronger: One army of archangels, or an army with an equal amount of archangels, champions, zealots, etc etc.

Single stacking should only be used if you're armageddoning/other spell and retreating. PERIOD.

Next, logistics. You keep talking about creeping out of the shroud. Tell me...how? Why isn't he sneaking into yours before you've got extra troops for the end of the week?

Logistics as a disadvantage is NUTS. If anything, you'll be creeping into his territory unknowingly. He'll have 30% more of the map uncovered. You'll creep out into areas he's long explored. Boom, he sees you. As you're finally expanding more than a day or two's travel from your territory, he's rushing back to his highly developed base. You get further and further out of your area. A week's time away. He's resupplied and is on your tail. You try to run back to base but he destroys you. Or, perhaps, he doesn't attack you. Rather, he runs past you, though he has a stronger army. You can't attack him, because you'll lose. Shockingly, he surpasses you, and takes over your main castle. He'll lose about 20-40 of his mid level archers. Pity. But, now he has YOUR castle. And, those 20-40 mid level archers (exageration losing this much) is much less of a benefit than bonus morale of a tavern and castle turrets.

And, mines being guarded? I love these. More experience. Closer mines can easily be destroyed with week 1 troops. Week 2 and 3 troops mean creatures guarding mines barely matter. And, with the expanded resources, you're getting better troops. Upgraded buildings. More troops even as you're getting level 6 and 7 unit troops. On medium, or large and extra large maps, you're getting extra castles. I'm sorry. I don't care WHAT you're doing. If I'm a decent player, and have 3 towns compared to your 2, I'm gonna win. And, with the expanded resources, my all 3 towns can be as expanded as both of yours.

I will give you one thing. On small maps, Logistics heroes don't rule as much. And can be dangerously misused. On a smaller map where confrontations might take place within a week or two, then, I'd rather have a Crag Hack, or a Solymyr, or what not. In this case, your more conservative strategy might work better. I'd wonder into your territory and would have exhausted my spell points/loss a few troops against neutral stacks/encountered you without having reinforced my creature stacks from the current week. In which case, you'd attack, destroy my main army, and have done very well and could use that as an advantage to come into my territory and wipe me out.

But, basically, its a player mistake. All the problems with logistics heroes would come from a PLAYER MISTAKE. Not to say they don't happen-they do. But, the OPPOSING player is just as likely to make a mistake. I say with my expanded movement, I invade what should be your area, and begin to feel nervous, and back away. I have that area scouted. I'm backing away, going back for reinforcements, and you just THEN reach that area. BAM, I know your location. I take my nearest hero to town, hire all the creatures he can, and go to meet my main logistics hero. I get my new creatures, and I saw the direction you came from. With my extended resources, I have the more powerful army. I know where you are. I can either:

a). Invade your territory and flag some of your mines/whatnot without getting too close to your main castle. Retreat. I expand my view so I know 1-2 days ahead of time where you are. Repeatedly go in and take his mines are retreat. Use your main hero and keep him supplied so the enemies too afraid to attack him directly. Meanwhile, you're denying him of resources, and getting yourself more. He won't be able to afford all his troops, you will. Your "scout" heroes will gradually get a bit stronger too until they can start beating neutral stacks, grabbing artifacts, and mines, etc. The longer this lasts, the better off you are.

b). Fight it out! You're resupplied. He's resupplied since he retreated. Strongest wins. Since you've had more resources, you're likely to have a stronger army. You may not be able to take his castle. That's fine. Take everything else and let him challenge you out in the open. You should win. If he doesn't take you on, refer to a).

Oh, and other things to note:

Kyre: Pathfinding is easy to get. Also earth magic. Earth magic is great in and out of battle. View earth is powerful. Slow works great with Pegasi (I love waiting a in half/damage range of archery units, then attack an archery unit and retreat), grand elves (slow is low mana cost, and with mines or other neutral stacks, grand elves + slow means victory with no loss), and is also likely to get archery. Notice I'm saying possibly. Even if she doesn't get slow or view earth, mass stone skid/shield is still pretty nice. And the chances of getting none of these with a level 1 mage guild is pretty low. Especially 2-3 level 1 mage guilds. And if by an amazing stroke of luck you get TP, its over, as she can reinforce herself, and strike hard. Any hero can do this, but only logistics heroes can usually start at their own castle and reach yours in 2 days travel. Also gains offense and armorer easily.

Gunnar: Tactics isn't that useful late game. I'll give you that. Early game though its quite nice. Tactics means placing your Evil Eyes in the corner and protecting them with dual stacks of Minotaur Kings. Or Infernal Troglodytes (though the Trogs dispel some of the movement bonus). Early game positioning of harpies, evil eyes, and medusa queens can mean you are gaining mines and artifacts easily with minimal to no losses. Also gains earth magic easily (see Kyrre) and air magic decently enough. As well as ballistics to destroy castle walls, and offense. Basically, GREAT skill layout.

Dessa: I can't remember her initial skills. She gets offense easily. She isn't quite as awesome as Gunnar and Kyrre because of her troops. Stronghold troops take more losses than any others it seems to me. They are all strong attackers but incredibly fragile for their levels.

To sum it all up:

Logistics heroes, in the actual battle, don't really have an advantage, if spells/creatures are equal. Thing is, those WON'T be equal. That's the point of a logistics heroes.

Logistics heroes, with their extra and/or upgraded troops, can easily match the offense skills of Crag Hack. Or armor skill of Tzar. Or anything else. And, they recover quickly. In an attack of two players main heroes, neither comes out unscathed. Let's face it, the chain that prevents escape is VERY hard to come by. And a smart player will run/surrender before only one stack is present to avoid the "blind" strategy. You may win that initial battle. But, after such a "costly" victory, you won't be able to take me over. My scouts will retreat behind safe walls. Any attack on a castle is gonna cost you dearly. My hero is rehired, and within a week, resupplied, and can possibly travel to 2 or 3 towns in a week, or meet with heroes carrying creatures from those towns, and be back in the game.

You can beat logistics heroes.

But, OVERALL, unless on a map in which the action happens and is over soon, Logistics heroes dominate.

With equal resources and equal player skill logistics heroes will win. Some special maps this won't be the case. This is the case for any situation.

I encourage anyone who has doubts about logistics heroes do a simple test.

Play a map with a town other than a logistics hero. Get to know the map.

Play the map again with a town with a logistics hero, but don't use the logistics hero. Use savestates differing at the end of each week or beginning of a new week.

Now, play that same map with a logistics hero. You originally played it once to get to know the map so you couldn't say that you did better this second time with your town type only because you knew the map better. This is elimiated. Do your savestates. Compare your power at these savestates against the game without the logistics hero.

If you're more powerful without the logistics hero, I'm wrong. Plain and simple. I can't see it though.

Final word:
Player's making a mistake using logistics is just as likely as a player without logistics making a mistake.

[Banedon]

He will send you such a map, "Arrogance", which even thought it is the opening menu map, He never played before (for the aformentionned reasons). He also tried to rush it. "Tried", because once his first ennemy fell (in the tird week), He took the luxury to tour it a bit -because that's what he likes, even thought He imagine that it would be nefarious in a tournament.

I know Arrogance well; I have played it often. In this map you cannot rush - there is a sea in between both sides. It is not a good map to quote as "typical" though, since most maps do not require sailing (or, if they do, sailing can be avoided).

Nucleon like maps akin to "All for One", because it is rich in quests, visiting locations and types of terrain and towns. This map is the first one He ever played, and the His base of comparison. But what He is really at ease with are campaigns and epic games like "The Mandate of Heaven".

I also know the Mandate of Heaven. It is, however, much more "untypical" than Arrogance. The Mandate of Heaven is a single player RPG style map. It cannot even be played by two players. Therefore, it is a game that you can only play against the computer, and I agree that against the AI practically anything works.

The key here is adaptability. If there is one HOMM3 quality that Nucleon aims to achieve, it is adaptability. Sometimes He gets it wrong, but most of the times He tries to get the "beat" of the game and reacts accordingly.

Yet Nucleon failed to adapt to so many cases I have put before him / her. I bring Solmyr - Nucleon adapts by bringing one stack of Naga Queens. I destroy that army so devastatingly that Nucleon fails to do me even one point of damage, yet Nucleon refuses to adapt again (this time by bringing the rest of the army)! I give myself an awesome movement advantage with my Logistics specialist, yet Nucleon "adapts" by compounding the problem (adding slow units like Dwarves). If you want very much to achieve adaptability (which, I agree, is one of the key qualities of HoMM 3), you should first listen to other players.

EDIT: Nucleon tried to send you the saved game, but He couldn't find your e-mail adress in your profile.

I suggest you post a link here instead. I should, however, ask a few things of you. One, do not post a save game of RPG maps like The Mandate of Heaven; and two, post a game where you are up against at least one other human player.

There is one more thing I have to tell you. It will seem harsh, and that is: yes, csarmi was right, you are a noob. Not necessarily noob with respect to Heroes of Might and Magic 3, but you are one when it comes to multiplayer (I can tell from the maps you play). Instead of arguing so much against Logistics specialists, why not actually try a few - serious - games against someone else? It can even play against yourself, though you should certainly try to exploit both side's prowess. Several games later, you will probably start to see the cracks that abound in your previous arguments.

Single stacking should only be used if you're armageddoning/other spell and retreating. PERIOD.

Actually I find that risky, unless that single stack is one of Archangels. Because if you show up with a slow stack, your opponent will simply cast a spell to defeat you. Probably the better way is to buy 7 of the cheapest stack available and split them up - this gives you a good (but not absolute) chance of surviving.

Yours was a very long post, but since you read 7 pages of our banter, I felt obliged to read yours in its entirety too.

[SmokingBarrel]

No need to get worked up, you can stop yelling the word noob.

Plasemake the post shorter, k? It'll take me forever to read everything...

Nucleon, I don't think you can win with everybody going against you.Too many ppl to argue against with, and, sad to say, I side with my bro. Logistics is very useful, I don't see any disadvantages. My bro said that you said logistics will get you ambushed more.Not surely. What is the danger of moving too far?

Logistics is useful with transporters.

You suprised me about the fact that 2 efreet sultans can takeover a castle guarded by 7 pikeman. Cool.

I might have made a, um, somekind of relapse,since I didn't read much of this, the posts are just too long, sorry.

[Pol]

Plasemake the post shorter, k? It'll take me forever to read everything...

This will be very pleasant idea for all here.

What is the danger of moving too far?

To die quiet fast. Here is no cover.

Logistics is useful with transporters.

Logistic is always useful, except for "barricaded" defenders. In MP you may try to pretend a lower speed of your hero and then boom! (It's good surprise, but difference should be relatively big, 15% could be enough but 50% is much better )

You suprised me about the fact that 2 efreet sultans can takeover a castle guarded by 7 pikeman. Cool.

Don not rely on that too much. First that's fully apply only against AI. Against any normal player you will need also ballista, FAT and good spells (Death Ripple may come extremly handy) or with Armageddon (In WoG the best support is "Gold Key")

[csarmi]

Mod Note: If the namecalling doesn't end right now, this thread will be locked. Argue startegy and tactics if you wish, but stop arguing persons.

I was only asking who was that guy he keeps talking about.
Of course that's a bit provocative question, intending to find out why this third -person talking. I see nothing wrong with that.

I also called him a noob, which was a mere stating of facts, rather than an insult. As I stated, there is nothing wrong with that. I will apologize for it if that guy comes around and seems to want me to.

As for arguing strategy and tactics, well, that doesn't really happen here as you can see. The talking has gone too far into one direction: Nucleon stating the impossible (provocatively?) and others telling him it's not so.

Maybe there isn't much to argue about in h3? I dunno...

I've got an idea, however.
Nucleon, instead of all these talking, what about you come here with some maps you like (I guess mostly rpg maps) and we discuss strategies, playstyles for those maps? You should come up with 4-5 maps so that the readers have a higher chance to find one which he already played.
Heck, I might even try one of the maps and tell how I would play it. Or we can play it all and share saves with the others.

Just try to make that post short, because I simply can't get myself to read your posts for more than a few lines; these "he"'s are so irritating (maybe it's only me, but íi feel that way).

[Gaidal Cain]

The note was directed to both of you. I'm sure you can agree that calling someone a "noob" isn't the nicest thing to do, however true it might be. Replying in the same style isn't any better. My intervention was intended to stop the discussion from degenerating any further, and as long as it doesn't, I see no further need to discuss it.

[Nucleon]

Verily, Nucleon is quite pissed.

I know Arrogance well; I have played it often. In this map you cannot rush - there is a sea in between both sides. It is not a good map to quote as "typical" though, since most maps do not require sailing (or, if they do, sailing can be avoided).

Well, if that's the case, your definition of a "typical map" is quite narrow, almost following rules that severly restrain mapmaking creativity. Why would Nucleon play such maps if they give Him no pleasure?

If you want very much to achieve adaptability (which, I agree, is one of the key qualities of HoMM 3), you should first listen to other players.

Why should Nucleon listen to people bound to a single kind of map and use a single strategy all the time? Why should He listen to people who do not read correctly what He said? Case in point:

Instead of arguing so much against Logistics specialists,

You are arguing against Logistic specialists, not Nucleon. Nucleon appreciate Logistic specialists and wouldn't ban them. He wouldn't mind neither having one or playing against one; He just happen to favor other specialists at the start of of a game, like He said many times all over this thread.

Gee, guys, this is frustrating. You are building strawmen with Nucleon's name on them to show your prowess by beating then afterwards. These strawmen have nothing to do with Nucleon.

That's both condescending and cowardly. Nucleon is ready to show you how he plays much more directly than that, if you dare. He don't mind being the underdog here, but if you take him lightly, you are going to fall from high.

'Nuff said.

[Banedon]

Verily, Nucleon is quite pissed.

Verily, Nucleon has no reason to be angry.

Well, if that's the case, your definition of a "typical map" is quite narrow, almost following rules that severly restrain mapmaking creativity. Why would Nucleon play such maps if they give Him no pleasure?

I suppose you'll tell me next that rushing on this map is impossible? Well, maybe in the case where all four players are humans it is impossible. Otherwise it is entirely plausible. I play Blue. I take both my castles. I take the subtarranean gate and demolish Teal. I take a boat from there to take over Purple (who, controlled by the AI, should not offer much resistance). With 6 castles to your 2, you will lose. Even if I do not manage to take over both Purple castles, I can take maybe one, and that will still give me 5 castles to your 3.

Why should Nucleon listen to people bound to a single kind of map and use a single strategy all the time? Why should He listen to people who do not read correctly what He said?

You call to mind the exact same questions I ask myself. Why should I agrue against someone who has almost no idea what he is talking about? Why should I even care? But I have an obligation here - if I ignore you, you will happily go on with your tactics, lose horribly against a good player and then (probably) curse the game, curse your opponent, curse everyone for cheating.

You are arguing against Logistic specialists, not Nucleon. Nucleon appreciate Logistic specialists and wouldn't ban them. He wouldn't mind neither having one or playing against one; He just happen to favor other specialists at the start of of a game, like He said many times all over this thread.

You are arguing against Logistics specialists. It's precisely because I appreciate them so much that I ban them. On the other hand, you appreciate them sufficiently little that you do not.

I do not object to you favouring other specialists at the start of the game. You are free to do whatever you want, but you are not free to say that Logistics specialists are not overpowered.

That's both condescending and cowardly. Nucleon is ready to show you how he plays much more directly than that, if you dare. He don't mind being the underdog here, but if you take him lightly, you are going to fall from high.

By all means! I challenge you to play a serious game against csarmi. Like I said, if you win, I'll shut up and accept all you say as gospel. One condition: you must allow csarmi to use a Logistics specialist.