So what's the final verdict on Heroes V?

[Humakt]

Major problem with H3 AI was on the battlefield, which has been much more complex and tactical since H2 (define advantage for HoMM games over Simpciples aka Disciples). At least H4 and H5 AI play much better on combat generally.

I think they've made changes to H5 AI in ToE, it doesn't seem to cheat as much and plays more balanced. Can anyone verify?

[tb5841]

I think the AI may have improved in TotE. It still offers no real challenge if you can survive the first month or so, but the game can be challenging early on, and I haven't noticed any 'cheating' so far.

[Jolly Joker]

But it was never this obvious... even H4's craptastic AI wasn't this obvious.

Sure, pretending to be a clever and honest guy, but being the dumbest cheater of all times is of course a lot better than confessing that things are not like everyone would like them to be, but at least with a halfway decent result. A principle politics seem to be based upon. On second thought: pathetic, don't you think?

[ThunderTitan]

welcome to life...

[Jolly Joker]

Yes, a brillant illusion is considered better than a soso looking real thing... but that's not life-inherent. It's a personal choice.

[Muszka]

Of course, illusions do make life easier. Just to name one: Cigarettes!

[ThunderTitan]

Yes, a brilliant illusion is considered better than a soso looking real thing... but that's not life-inherent. It's a personal choice.

You really want to get into another long debate about Ubival... maybe tomorrow.

But as i recall we first caught it and then they admitted it... so you're the one applying the principles of politics here mate.

Of course, illusions do make life easier. Just to name one: Cigarettes!

IMO they make it harder as you can't be in a normal mood without them...

[Jolly Joker]

Well, that's not the point. The point is, that the H5 AI COULD have been better - and easily -, but isn't worse than the rest that wasn't brillant either.
I rate it quite clearly better than H3 and H4 but inferior to H 2 and H 1.
You could say that the others come with a better illusion of playing "humanlike", but are hopelessly unable to translate that into challenging play while the H 5 AI offers a lot more challenge - but the problem is that it offers not enough "opponent feeling".

[Muszka]

Of course, illusions do make life easier. Just to name one: Cigarettes!

IMO they make it harder as you can't be in a normal mood without them...

As long as a cigarette can calm down an angry man, thus preventing him in doing some stupid thing, what he wouldn't had thought about, it can be a "good thing", even if it's only a placebo.

[MistWeaver]

Let's not start about the AI again. It has always cheated. In H2 at least it does get more troops out of its town and cheats like hell.

I wish I could, but since you are, again, ignoring all Ive said before about AI, I need to repeat myself.

So, first lets skip battle part, in all Heroes(except H3) its more or less good.

Strategic AI - yes, almost all of them have cheated more or less (maybe H4 didnt), but in Heroes1-3 AI did not need that much cheating as H5 needs, to give player entertaining game.

You are saing H2 is cheating. Yes, starting from "Hard" it receives very *small* % boost to money income and creature growth. You, as player, would *never* notice it, if you weren't told.

H5 on other hand, gets a lot of boosts. On "Hard" it has 50% drop in prices (not only gold - everything) and dont need to honestly fight neutrals and other AI. And thats pretty noticeable to player.

So, you once said who gives a damn, if both AIs entertain us on same level even if H5 one needs more cheating. I dont agree, because AI that needs less cheats means that it can use its resources more wisely, which means two things:

1) that if you want more chalange you can give it a little bit more cheat resources and get more tough game.

2) gives more value to *your* strategy decisions. Heroes games are about both strategy and tactical challenges. So when AI gets a lot of free stuff, your strategy freedom fade as well. You should not think about sending a scout hero to capture AI's single gold mine to hit its economy. Because AI dont care ! It has a lot of gold. Aditionaly with more stupid strategy AI, you can more likely to predict or fool its behavior.

[Jolly Joker]

So, first lets skip battle part, in all Heroes(except H3) its more or less good.

No, that's wrong. H 4 battle AI is not good either. It may look better than the H 3 one, but compared with how you should play the game the AI is BAD. Very bad in fact, because it doesn't care much for its main capital: the heroes.

Strategic AI - yes, almost all of them have cheated more or less (maybe H4 didnt), but in Heroes1-3 AI did not need that much cheating as H5 needs, to give player entertaining game.

You are saing H2 is cheating. Yes, starting from "Hard" it receives very *small* % boost to money income and creature growth. You, as player, would *never* notice it, if you weren't told.

Small boost? Are you kidding? Quote from the strategy guide:
"Impossible:
The computer players start with 10,000 gold, 30 wood and ore, and 10 of each rare resource. Furthermore, they gain two of each resource each turn, free of charge, and they make twice as much gold as you would with the same amount of towns, castles, and mines."
Plus the other advantages PLUS additional creatures to buy with the additional money. SMALL BOOST?

For the rest: I've rather have a cheating (and without the cheats moronic) AI on the adventure map that presents a challenge on the battlefield than the other way round.

OF COURSE it would be better if BOTH elements would be up to the job. But for H 5, thinking of how low AI was on the priority list it could have been a lot worse.

[Gaidal Cain]

So, first lets skip battle part, in all Heroes(except H3) its more or less good.

No, that's wrong. H 4 battle AI is not good either. It may look better than the H 3 one, but compared with how you should play the game the AI is BAD. Very bad in fact, because it doesn't care much for its main capital: the heroes.

H5's can be pretty stupid as well. I've won battles on hard simply because the AI would have some units standing still, doing nothing, when it thought it had Archer advantage. Had it come for an all out confrontation, I would have lost badly.

For the rest: I've rather have a cheating (and without the cheats moronic) AI on the adventure map that presents a challenge on the battlefield than the other way round.

I can certainly agree with that.

[Pitsu]

For the rest: I've rather have a cheating (and without the cheats moronic) AI on the adventure map that presents a challenge on the battlefield than the other way round.

The other way around? What is that? Warlords 2?

If we talk about a strategy game, I would see nothing wrong with " every battle can be won before it starts". H5 AI is fine for a RPG with a tough boss fight.

[Jolly Joker]

Not Warlords 2. That game has no battle AI because there are no battles: if you remember, creatures are simply arrayed in the order of strength and a die is cast between them. No battles. No battle AI.

[MistWeaver]

Strategic AI - yes, almost all of them have cheated more or less (maybe H4 didnt), but in Heroes1-3 AI did not need that much cheating as H5 needs, to give player entertaining game.

You are saing H2 is cheating. Yes, starting from "Hard" it receives very *small* % boost to money income and creature growth. You, as player, would *never* notice it, if you weren't told.

Small boost? Are you kidding? Quote from the strategy guide:
"Impossible:
The computer players start with 10,000 gold, 30 wood and ore, and 10 of each rare resource. Furthermore, they gain two of each resource each turn, free of charge, and they make twice as much gold as you would with the same amount of towns, castles, and mines."
Plus the other advantages PLUS additional creatures to buy with the additional money. SMALL BOOST?

I did not say that right. When I said "small boost" I was referring to H2 "Hard" difficulty. (H2 AI on "Hard" gets 10% on gold income, + one free ore and wood / day. Not sure about amount of additional growth on this lvl. )
And the reason why I choose "Hard", is because in all Heroes, this is the first difficulty(from the beginning) where AI is not handicaped. And the boost, naturally, is lesser that on next difficulties. So that difficulty, more than others show what AI is cappable of on its own.

And, like I said, "Hard" in both games (H2/H5) gives approximately same level of chalange (if assume that H5 AI wont stuck after several weeks, which happens from time to time). But H2 AI can make it, unlike H5, without 50% discount on everything and cheating in battles with neutrals.

For the rest: I've rather have a cheating (and without the cheats moronic) AI on the adventure map that presents a challenge on the battlefield than the other way round.

Again, H2 on "Hard" is hardly can be called cheater or moron. H5-cheater, H4-moron. H2-neither.

OF COURSE it would be better if BOTH elements would be up to the job. But for H 5, thinking of how low AI was on the priority list it could have been a lot worse.

So what is this, some kind of charity ? And we should all thank for anything we were given ?

[ThunderTitan]

As long as a cigarette can calm down an angry man, thus preventing him in doing some stupid thing, what he wouldn't had thought about, it can be a "good thing", even if it's only a placebo.

That's like saying that guns must exist to stop criminals that have guns...

you want to calm down? Do some fuking breathing exercises...

"Impossible:
The computer players start with 10,000 gold, 30 wood and ore, and 10 of each rare resource. Furthermore, they gain two of each resource each turn, free of charge, and they make twice as much gold as you would with the same amount of towns, castles, and mines."

Notice the bolded part?!

H 5 AI offers a lot more challenge

See, i for one don't consider having to wait a few weeks to get enough creatures to win the map challenging... more like boring...

[Muszka]

Again, H2 on "Hard" is hardly can be called cheater or moron. H5-cheater, H4-moron. H2-neither.

I was some years ago, since I've played H2, but I still remember the AI spending whole weeks with only boarding and unboarding the same ship, on the same coast. And I can also remember the same AI flagging a single mine multiple times in a single day, and in the worste case the same player (AI), returns 3 or 4 times a week to the same mine just to flag it 5-10 more times. Now if 'he' isn't a moron, what is than?

[ProMeTheus112]

In short, I think H5 has very good graphic arts, so so sound effects, bland music, and exceptionally terrible programming.

I feel it's gameplay design is an upgraded version of Heroes 3 that didn't quite try to change what has always been poor choices from Heroes 1 : huge luck factor, little strategic value, pointless time consuming turns. General level design, as far as custom games go (I'm not interested in the campaign or playing vs AI at all), doesn't help this at all and I feel playing any of the original maps included in the game makes for boring games (nearly no contact with other players for hours before you play one big battle that decides the winner...) with next to zero strategical value.

I like many of the ideas though and they could probably be much better implemented to make an actual turn based strategy game. But right now I think it's just a bad game that looks good. Could be turned into a decent game if level design was good.

[MistWeaver]

I like many of the ideas though and they could probably be much better implemented to make an actual turn based strategy game. But right now I think it's just a bad game that looks good.

I agree. Unlike H4, H5 has much lesser value of strategy part

[Mlai]

Hmm, I love the music. I often sit there on the same town screen for 5 minutes just to hear the entire loop.

As far as multi-player goes... I for one feel that this game has more of a single-player component more than MP, as least outside of duel mode. I mean c'mon, a turn-based game where each (big) map can last days even in single-player... it doesn't make for a wide-appeal multiplayer-only type of game. Want to MP, just play duels...

And this is coming from a player who played an online RTS game competitively for 2 years, so it's not like I don't know what MP scenes (in general) is about.