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Caradoc
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Unread postby Caradoc » 16 Oct 2007, 20:53

theLuckyDragon wrote:Hey, Caradoc! I see you're becoming quite good at Fall from Heaven :)
Me, I won't be able to play on this computer until I get a DVD-ROM... But even so, I'm not sure whether this PC meets the minimum requirements. And 0.25 is coming out soon with all those changes :cry:
Just as well. 0.25 is on patch k and is only now bug free enough for a good game. There are some spectacular additions and the BTS AI has helped quite a lot. I do miss the 0.23 modmods, though, especially Options.

I'm finally to the point where I am only occasionally baffled or astonished by the game and know enough to make some minor edit/mods. I am working on a modmod involving animals and trainers. Frankly, after a couple of months of being immersed in FFH, I'm having a hard time coming back to Heroes.
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Unread postby theLuckyDragon » 17 Oct 2007, 03:40

It happened to me too during the early stages of FfH2, but sometimes I like a nice Heroes game to break the routine of fantasy civ-building :)
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Caradoc
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Unread postby Caradoc » 17 Oct 2007, 20:05

While I'm waiting for TOE to download (only six more hours, they say), I thought I might write a brief comparison of HOMM and FFH for those who might be curious.

Both are strategic, empire building, turn-based, fantasy games.

FACTIONS: Heroes has 8. FFH has 19. In both cases, each faction has a special 'flavor' and set of traits that make playing it a unique experience. In the case of FFH, most of these traits are invested in a leader, and some civilizations have several different leaders to choose from. Where HOMM has neutral monsters, FFH has barbarians and wild animals to deal with.

CITIES: As you would expect from a Civ mod, FFH has far more elaborate city building with a huge assortment of things to build. These are tied to your progress on an equally robust technology tree, making this part of the game much more enjoyable than HOMM.

UNITS: Where each unit in HOMM has something special about it, most FFH units are common across most civs. However, each civ gets several unique units and many of the common units have skins appropriate to the civ. Instead of the HOMM upgrades, the FFH units gain experience points that you can use to get promotions. There are many, many promotions available but each unit type can only get some of these.

HEROES: The FFH heroes are fighting units, like in HOMM4. They are specific to a civ or to a religion and have to be built like other units. They don't hang out in Taverns. They advance in levels over time and through combat.

MAGIC: The spells in FFH are tied into a 'mana' system, similar to the schools in HOMM, so that each kind of mana provides access to different spells. They are further divided into sorcery, summoning, and divine tracts according to the type of spell caster and they are arranged in three levels. Still they are less numerous and varied than the spells in HOMM, but powerful spellcasters are still a force to be rekkoned with. You have to capture mana nodes in order to get the spells.

MAPS: The civ map programs work with FFH so there are a wide range of map types to choose from. You control the size, continents, terrain features, etc. Because the generated maps are so good, there are much fewer user-made maps (scenarios) but there are some good ones.

ADVENTURE OBJECTS: Like HOMM, FFH has resources scattered all over the map. However, once you discover a resource, you have to build a city nearby and dispatch a worker unit to build a farm, mine, plantation, etc. Other than some lairs, there are no creature generators on the map, so you build them in your cities. HOMM has a lot more kinds of adventure objects like shrines and vaults, but there are a few in FFH, including the Tribal Villages that offer an assortment of bonuses to those who discover them.

COMBAT: FFH combat is very simplistic, using attack and defense numbers for the units involved, adjusted for whatever promotions the units have received. There is no tactical battlefield and unit on unit battles are resolved individually and in a single turn.

I think I've hit the main points here, but if anyone wants more details, let me know.
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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 17 Oct 2007, 20:46

I just received BtS in the mail from slow-a$$ Dell. But I'm looking forward to trying FFH as soon as I tire of the BtS expansion.
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Unread postby theLuckyDragon » 18 Oct 2007, 11:18

That looks like an accurate description of the main points.

I would only add the fact that the latest version of FfH (0.25 if I'm not mistaken) added a bit of variety in what concerns Adventure Objects. Several wonders that were previously buildable in towns have now been turned into terrain features (e.g. a follower of the elven-inspired religion no longer builds the Yggdrasil, but can instead find it on the map and, if lucky, expand their territory to occupy that tile).

And another thing: future versions of the Shadow phase will include artifacts and other items that can be "picked up" from the map and assigned to a certain unit.

(@Caradoc: you most probably knew all this, I'm just saying it to those who haven't yet played FfH ;))
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Unread postby Kalah » 18 Oct 2007, 13:24

Corribus wrote:I just received BtS in the mail from slow-a$$ Dell. But I'm looking forward to trying FFH as soon as I tire of the BtS expansion.
You ordered BtS from dell? :? What's wrong with amazon.com or a local store? Oh, and by the way... you will never tire from BtS...
In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity, In Peace: Goodwill.

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Unread postby Corribus » 18 Oct 2007, 14:18

I had a 50 dollar coupon from Dell as an apology for royally screwing up my laptop order. Unfortunately, they royally screwed up my free 50 dollar coupon order also. :disagree: Took over a month to ship my free game and free HD VGA cable. I was going to use it to buy Oblivion but after the GotY edition came out, Oblivion disappeared from their website. :?
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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 30 Oct 2007, 15:14

I really love the BtS expansion. I can't believe how much new stuff there is. Although, I'm not really enamored with the vassalage system. I find it very annoying when I'm in the middle of a war with someone and my ally turns the losing party into a vassal, and I immediately have to make peace with them.

Also - just out of curiosity, when you take over an enemy city, what is the value of destroying the city? I always incorporate the city into my empire and fail to see what you gain by destroying it. Someone else is just going to come along and build something there if I do. Am I missing something?
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?" - Richard P. Feynman

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Kalah
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Unread postby Kalah » 30 Oct 2007, 17:35

I love BtS too.

About the razing thing; if you raze an enemy city, you will suffer a relationship penalty. The more cities you raze, the more this penalty grows. If you raze a Holy City, you're up $hit creek; when I did that, not only did I get a -5 relationship (in addition to the other razing penalty) with my enemy, but with the others who had the same sate religion.
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Unread postby Ethric » 30 Oct 2007, 18:38

About vassalage, newest patches, official and unoficial, makes it so that a civ taking a beating is not likely to surrender to someone else (than the one doing the beating).

As for razing, there are many good reasons to. One is that the AI's city-planning is dreadful. Once when chasing the germans of my continent, I razed and rebuilt as I went along to get it the way I liked it. Another reason, closely related, is that the AI usually place down more cities than I would on the same area. And cities cost, so I usually prefer a smaller number of cities that take full advantage of their surroundings, as opposed to cramming in as many halfassed cities as possible. A third reason is if there is a big mean civ going to war with you, that you can't/don't want to conquer properly, you can raze a few of his biggest cities to show who's boss, and get peace with a bit of ransom on top. Without conquering any cities, it's hard to get peace without paying through the nose. Typically if this AI is on another, far-off continent.
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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 30 Oct 2007, 20:06

Unofficial patches??

So, you just take a bunch of settlers along with you when you invade?
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Unread postby Heretic_Cata » 30 Oct 2007, 20:30

Yea - BTS actually made Civ4 playable and somewhat intresting.
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Unread postby Ethric » 31 Oct 2007, 07:45

Corribus wrote:Unofficial patches??
If you go to the civfanatics forums you will find an unofficial patch to the 3.13 BtS-patch, which fixes several bugs and oversights. Firaxis spent a looong time getting that patch out, it was chockfull of bugs, some of them readily apperant after 30s of play, some so bad that if they occur your current game is fubar. Then an industrious fan comes along and fixes many after a few hours, and many more as they are reported...
Corribus wrote:So, you just take a bunch of settlers along with you when you invade?
Well sometimes, if I think their cities are crummy. In the particular example it was a case of me first razing and rebuilding cities I took on our border, then realized that this shifted the balance upwards in regards to where cities ought to be. So had to keep doing it to get a "perfect" setup. When the land is already developed, it doesn't take long for new cities to grow, as opposed to having them sit around in anarchy for several rounds anyway. Loose a few buildings, but no big deal in the overall scheme of things.

Of course, this was relatively early on. With conquest in later ages it probably better to keep cities where they are. More buildings are likely to be saved then. And if you can't afford the settlers to rebuild, just scraping by to finish your goal and end the war.
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Kalah
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Unread postby Kalah » 31 Oct 2007, 13:19

A problem with this raze-and-rebuild strategy is when there's huge competition for building sites. I don't know how many times I've experienced having razed a city, and as soon as the settler was on his way, a third civ had swooped in and built a city there. So yes, you should have your settler with you, basically, when razing a city in an area it's possible for other civs to get to.
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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 31 Oct 2007, 14:23

I will look into the fan patches, thanks.

I just finished my first game with an Augustus Caesar rating, domination victory. Woot! Is there a limit to the maximum level a unit can achieve? In my last game I had a level 15 Mechanized Infantry that was just unstoppable. I also like in BtS how there are a lot more naval units, and the corporation idea is an interesting one, though I haven't really figured out the nuances of it yet. And... how do you achieve a conquest victory? It seems that in order to defeat every opponent, you'd have to achieve the conditions for domination victory first, unless you just raze everything to the ground as you go along.

Anyway, BtS seems to be one of the biggest, best expansions for any game, ever.
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Kalah
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Unread postby Kalah » 31 Oct 2007, 14:31

The Domination win option is there to enable you to win the game early; so that you'll win if you're so far ahead that in reality you have already won. It's there so the Russians don't have to go all the way into Berlin and root out the militia. But you can uncheck that option if you prefer to defeat every civ, every city.
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Corribus
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Unread postby Corribus » 31 Oct 2007, 14:34

Yes, I need more war and bloodshed please. :)
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Unread postby Chai26 » 20 Nov 2007, 14:02

LOVED THIS EXPANSION, its almost like civilization 5! so much content and stuff i lost some sleep playing it :P
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Caradoc
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Unread postby Caradoc » 21 Nov 2007, 14:26

Quick note: The much awaited "Shadow" phase of Fall from Heaven is due to come out in mid-December. All kinds of new stuff in the greatest mod ever.
Before you criticize someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have their shoes.

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theLuckyDragon
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Unread postby theLuckyDragon » 21 Nov 2007, 19:17

Perfect present for Christmas :oex:
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