I do not give up with academy!

[letsrock]

I just tried Jhora again today in Land of Outcasts (Hard) online and the levels that she got at end of week 1, 2, 3 were: 5, 12, 17.

Skills: Summoning Magic, Light Magic, Enlightenment, Logistics, Sorcery.

A bit lucky as I had Fire Trap as level 1 spell (I think it has 50% chance to show up) in the Mage Guild and the artifact gives +1 damage to all creatures, but it shows that other Academy heroes (other than Havez) can do well (even without War Machines - Tent).

[Kilop]

ok so what following your strategy, what should I make against some casters defending my sulfur mine ( wihhout wich I can t make any archmage )... that s right, no more MG.
or against master hunters for that mater, i have no garg , since upgrading for golems deny on most maps enought ore. so my MG get tei ass kicked!

[letsrock]

I only upgrade level 1. All other level I just tried to build basic building first. My combo is MG + unupgraded golem (not upgraded ones).

Again casters/master hunters:

- I can attack in week 2 if I have Tent skill.

- Otherwise I wait until week 3-4 when my hero has very high level, so stronger magic and bigger army. I lose some troops, but I am still better off as I have the resources to make mini-artifacts for other troops.

[Mytical]

Well don't ask me what you'd do vs magi/arch magi. As they would really pound you with there pass through enemies, but that being said this is not a bad tactic, for the most part. Archliches can ruin your day by targeting the golems, and dungeon can really have fun doing direct magic attacks on you if they have IM. Really you don't even need this 1.3. Lets go with only level 1's and 2's against this. First off your MG have the problem they don't do much range damage, and your golems are stuck in the corner unable to do anything but protect your MG.

Skel archers upgrade, and zombies. Ok this one you have a lot of chance against, even though there should be a lot more skel archers. Since we will assume that you and your opponit is lvl 1 for this, it wont be a huge difference though. Even if you split off your MG that just means they only get to repair a little damage to a golem and now there zombie is between you and the skel archers. So you exchange fire. If you target there zombies, your going to loose, and if they target your golems likewise. You likely have more spellpoints, but not as much Spellpower. Lets go with both of you even having identical eldritch arrow spells. He hits your MG with the spell, you hit his Skellies. Both tents do what they are supposed to (at this level neither of you have aid skill so lets skip that). by the time you defeat his skel archers, if your gremlins survive it will be barely, and now you have to send your golems after his zombies..probably out of ammo by now and can't risk those MG. So you have to move all your golem units as one, or the zombies will just pick them off one by one. Sure your golems get extra retal, but since there is only one zombie stack, doesn't come into play. If you win it will be a bare thing, and I personally think you wont.

Ok lets go with Sylvan. Well you got waspswarm and eldritch arrows vs your mg, so they are going to be hurting before the actual combat really gets heated up. Sure you ping them but since you have a far distance really doesn't do much. Now they close in and the dancers come with. Now here is where you would normally start owning them. Except that again your golems extra retal doesn't really help...so again they take a beating, and your MG would be hurting as soon as even one went down. take the fay in and since your mg's get no retal they go down sort of quick if your lucky your golems can take out the fay, but that leavs them open to a can of hurt from the dancers.

Familiars/Demons. Well your mana isn't going to be much after they are done with you. Sure you get a couple hits before they close, but they both should be able to gate and that limits things for you a lot. They can tie up your golems and cause you all kinds of mischief. Would be a interesting bout however.

Assassins/furies. A real nightmare for you, even if you both do limited range damage. 1st they can poison you, so that means you take extra damage each round. Tents don't heal the poison, and since you have only 1 spell at this time, your hurting. (its like 2 attacks to one) as they close the furies are probably going to be your main target, and he is going to ignore your golems since he can't poison them with his assassins. Since her attack and return doesn't help her much her (in fact it hurts her) this could go either way, but I think you'd loose this fight.

Now the reason I had upgraded is you said your gremlin's are upgraded. In the longer run you would even be more of a disadvantage. Soon as succubi mistress comes into the picture or dragons, or many other things, your MG/Golem trick starts working against you. And your other units just don't have much going for them. Believe me I am a rabid Academy fan, and I have had some success in rare cases. Still the magic just isn't as strong as it used to be, the units suffer do to low att/def, and the artifacts are just so danged expensive it is either them or buildings. And you really need buildings to pump out the creatures to protect yourself while your spells are gaining strength.

[okrane]

I never played multi-player so my opinion is just for single player.

Havez I tried him out and he is really strong... it sorta a might oriented wizard, and I agree that Flaming Arrows + Attack really rule, if wizards only had the triple ballista perk it would be extremely powerful.

Also I tried out Jhora... and she horked well in the circumstances. I'm using a mod that makes the ultimates much easier to get so I mainly developped Sorcery and Enlightment since they are the prerequisites. But early game I have done the creeping with a very small army and just my hero. One of my favorite spells is Decay. Early on I prefer it to any DD spell, but ideally it would getting decay and a DD spell in your mage guild(like Ice bolt).
So I got decay and then Advanced Dark magic and Master of Pain. Creeping is easy and fun with this spell. You would sacrifice some gargs or golems in fighting ranged creeps but I find it is not a big loss.

My computer Sylvan oponent attacked me with a much larger force. In week 3 he had 2 Green Dragons 30 hunters and so on... while I had a few mages and golems. I just poisoned his army and in the meanwhile cast other DD spells... Even if it was a tight battle I managed to win. This was before getting the ultimate.


Of course after getting the ultimate (levl 20 or so)I ruled the game, but this another story...

[Mytical]

Ah that would explain it . Yes that changed things a lot for me and made Academy playable again. I thought it was non mods my appologies .

[okrane]

Well the story with decay was before getting teh ultimate(I edited so it would be more clear).., And I don't know if that solves the balance... Imagine that you go against Sylvan... Your opponent will get the ultiamte also, and rip through your army with his lucky shots before you get the chance to cast any spells...

[Alamar]

With Academy's strong heros vs. "random" heroes of other factions they are fairly competitive.

Havez is a beast early and on tiny maps choosing him might mean victory right there.

If you play with a random hero and don't get Havez to boost Gremlin numbers early Academy is one of the weaker factions [with my play style].

FYI some hotseat stats:

Haven against other factions == 9 wins and 1 loss
Necros against other factions == 7 wins 2 loss 1 draw
Dungeon against other factions == 5 wins 4 losses 1 draw
Academy against other factions == 1 win 7 losses 2 draws
Inferno against other factions == 3 wins 6 losses and 1 draw
Sylvan against other factions == 2 wins 7 losses and 1 draw

[Note all of Infernos victories & draws were w/ Deleb!]

Haven & Necros on big maps are head & shoulders ahead of everyone else. Dungeon is next. Random heroes means that Academy, Inferno, and Sylvan all have issues on big maps.

[letsrock]

@Mytical: as I said, you should go online to play vs some good Academy players.

@Alamar: I know you did a lot of testing, however, your result may reflect the fact that you play some races better than other ones. The same thing applies for every body. Now, let's say a very balanced game like Warcraft 3, if I do some testing myself, I will say that Orc is strongest because I am best at Orc, and Undead is weak because I am sucked at Undead. But the fact is that all the 4 races are very balanced.

Another example, the game I mentioned. I used Jhora as the main hero in Land of Outcasts (Hard) online and the levels that she got at end of week 1, 2, 3 were: 5, 12, 17 (no War Machines skills). Level 17 at end of week 3 is very strong. I don't think I can get to that level with a medium Inferno hero or even the best Sylvan hero. Again, however, that could be due to the fact that I am sucked at Inferno (without Deleb) and Sylvan.

The final thing that I want to say in this topic: The real game imbalances can only be confirmed through serious competitive online playing, with the most competitive players for each race. For example, Infiltrator playing Dungeon vs Bandobras Took playing Inferno vs Vlad playing Sylvan and so on..., and it needs quite a while as players can learn to adapt and change to counter other races' strength.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

[quote="letsrock
@Alamar: I know you did a lot of testing, however, your result may reflect the fact that you play some races better than other ones. The same thing applies for every body. Now, let's say a very balanced game like Warcraft 3, if I do some testing myself, I will say that Orc is strongest because I am best at Orc, and Undead is weak because I am sucked at Undead. But the fact is that all the 4 races are very balanced.


The final thing that I want to say in this topic: The real game imbalances can only be confirmed through serious competitive online playing
[/quote]

Alamar's results fall pretty much according to how town strength lies.

I strongly disagree that town balance can only be determined in competitive multiplayer games. In multiplayer only certain uber heroes tend to be played.

Playing the game on different maps with random heroes is more indicative of the town strength rather than the strength of a particular imbalanced heroe who because of an imbalanced specialty excels at a particular strategy that the other heroes don't have a prayer of pulling off.

There needs to be rebalancing among both town types and individual heroes IMHO.

GOW

[okrane]

Well I'd say that the most important place where balance is needed is online play... A game that is not balanced will be no fun in MP since if your oponent will use the overpowered strategy, whatever that is, you will simply don't stand a chance. Same goes with you using that strat against someone else...simply you will have no fun...

In single player balancing is important but not crucial, because the gameplay of the computer oponents can be easily anticipated and countered...
Let's take H4. Pre Equilibris versions were imbalanced but still I had lots of fun in singleplayer with all towns. But getting owned by some abuser is on fun at all...

To sum up I think I agree with letsrock... If you really want to balance a game do it with lots of Multiplayer testing...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

To sum up I think I agree with letsrock... If you really want to balance a game do it with lots of Multiplayer testing...

For that you need:
1) to keep the same group of players.
2) the players need to be of equal skill level.
3) each player needs to take turns playing the same position with the same heroe as the last player.
4) each player needs to play each position with every hero.
5) this needs to be done with quite a few maps.
6) each player needs to be thouroughly familiar with each map before any game is played on the map to preven one player's familiarity with the map from skewing the results. That is unless that particular map is new to all players.
7) Make sure noone cheats.

I don't think you will get together a group of players that can devote that amount of time and the results will be no more valid than the single player experience.

GOW

[Elvin]

@Grumpy Old Wizard:Heh,you are asking a lot! A reason why most statistical services cannot present completely precise figures is the cost and time it takes for their survey.You could never hope to analyse H5 so fully anyway due to chance and chaos,ranging from a luck roll at the right time to a slip of the player because he was distracted.Our best chances lie in a lot of multi games and if possible,in balanced unknown maps,with good players controlling medium tiered heroes.If the rmg is good it will be of great help.

[Alamar]

Please note that my tests only show results from:

1. Heroic difficulty
2. Relatively large maps
3. Are only based on my personal play style.

Anyone else's results would vary depending on the maps, difficulty level, and playstyle of the person running the map.

As such I do believe that much more testing would need to be done and allowing UBI / Nival to monitor competitive MP with both random and chosen heroes would be virtually required to get enough testing to come to real conclusions about balance.

With that out of the way though I honestly think that I see a few patterns that probably apply to most of the "average skill" heroes players though:

1. Haven & Necro are too good on large maps at high difficulty settings. Overhauls of Training, Necromancy, troop stats, growth, etc. probably need to be done ... this level of change could probably only be justified in an expansion though.

2. I had ENOURMOUS problems taking real advantage of Academy's racial ability because the game didn't go long enough to build up enough spare resources to make a difference.

3. If you choose one of the "have not" factions [esp. Inferno or Academy] with random heroes and consistently beat one of the stronger factions then you're either a much better player than your competition or much luckier.

4. I find that the recent resource cost changes make the game less fun [for me] because upgrades are now few & far between. Besides the "must have upgrades" I pretty much don't bother any more ...

[Sir_Toejam]

4. I find that the recent resource cost changes make the game less fun [for me] because upgrades are now few & far between. Besides the "must have upgrades" I pretty much don't bother any more ...

i started a thread to experiment with various building resource changes over in the mod guild forum.

gotta start somewhere.

[Alamar]

@SJ: Thanks for the work that you're putting into trying to fix things to make it better for the mod-playing community.

The thing is that I'm of 2 minds on this issue. On one hand I sort of like the higher costs because you must be miserly and make VERY hard choices about what to build, when, etc.

However even in a loonnggg game I'm pretty much not upgrading most things because I simply don't have the resources to do so and I miss NOT being able to walk around with my nice shiny upgraded troops.

Having build costs in between what they were in patch 1.2 and what they are currently in 1.3 would be a good starting point.

[PhoenixReborn]

I've seen a lot of word about what's wrong with academy. What's wrong with inferno? I like many of the heroes, not just Deleb. She's boring. There's a movement hero and a gating hero etc... what's so underpowered about them? What's the difference between having Grok and having Vittorio?

[Jolly Joker]

I think, it is a grave mistake to make balancing tests in heroic difficulty. On heroic difficulty, since you are always badly in need of everything one resource pile or a chest can make the difference. There are so many important aspects. You may, for example, win with a Hero starting with Luck and getting Lucky Adventurer immediately.

On the other hand, complaining about resource levels while playing on Heroic makes no sense. Heroic does not mean "smooth playing experience". You should be stuck at some point, and you should be constantly between the virtual rock and the hard place. Ideally every single gold piece and resource unit should matter: it's called heroic to offer a challenge. That makes it unbalanced by definition because a Wood pile giving out 9 Wood or 4 can make a lot of a difference. If it's no fun, play on hard. If you are too proud to play on hard, you can't blame the game.

That makes Hard the difficulty level of choice, balance-wise. Hard is the level where you are not so hard pressed right from the start that you can make informed decisions on how to play because you have the time to explore some part of the map before you have to make your really important decisions, like what is attainable when and with how many troops.

[Mytical]

I only play sp, but to me academy seems mostly famine with an occasional feast. When you get the right map, with the right resources on your front lawn, they do great. Amazing even. Most maps typically don't drop the resources you need right in your lap though, and most of the ones Academy needs are protected by casters/ranged, which is hard on Academy. Lets forget the resource thing for awhile though and concentrate instead on creatures.

Gremlins are all but useless, so must upgrade to Master Gremlins for any kind of use. Some of the worst tier 1 creatures, though the MG gets a little boost because they can repair a tier 3 creature.

Gargoyles are next to useless, but obsidian makes them a little more useful. The obsidian's mr is its best attribute, but there speed makes them take a lot of damage before even reaching enemy, and you can't use them to block mages because they will take damage also.

Golems. Very tough and and the fact that one of there units can heal them really help, but a lot of other level 3's get ranged so this can hurt them in the level 3 ranks.

Mages ... hmm hitting more then one enemy, magic use, these are wicked units. If only they didn't hurt your own troops and were a little tougher they could easily be the best tier 4 creatures.

Djinn - well from the very decent Mages to ...these..makes me want to . Too frail, magic too unpredictable, and of very little use all arround..except to soak up retals.

Rakshasa- if they were a little faster (which can be made up by artificer or regular artifacts) and a little tougher, these would be very scary creatures.. as is they are still decent, but nowhere near the top of the pack.

Colossus- well compaired to unupgraded 7th tier, not so hot. Still not a total waste either.

Titan - ah now here we go. One of the best units in the game (finally) its ranged attack means that with few exceptions it gets a free shot before anything even gets close, and when they do they are not much better off. Scary, tough, and cool. One of the few saving graces of the Academy.

All these can be brought to par by artificer IF you can afford it...if not you have to be amazingly good, amazingly lucky, and/or cheat . Since I rarely cheat and am only so/so lucky my being good at playing them sometimes just isn't enough.

[Jolly Joker]

I disagree with most of the unit assessments.
For me it looks a bit like you haven't really been able to put those units to their most effective use until now - no offense, please.
Mages handling, for example. You can handle Mages 2 ways. Let's you you got them built in week one, so on day 8 you hire 10 of them. Basically you have two ways now to handle them. The Fist of Wrath damage of one stack of 10 Mages is 84. The FoW damage of 5 stacks with 2 mages each is 5*42 = 210. This is a lot more damage output. So against high speed/shooter, but low HP creatures it all amounts to the question of splitting (unguarded) and being able to kill them with the first complete strike (stack 6 are Gremlins, stack 7 Gargoyles, all unupgraded and no Golems needed).
On the other hand you have the no-range penalty on the shot which will give your stack of 10 Mages a very decent shooting attack. Dividing your Gargoyles in 4 stacks and keeping the mages concentrated is another way to go. You'd deploy the Gremlins on the right-most bottom square, Mages adjacent, 3 stacks of Gargoyles adjacent to that; the 4th Gargoyle stack is deployed in front of the Gremlins. That leaves your mages a free field of shot; put the the two leftmost Gargoyles on wait and fly them in front of the mages as soon as it gets nebessary, which will from then on use their spell sttack.
That's 2 different ways of handling things, both having their pros and cons, but both making use of the mages' abilities.
My experience is, I don't need the Gremlin upgrade nor the Golem upgrade in week one. In fact I use Golems ONLY with Master Gremlins and rarely unupgraded.
Gargoyles are a really cool unit. For all I care they cood have a damage output of 0-1, they would still be good, because they are faster and more agile than the other meat shields and have very decent magic immunities.
Lastly, Genies are damage-doers , not meat-shields. They have a solid attack value and deal massive damage in the upgraded version which is reasonably fast as well. Genies are a very good Phantom. Genies are easy to resurrect as well. You have 2 very solid low level stacks, so what you need is not another solid bulk, you need a unit being able to do damage, and Genies are exactly that. A Genie Phantom is awkward, to say the least. As a sidenote, the change of Consume Artifact will be of very good use for them - if you produce min-artifacts, that is. The next solid unit then is the Rakshasa. The unit has the same characteristic than the Nagas in H3 which means you really have to bring them down.
The bottom line is that your unit levels 3-7 are all capable of doing an immense amount of base damage - that can be bolstered by artifacts. Armor-piercing artifact on Golems with their multi-retaliation will, for example, have nice effects in longer battles, and so on.