I do not give up with academy!

[Kilop]

Since I am a fan of titans ( not the city, not the magic, yep just titans ... ), I want to balance academy, in order to be at last able to play my big huge arrogants thunder giants, as i want.
I wrote this on the modsection forum, but it belongs here aswell...

Since, academy suffer early game, because of the quick loss of master grem, and slow of golems, lack of dom of garg.

One way of fixing that , and still remaining "logical" , would be to add ( replacing the horrible consume artifact ) a skill similar to eternal sevitude, named mechanical servitude that would only work with garg , gol and maybe titans. it would resurect half of the dead mechanical after a fight if you are willing to pay again for them, ( maybe with a maximum a the x*hero lvl ...for example, at lvl 10 a mage could resurect 20 golem, 40 garg , and 1 titan )
This would solve the problem academy has early on ... And no I don t think that they have a ressource problem, their problem is atak / def and poor creatures synergies ( think archmages ... ).
Another solution would be to change the way heroes get their points ( i like 30 30 15 15 , but you may propose a diferent one )

... or just buff genies HP, or give them no retlal ...or something!

Do you think it is a good idea, or do you have any better ones?



btw, IM is fine the way it is

[Elvin]

The problem is earlytime alright but I doubt changing consume artifact would help.First of all academy is vulnerable in the first two weeks.Why?The wizard has little power to deal good magic damage and won't get defence/attack skills easily or fast enough.He is rather forced to take summoning/light(due to availability,spellpower) which don't help a lot earlygame and can't build mage guilds right away due to costly creature dwellings.Gremlins and mages are good if easy to kill and need protection.Gargoyles if split will protect them but since you won't surround your mages(line-attack) you need a tank to draw enemy fire.If you build golems you won't be able to build genies nor rakshasas.And genies die too easily.Heck even rakshasas may be delayed until week 3 or more.
About 'mechanical servitude' the point is not about resurrecting as academy has little losses vs neutrals but surviving against another player.Maybe a slight boost in mage hp(just think druid hp even though they have base growth 4),+1 damage for gargoyles,+def/hp for genies and finally less resource costs for golems so that building them does not prevent building genies and rakshasas in week 2.
Now we drain our resources in dwellings and can't utilize mage guilds or artificer until a lot later.Maybe if artificer cost less?Say 3-4 of each resource instead of 5?Anything that can keep you alive before titans come into play!(I don't consider ALL these changes but at least a few if academy wants to compete with others)

[Arqane]

While a Salvage skill would be nice for Wizards (found a leg here, head over here, torso... that should be enough), Golems are potentially FAR too powerful to salvage besides the Gremlin's ability.

On the other hand, since pretty much everyone but me thinks that Academy is too weak now, maybe switching up Consume Artifact, which is almost never used, with another skill would be nice. I wouldn't mind a Stone Crafting (Gargoyles) skill.

Gargoyles don't add alot of punch by themselves, especially Stone Gargoyles. However, they do a good job at soaking damage, and blocking ranged a bit. That gives you a bit longer to cast spells or form a strategy, which is what the Academy is really about.

So I wouldn't mind seeing that skill added. It could do Level/4 Stone Gargoyles per day. That would mean 1/day at the beginning, enough to soak a bit of damage, but hardly overpowering. At L20, that would be upwards of 35/week (normal growth with a castle is 28/week). So never really overpowering, but could be useful as a skill.

[Jolly Joker]

No, I don't have a problem with Academy as well.
With the new spell costs in a big battle and with MotW used you may run out of spell points - which you shouldn't, so the ability isn't so bad. However, it's probably an ability that isn't used often - not in the course of the normal game, at least.
How about something like adding a function to that? Call it something like "artifact management" which would allow consuming or replacing (changing it from one stack to another in battle)?

[Gaidal Cain]

Perhaps not in battle, but out of battle replacing sounds like a good idea. You could even be allowed to carry around extra artifacts that aren't on a stack and use them. Or perhaps salvage artifacts from killed stacks, even if only in form of some of the resources that went into making it.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

No, I don't have a problem with Academy as well.
With the new spell costs in a big battle and with MotW used you may run out of spell points - which you shouldn't, so the ability isn't so bad. However, it's probably an ability that isn't used often - not in the course of the normal game, at least.
How about something like adding a function to that? Call it something like "artifact management" which would allow consuming or replacing (changing it from one stack to another in battle)?

A few comments:

1) Artifacts cannot actually be built until very late in a very big map. The racial skill cannot be brought into play on big maps until the map is pretty much over. Artifacts cannot be built on maps smaller than big.

The wizard also has to make long journeys back to his castle not only to learn spells (when he can finally build his guild up) but also to make artifacts (late in the game on very big maps.)

Resources continue to be important throughout the game. You have to build up other castles in order to be able to garrison them with troops to keep them from being reconquered by the enemy. So even on the larger maps you have to decide wether to build artifacts or garrison the towns you conquer.

2) The wizard, who is totally dependent on magic (his attributes are firstly knowledge and as a distant second spell power) cannot build the mage guild fast enough to learn the spells he needs early. The wizards will have only level 1 (or 2 at the most) spells for at least the first month. Higher level spells will come later. That is not good for a faction that relies on magic.

Knowledge and spellpower do not directly help your troops like attack and defense do. The only way a wizard can actully help his troops is to be able to cast good spells.

Yes, you can sort of play a might character by playing the golem specialist since he increases the attack and defense of his golems, but if you want to play might there are other factions much better for that and the wizard should not be forced into taking only one heroe, otherwise delete all the other mightless "wizards" and rename the heroe class something other than "wizard."

3) The 1.3 patch continued the course of weakening the wizards primary magic school, summoning magic. The summoning school was already the weakest school before the nerfing of the last 2 patches.

One of the most powerful spells in the wizard's secondary magic school, light magic, does not affect 2 of the wizard's troops. I am of course speaking of resurrection and the inability of golems and gargoyles to be resurrected.

4) Master gremlins now have a mostly useless ability after being nerfed. Overall the wizard's troops are weaker than other towns troops, based on the premise that somehow the wizard will supplement them with creature artifacts I suppose.

5) I use MOTW. Most academy players use MOTW. It is a wizard staple. But it was nerfed in 1.3 in Nival's ongoing assault on wizardry. Mark of the wizard is now limited to only one at a time. Strange to continue to nerf what was already the weakest of factions.

6) Early rare resource cost increases has made it too hard for the wizard to build his creature dwellings. As has been pointed out above.

It will be interesting to see what the next patch brings.

Edit: Oh, I agree that consume artifact is useless. However, a skill like artifact management will not help the wizard.
1) The wizard has trouble ever building artifacts to begin with.
2) Wasting a turn to take the artifact from one creature to another would never be a good choice.
3) Artifacts are designed with specific creatures in mind.

GOW

[Jolly Joker]

I cannot agree. I think, they play quite well.

[Alamar]

I think that a lot of things depends on the map. A resource rich map that doesn't have tons of $ plays to Academy's strengths.

FYI: I've played a few 6 sided hotseat games on heroic and Academy [with my play style!! .. YMMV] holds it's own fairly well. They did just as well as Sylvan & Dungeon ... the new resource costs hit these factions hard. I suspect that they would also do well against Inferno because in my early games I used Deleb and that unfairly tilted balance towards Inferno.

Only Necros & Haven seemed to be doing "too good" with my play style and the maps that I used ....

[Kilop]

I cannot agree. I think, they play quite well.

JJ, no, please, you cannot defend wizard... have you tried to play them on heroic ?? without good tier 1 and 2, they can t get ressources, and develop so slow...
just try a 1v1 against a comp in heroic, doable with other factions, but not with wizards...
and they are so weak when they NEED big maps with huges ressources to be effective, but then necropolis is so much better ( or haven if there is a lot of gold ) .
No way even with MOTW you can defeat neutrals quickly enought. ( in hard or heroic anyway ... )

One of the most powerful spells in the wizard's secondary magic school, light magic, does not affect 2 of the wizard's troops. I am of course speaking of resurrection and the inability of golems and gargoyles to be resurrected.

yeah but golems can be repared, that makes up for it. be honest

Mark of the wizard is now limited to only one at a time

yeah, but it now benefit from wizardry ... but even that skill is hard to take when you need 2 magic schools, logistic ( march of the golems ), leadership ( artifical glory ) and if you have razzak ( one of the best mid late game ) it is all ...
hard town , hard town !!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

One of the most powerful spells in the wizard's secondary magic school, light magic, does not affect 2 of the wizard's troops. I am of course speaking of resurrection and the inability of golems and gargoyles to be resurrected.

yeah but golems can be repared, that makes up for it. be honest

Gargoyles can't be repaired at all and master gremlins only get one repair now. So unless you time your repair just right, especially against an army with a hero there will be no repair. So I do not think that the MG's one repair makes up for it.

Mark of the wizard is now limited to only one at a time

yeah, but it now benefit from wizardry ... but even that skill is hard to take when you need 2 magic schools, logistic ( march of the golems ), leadership ( artifical glory ) and if you have razzak ( one of the best mid late game ) it is all ...
hard town , hard town !!

Yeah, making MOTW work with sorcery was good, but limiting MOTW to one at a time was not.

When not playing the golemmancer, I usually take:

artificer (fixed)
sorcery (more spells in combat)
enlightenment (need whatever spellpower I can muster)
summoning magic
light magic
attack (for archery)

GOW

[Sir_Toejam]

No way even with MOTW you can defeat neutrals quickly enought. ( in hard or heroic anyway ... )

actually, i made a mod to change the resource bottlenecks in the lower levels (like the sulfur for mages), made djinn have 20% more hp. and 10% cheaper to buy.

...and STILL had some problems with them on hard on the three maps i tested them with, along the same lines you suggested. they are just horrible against shooters and fast movers early on, especially. the Djinn mod i made, along with adding a bit of defense and speed to them via miniartifacts make ranged units easier to deal with in the third week or so, but of course that pushes back development of upgrades and other city structures a bit, slowing them down even more.

I find them usefull if you can get enough time and resources (before the first big army arrives) to get a decent stack of djinn, and upgrade your archmages (OUCH, but that's expensive!). typically, i don't get enough resources (gold mostly) to build the giants and titans until well into the second month, on most maps. That means they usually don't come into play when facing that first big rush, either from human or AI opponents. I also find them especially bad when attacked by hero's with good attack/defense stats.

I made a post about the resource changes I'm testing over in the modmaking guild, should anybody wish to provide further input.

[Arqane]

Yeah, I do find it interesting that everyone thinks Summoning is the Wizard's main arsenal. Every faction has 2 main schools, though often people will tend towards one (Haven to Light, for example). Still, nothing wrong with taking Light Magic.

I also don't want this to degenerate into just another battle of me and JJ vs. GOW, Kilop and all the others on whether Academy as a whole is good or not... been there, done that.

However, I think most everybody can agree that Consume Artifact is mostly useless. Even though other factions have useless skills as well, changing this to balance Academy out a bit would be the only thing I agree with personally.

I don't agree that artifacts are end-game, big map only (unless you're saying L3 artifacts for every troop). Still, for how hard it is to make artifacts, with the resources, the need to visit an Academy town, and simply the time itself, a skill that relies on it is not a good idea. Eating one of your artifacts makes you lose resources, most likely revisit your town, and start the whole process over. Just give me one mana potion that I need to visit town to replenish instead!

I liked my idea from above as a replacement. The golem one was interesting, but I still think overpowered. Let's be productive instead of arguing, and try and come up with other good ideas for a replacement.

[Kilop]

So I do not think that the MG's one repair makes up for it.

yes you are righ for the last fight... but not for the rest of the game .. being able to not loose one golem for the first 15 levels is just awesome!

And since you bring Razzsak one the table ... ( no it s not me... )
Yes I think he is powerful , problem is , that he is alone to be powerfull enough, and even him can t just compare to another good might hero !!!

artificer (fixed)
sorcery (more spells in combat)
enlightenment (need whatever spellpower I can muster)
summoning magic
light magic
attack (for archery)

need to replace atack by def ( razzak has it already, and your grem can use indeed the +2 life from vitality ) then you NEED logistic ( +2 init, speed is HUGE for golems and teleporting assault too ) then i like leadership ( gives good morale to golems, but not bad... gg banshee howl ) and of course, light ( haste, righteous might, etc ... ) sp that let s you either with enlightment or luck ( 30% more dom for golems ).
That way, yes these golems are powerfull, until they die , and the rest of your army is dead, or you loose them ina battle and no way to get them back quick enough... that is why I proposed a skill that resurect them...

typically, i don't get enough resources (gold mostly) to build the giants and titans until well into the second month,

ok, so try that, just build grem, golems, genies ( + 500 gold/day) and then as soon s ou can, titans... don t buy genies btw, too expensive!try to survive enoubht to give you the rest of your army and makes artefacts... take razzak, other heroes are useless without atack/def ( what is a difference between a light wizard and a light knight, some turn duration spells... great ) and don t loose a golem. That way in the final fight, you will have a strong shooter ( and present for counter late rush ... ) and a great melee/tank ( 13 init 30/30 golems with morale and luck ) ... that is if you manage to get to that point... but even if you win the fight, if you are not 1v1, you are dead, since you are wayy to dependant on the golems ...
Otherwise, I am cleless how to be effective with academy.

And concerning mods, I don t know, I wait for the first expansion and the numerous balances changes that will then occur to see what are the devs intentions about academy ( if any) , then adjust if needed.

[Arqane]

I can't remember the last time I ran out of golems with Razzak. True, I haven't had a chance for multiplayer lately, but I have no problem on Heroic maps.

I used to use Nathir as another hero, but he's quite a bit tougher to use in the beginning with fireball being more expensive. I'll try out some of the other heroes, though, and see how well I fare.

[Sir_Toejam]

well, the problem with not being able to build level 7's early enough, is that most of the rest of the academy units simply aren't tough enough to last long.

example:

I just got wiped early in the second month on a map by sylvan, who had enough resources to build green dragons.

turn 2 in combat, green dragon stack (5) enters town and wipes out one whole stack of mages and golems (15 mages, 20 golems).

right there, my attack power for the next turn is reduced quite significantly, though i still had another stack of mages and golems on the other side.

moreover, preserve heros get good defense ratings, so it's hard to take down their ranged units with the rather poor ranged abilities left (gremlins do low damage and have low attack stats, and i just lost half my mages).

it was pretty much a slaughter after that. Now if i had razaak, the golems would have survived the dragon attack, but the mages would still be toast.

on another map, where I managed to build a few titans before the preserve "siege", I managed to just barely pull it off, but only because i also had resurrection at that point.

this is defending inside a castle, btw!

I'm thinking that making the archmage building a bit easier to construct would help out early on, so i probably will adjust the gold requirement down a bit for that building, and maybe for the cloud building as well (it's still the most expensive (gold wise) level 7 building.

but, this is really better discussed in the modcrafting forum.

[Kilop]

the problem with big maps on heroic with academy is if you dont get quickly a second town to supply your golems... because even if yo can beat the 100 paladins, the second hero right behind with 160 vampires is impossible...

Ok, so at leat we all do agrea that consume artefact is useless... And that probably mages building is imbalanced ( impossible to get in certain maps on heroic, since sulfur deposit is heavily guarded )... and that wizard need more mana at the very begining...

Wait would it be possible to change the ratial to allow wizards cast more often in fights ( a bit like johra or wizardry ... or a free Motw at the begining f the fight ... )

[Shauku]

I know that you are mostly talking about heroic difficulty, but I just wanted to add that on Hard Academy has no problems.

Actually Academy has a very early change of getting crature dwellings from 1-7 AND Castle, thanks to even resource demands.

Try doing the same with Sylvan

[Kilop]

yeah... but I find this game is nuch more interreting in heroic dificulty...
For sylvan thought, just din t buy war dancers ...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I know that you are mostly talking about heroic difficulty, but I just wanted to add that on Hard Academy has no problems.

Actually Academy has a very early change of getting crature dwellings from 1-7 AND Castle, thanks to even resource demands.

Try doing the same with Sylvan

Define early please. The academy needs lots of gold and lots of ore besides an early rare resource bottleneck that hampers getting the level 6. Everyone should have their dwellings before the magicless/racial specialless wizard gets his.

The academy is going to be skiping dwellings to get the giants, who are less useful than green dragons.

The academy also has weaker lower level creatures and will have a tougher time with the mines.

GOW

[Shauku]

Earlier than others is early Actually Academy got all creatures from 1-7 and Castle a week before Inferno and Sylvan got their Castle and level 7 building (on Hard) Which was a great advantage.

However it seems that Academy cannot afford to skip Light Magic, for their creatures are lightyears behind in stats otherwise. Where it comes to in the endfight Academy gets a serious hit from not having a decent level 5 creature, something that is supposed to be sturdy (for heavens sake Liches are SHOOTERS and are much more durable)