Renegade units in Addon

Mytical · Unread postby **Mytical** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:09

Not my place, but is debating good and evil on a HoMMV site really appropriate? Peoples view on the subject varies, and I have been guilty as others about the debate, but perhaps it is time to move on???

asandir · Unread postby **asandir** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:10

the motive (or purpose) is still evil, regardless of whether it is acted upon

you can have good thoughts, bad thoughts, indifferent thoughts ....

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:35

But it's inconsequential for deciding whether a faction or person like Markal is good or evil.

Mytical · Unread postby **Mytical** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:39

To try to get back on topic, any new news about the renegades yet?

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Lurkar · Unread postby **Lurkar** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:40

Where does it say the necromancers of this game want to kill everyone? That's more in the earlier games.

Mytical · Unread postby **Mytical** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:55

Sorry, wasn't going to do this, but I got to say..Markel not evil?? So manipulating Isabel, throwing a whole kingdom into chaos and ruin, raising an supposedly nobel king into a bloodravenous undead THING is not evil? Or at least what is considered evil by our current society. Then I wonder what they heck is....

Sadly more and more it is getting to the point where we are the 'not me' generation. As kids if asked who left the door open it was always 'not me' I won't get into this as I think this is not the place for this debate. I am sorry that I got drawn back into this. I appologize wholeheartedly.

asandir · Unread postby **asandir** » 05 Sep 2006, 09:09

But it's inconsequential for deciding whether a faction or person like Markal is good or evil.

of course it is .... but now you are changing the grounds of the debate

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 05 Sep 2006, 09:14

But that's what the discussion is about: whether certain factions are evil or not. And my point was (since someone brought that up) that motives and purposes aren't what is decisive here. An evil pupose doesn't make a faction evil because the purpose isn't enough. Likewise, a good purpose doesn't make a faction good, for just the same reason.

asandir · Unread postby **asandir** » 05 Sep 2006, 09:38

and i agree with your point, my argument was against the very broad statement that motives, or purpose, cannot be evil or good

nothing like a well debated point to warm the blood, especially when the opposing views don't degenerate into a flame war

Gaidal Cain · Unread postby **Gaidal Cain** » 05 Sep 2006, 11:09

Jolly Joker wrote:Good or evil is not decided over motives; it's the means that make the difference.

Saying that intentions doesn't matter is just as wrong as saying that they're everything. Someone who wants to kill of every living person but hasn't got the means is evil. Someone who starts of a genocide to "purge" the world does evil acts. There are lots of ways to look at it, but in the end, but omitting the reasons is going to cost you part of the picture, and thus makes it harder to come to a good understanding of the matter.

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 05 Sep 2006, 12:16

There is a saying: "The road to hell is paved with good purposes."
Which is very true.
This is no trial where people decide to agree on a measure of punishment. This is simply to decide whether a faction or a person is evil or not.
This one here, GC: "Someone who wants to kill of every living person but hasn't got the means is evil." is absurd. Imagine a cripple lying in bed, paralyzed and unable to do anything. He wants to kill the whole world. Is he evil? No, he is just a powerless cripple and has bitter thoughts, but he isn't evil because he hasn't the means to be anything. He isn't good either. Everyone else who wants that and IS evil WILL JUST START. You know, it may be impossible, but I can even try.
Good and Evil is applicable only on persons who HAVE the means to be so.

Kilop · Unread postby **Kilop** » 05 Sep 2006, 13:26

Good and Evil is applicable only on persons who HAVE the means to be so.

... soooo if Hitler had not been elected, he wouldn t have been evil, just a sympathic powerless bastard ???

soupnazii · Unread postby **soupnazii** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:02

i was just going to say that. imagine a Hitler who never came to power. he would stilll want to destroy all jews and gypsies and homosexuals and whoever else in the world, but simply because he doesnt have the power he isnt considered evil? now imagine a dictator or president or some sort of leader (a good man, not a hated person) who somehow gets forced to manipulate his country and kill every other person, but against his own will. is that man considered evil? i think good and evil can only be measured by a persons true inner feelings, and not by the type of actions they take.

Mytical · Unread postby **Mytical** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:13

"Evil triumphs when good people sit and do nothing."

don't ask me where the quote is from, but I know I've heard it before. We all do have a dark part in us; however, and if you believe you don't that part has fooled you into believing this. "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people believe he doesn't exist." In a way JJ is right, I know sometimes when I am very angry I might think "Geesh I wish I could do something to so and so." Does that make me evil? No. In a way Stefan is right, if you constantly think about it, then there is deffinately something wrong.
If you do do something though, imho, a much worse thing is blaming something else for your CHOICE to follow through with this. That is too hot a topic though so I won't elaborate. Thinking the occasional dark thought is human nature, thinking it constantly is Evil. This debate could rage for an eternity and never get settled. Society decides the 'norm', but each person's view of good and evil is as different as snowflakes.
Anyhow, I have said my 2g worth for now...I will wait to see what follows.

soupnazii · Unread postby **soupnazii** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:30

Mytical302 wrote:I know sometimes when I am very angry I might think "Geesh I wish I could do something to so and so." Does that make me evil?

of course not, cause thats just angry thoughts, not your true feelings. there is a difference between anger or hate and true evil. like i said, evil is all aout your true feelings.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:31

stefan.urlus wrote: if my motive is to rape someone, then it is evil

Rapeing someone is not a reason, for crying out loud.

he would stilll want to destroy all jews and gypsies and homosexuals and whoever else in the world,

WE don´treally know that. For all we know he just used that as an excuse to gain power. It´s not like he fit in his own definition of the perfect human.

And motives are either justified or unjustified. Wanting to kill all the jew isn´t a reason, it´s a result of something. Same thing with wanting to get the DM, it´s a result of being created with the sole purpose to destroy the world for no real reason.

Where does it say the necromancers of this game want to kill everyone? That's more in the earlier games.

Because ultimate power for a necro is having everyone obey him unconditionaly, which comes with having everyone be undead.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:36

Ok,lets look at this again from heroes angle:Solmyr from HIV is not evil,even though he is forced to do evil things because hes bound by an oath.Gauldoth,again,is not evil,even though he is a necromancer and he did have revenge on people that wanted to kill him.They both are just humans(well,technically speaking,neither of them is human,but you know what I meant).

In HV,however,you dont have this subtlety.You might try to argument that aaeglr isnt evil because he saved isabel,but his only motivation was saving isabel.So he killed numerous elves just in order to save a single pompeous bitch.I sure would call that singleminded,shallow and evil.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:40

soupnazii wrote: like i said, evil is all aout your true feelings.

No, it´s about fear and psychological trauma.

soupnazii · Unread postby **soupnazii** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:41

ThunderTitan wrote:
he would stilll want to destroy all jews and gypsies and homosexuals and whoever else in the world,
WE don´treally know that. For all we know he just used that as an excuse to gain power. It´s not like he fit in his own definition of the perfect human.

assuming you are no historian/psychologist or anything, i dont think you have a right to say something like that as if it was fact. some people know the very reasons for his actions. he defined the perfect human as an exact opposite of himself. why would he do that? some people have explanations. they say he hated himself. but the point its, he hated jews (and gypsies and homosexuals) and as far as he was concerened they were resposible for everything thast went wrong in his life. when he rose to power he simply finally had a way to do something about it. if he was somehow unsuccesful in rising to power, it would just be all the more reason to hate jews. thats what i think, although i am also no historian or psychologist.

soupnazii · Unread postby **soupnazii** » 05 Sep 2006, 14:42

ThunderTitan wrote:
soupnazii wrote: like i said, evil is all aout your true feelings.
No, it´s about fear and psychological trauma.

which make your true feelings against so-and-so evil.

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Renegade units in Addon

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