Conceptiually best heroes game?

[gravyluvr]

This discussion was about Conceptual (which is subjective anyway) however when you stick the word BEST in there it might just break down into mud-slinging popularity contest. Do we really need to bring out the mud again? Let's agree to disagree on which versions we like the best. Let's take a look at some of the concepts introduced or altered with each game in the series.

King's Bounty - The Forerunner of the HOMM series (1990)

Heroes that can hire creatures
Puzzle Map
Stack based armies
Earned a commision for killing villians
4 Hero Classes (Barbarian, Knight, Paladin, and Sorceress)
Some Creatures have Special Abilities
Army Morale

Heroes of Might and Magic - A Strategic Quest (1995)

Resource Management (7 Resources: gold, wood, ore, crystal, mercury, sulfur, and gems.)
Town Building
Army Luck
Primary Skills (Attack, Defense, Knowledge, Spell Power)
4 Hero Classes (goodbye Paladin - hello Warlock)
4 Town Types with unique dwellings (Each class has corresponding faction)
Leveled Magic (refreshing at guild or shrine)

HOMM2 - The Succession Wars (1996)
Secondary Skills added
New Magic System (Spell Point System)*****
6 Hero Classes and Factions (Hello Wizard and Necromancer)
Creature Upgrades
Castle Defenses (Turrets, Moats, Captain's Quarters)
Additional build options (unique buildings for each faction)
Map Editor
Random Map Generator

HOMM2 - The Price of Loyalty (1997)
New Campaigns
New Creatures
First Expansion Pack

HOMM3 - The Restoration of Erathia (1999)
Elemental Magic (Earth, Air, Fire, Water)
8 Town Types (added Fortress and Inferno)
2 Hero Classes per faction (Might and Magic slant)

HOMM3 - Armageddon's Blade (1999)
9 Town Types (added Conflux)
Quest Towers

HOMM3 - The Shadow of Death (2000)
Added new terrain types

HOMM4 (2002)
Heroes on the Battlefield
Heroes not required for adventure map stack
Creatures with Spell Books
Caravan (no visit required unless blocked by hostile)
Might and Magic Skill System Overhauled (4 Might - 5 Magic)
Faction Based Magic
Primary and Secondary Skills merged to develop heroes
Choices of Dwelling (one choice eliminates the other)
Daily Creature Growth (instead of Weekly)
Flaggable Mines (no visit required)
Town Types consolidated (the great debate of infernopolis)

HOMM4 - The Gathering Storm (2002)
Only added Creatures, Heroes, Maps and Campaigns

HOMM4 - Winds of War (2003)
Only added Creatures, Heroes, Maps and Campaigns

I'll leave HOMM5 and HOMM5 Hammers of Fate out of the discussion for now...


All in all I'd say that KB, HOMM and HOMM2 all had quite a bit of concepts introduced. HOMM3 probably had the least amount of concepts introduced (unless we count expansions). HOMM4 had a ton of concepts introduced (hence the mud).

In general, like in all games that become a series, there are less new concepts per version. The big exception to the HOMM franchise is HOMM4.

I'm a big fan of the franchise, but this franchise has a Huge split-opinion among it's fans and nothing in this poll will change the two schools of thought.
HOMM3 did more damage than good
HOMM4 did more damage than good

The one thing you will find is that most people will never say that about HOMM2. So I guess I vote for HOMM2.

[DaemianLucifer]

Do we really need to bring out the mud again?

But of course.We need it when the next women wrestling match begins

Oh,and how come everyone forgets the underground?The best thing HIII introduced.

[gravyluvr]

HOMM3 did add underground. Maybe I should have put that in there but I wasn't going to list every new hero, artifact, landscape object. In the grand scheme, underground is an additional level but that makes the map bigger, and each version made larger maps so I didn't right down larger maps for each version. I also liked not having to write down passwords for border gates but I didn't put that down for HOMM3 either.

[DaemianLucifer]

Indeed,ut imho underground brought so much more than any of the new artifacts,new map sizes,new creatures,etc.It opened a whole new plane of mapmaking

[Jolly Joker]

This poll is not titled:
Which Heroes game has the most new features?
Right?
Instead the question is which heroes game has the best game concept. This is akin to the question: which game works best/has the best interaction of all game-constituing parts (NOT features).

[DaemianLucifer]

So,I guess you didnt read gravys analysis to the end.

[Gaidal Cain]

WoG Commander is NOT heroes on the battlefield. Wog Commander is one additional army position for a "variable and upgradable creature" IN ADDITION.

Oh, yes, it's essentially a hero on the field- apart from the fact that it has a plethora of abilities, it's not very different from a combat hero in H4. The fact that it doesn't take a creature slot doesn't have anything with the fact that it shows that when in battle, single-creature stacks can be competetive to several-creature stacks.

Multiple heroes/heroes that take slots is another concept.

[Metathron]

I'm a big fan of the franchise, but this franchise has a Huge split-opinion among it's fans and nothing in this poll will change the two schools of thought.
HOMM3 did more damage than good

I love the series as well, I think HoMM 3 is an amazing, awesome game, but I still prefer its predecessor and successor (singular). However, while HoMM IV is a frequent subject of dispute and target of disdain, I don't think I've ever heard what you say about HoMM 3 from anyone.

I also liked not having to write down passwords for border gates

That was annoying for sure.

[Jolly Joker]

WoG Commander is NOT heroes on the battlefield. Wog Commander is one additional army position for a "variable and upgradable creature" IN ADDITION.

Oh, yes, it's essentially a hero on the field- apart from the fact that it has a plethora of abilities, it's not very different from a combat hero in H4. The fact that it doesn't take a creature slot doesn't have anything with the fact that it shows that when in battle, single-creature stacks can be competetive to several-creature stacks.

Multiple heroes/heroes that take slots is another concept.

The real hero is still behind the lines, though; the number of commanders is limited to one, the spells are limited to one. The concept is completely different. Controlled environment. It works, because it is just one target out of many due to the fact that the "real" hero is still behind the lines. My personal opinion is that the game doesn't gain with the Commander, it even loses with the Fortress (but that's due to space, not to the concept, though). It doesn't lose either (with the other towns). It's simply an option. It's not a game concept that makes changes necessary. Something else completely.

[Jolly Joker]

So,I guess you didnt read gravys analysis to the end.

Yes, I did. He still mixes features and concepts.
His vote is ok, though.

[Akul]

JJ, you seem to complain just for sake of complaining.
Features I listed are connected with the concept because without features, there is no concept. There is just a clone.

BTW, how is it that you didn't start worshiping H5 in this tread?

[TheUndeadKing]

I just wanted to drop by and list a few things I love about H5:

1. Heroes can kill black dragons, titans, archangels... etc without getting any damage at all.
They also ignore mighty walls, creatures (and towers maybe?) during the process!

2. A "lucky" horde of blade dancers can kill off another stack of blade dancers with the same
quantity. After all, luck favors the strong, doesn't it?

3. A small number of lvl1 Sprites/Pixies can destroy large numbers of higher level creatures,
such as lvl2 Zombies (or even lvl3 Minotaurs). The new initiative system at its finest!

4. (See #2 and #3 first) With the aid of the retaliation system, #2 and #3 constitute the
"flawless victory" concept. Apparently, the developers were inspired by Mortal Kombat.

5. You can cast some spells on black dragons, because those magical spells do physical damage.
Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, "immune to magic".

6. The Incorporeal ability in H5 is better than the Insubstantial ability in H4,
and Phantom Forces is better than Phantom Image. Why? Because we should be able to
miss them completely when we're fighting against swarms of creatures. Even our "spells"
should miss, because Phantom Forces cost a lot of mana, and such great effort should not be
punished.

7. Everything in H4 sucked, anyway.

8. ...and some more. (lol)

[/sarcasm]

Special Note: This is just my opinion, so don't flare up instantly. H5 is a good game
in its own (albeit flawed), and I respect those people who like H5.

[Akul]

This tread became nothing more but th hell thanks to JJ and us.
Because noone will agree, lets just forget about this, ok?

I am leaving the discusion.

[gravyluvr]

So,I guess you didnt read gravys analysis to the end.

Yes, I did. He still mixes features and concepts.
His vote is ok, though.

Yeah. Sorry JJ.

When someone posts a poll like this it's open to interpretation.

I started with Conceptually Best...
Broke Conceptually down to "Ideas" and Best down to "I like"

Ideas I Like

Additionally... the author of the poll said...

Hi!

I'd just like to ask everybody which Heroes of Might & Magic game they think is the best conceptually. Which has the best designed factions when it comes to uniqueness and following the given theme. Which has the most interesting ideas for faction themes.

Best Designed Factions (totally my open onion)
1. Warlock from HOMM1-2
2. Nature from HOMM4
3. Sorceress Town from HOMM2
4. Wizard/Tower from all games
5. Life from HOMM4
6. Necro from all games
7. Rampart from HOMM3
8. Barbarian/Stronghold/Might from all games
9. Chaos from HOMM4 and Conflux, Fortress and Dungeon from HOMM3
X. Inferno and Castle from HOMM3

Just so you can say exactly why I am totally wrong... These three ideas just killed me about HOMM3

1. You upgrade everything! There is no good reason to not upgrade.

2. They killed my castle! Goodbye Warlock town. Your troops are now located in the Rampart, the Tower, the Dungeon, the Fortress, and the Castle. Good luck finding them!

3. I had perfected the daisy chain shuttle system and could flip my army to destroy the enemy at any time because the AI or friend could never figure out my force that I had in contact with one another - and through garrisoned heroes I could have 12 or more heroes in my army that did nothing other than shuttle troops. (I spent 30 minutes per turn flipping that stupid army so I could flag one mine or take one castle or knock out that big enemy hero. And DimDoor and Town Portal Broke games because we could pop back to town to defend/kill or we could hop each other's chains to break the hand-off hero and ruin our opponent's chain with or without killing the Super Hero (who always had enough heroes to run/surrender) unless they had the Shackles breaker. (sorry for the rant). I truly loved HOMM3 but HOMM4 brought so many new concepts to the table and took out the tactics that my friends called "cheats" because I always used them and turned our games into Marathon matches. We even started a 3 hero maximum rule in our games to speed up the turns.

[Metathron]

1. You upgrade everything! There is no good reason to not upgrade.

What good reason is there in favour of the upgrades? To me, they are trite, and make the game dull.

[ThunderTitan]

1. You upgrade everything! There is no good reason to not upgrade.

What good reason is there in favour of the upgrades? To me, they are trite, and make the game dull.

From what i can tell gravy agrees.

And JJ, implementation != concept. Utopias are pretty nifty concepts, but by definition you can't implement them (and if communism taught us anything you shouldn't even try).

Now i'm not gonna say that heroes on BF can or can't work, but it does sound good as a concept.

[Jolly Joker]

JJ, you seem to complain just for sake of complaining.
Features I listed are connected with the concept because without features, there is no concept. There is just a clone.

BTW, how is it that you didn't start worshiping H5 in this tread?

My contract ran out, so I don't get paid anymore.

And no to your first paragraph. H 3 has basically the same concept than H2 but certainly more features. That doesn't make the concept better, though.

[Jolly Joker]

1. You upgrade everything! There is no good reason to not upgrade.

What good reason is there in favour of the upgrades? To me, they are trite, and make the game dull.

From what i can tell gravy agrees.

And JJ, implementation != concept. Utopias are pretty nifty concepts, but by definition you can't implement them (and if communism taught us anything you shouldn't even try).

Now i'm not gonna say that heroes on BF can or can't work, but it does sound good as a concept.

If I understand you right you are saying that HoFB is the utopia that sounds good as a concept, but can't work (and you shouldn't even try). I think I never did agree more with you!

For upgrades it depends on the system. The main difference in game terms between having 7 army slots for 7 upgradable creatures and 7 army slots for 14 different creatures is that you dont have to leave creatures behind. Which is good.

[ThunderTitan]

If I understand you right you are saying that HoFB is the utopia that sounds good as a concept, but can't work (and you shouldn't even try). I think I never did agree more with you!

Disciples...

[ByteBandit]

The very first computer game I bought was HoMM1. I think that it was groundbreaking since it was the first game that when you played it, the map always changed. ( The random factor. )

Heroes II was exceptional, in that the gameplay was so tight. It also made it possible to play my all time favorite map "Lighbringer." I loved the music, the introduction of the Undead, and the chance to build the almost perfect maps for gameplay.

Heroes 3 was sic! 8 or 9 towns to choose from, mapmaking to a total new level with the introduction to the Underground. What I most liked about the game, was early on, 3DO actually listened to the community of fans and made the game with the fans in mind for improvement over H2. This is perhaps the only game of the Heroes Saga that will have the most replayability with the advent of WoG, especially once 3.59 is realized.

I never played Heroes IV, simply because of all the negative feedback from Rock solid Heroes fans of long ago. But, I am open minded, and wished that Ubisoft released Heroes IV Complete in the U.S. They did'nt, so I can't get it here. (I don't buy stuff on line. Need a credit card for that and I don't like giving banks ANY money...even interest.)

Heroes V, I can't play. My Comp won't take it so I'm SoL. The screens I've seen look too Japanese Anime for me. I think Japanese Anime is okay, but it looks too "Generic" as far as other games look. SO I don't feel at a loss.

These are my opinions of the Heroes Saga. And btw, I voted H2.