Irresistible magic

[DaemianLucifer]

It might actually be interesting to see what the results of small poll that asks Dungeon players whether they prefer to have IM as it is or lose completely the ability to pierce enemy immunity but also not being able to harm their own Black Dragons, i.e. you eliminate IM completely, leaving only the ED bonus. What do you think people would say? Because for me IM is not even necessary - BDs are the single most affected unit by IM and its affected in a purely negative sense, even though a racial is supposed to give a distinct advantage, not disadvantages. How many factions except Dungeon have immune creatures or highly resistant creatures as to justify IM? Hmmm?

Actually I foud IM best against unicorns and hero resistance,because even if your attacks are resisted and the creature receives miniscule damage,it still suffers the full effects of master of storms/ice/fire.

Listen. Why do you need "arguments" at all? You can mod the things whichever way you like.
So: you don't like IM the way it is? Go ahead and change it. But don't expect you can prove that it must be done the way you want it.
Just do it.
There's no need to try and make everyone agree. Simply go ahead with something.
There are many issues you can do this way or another way. The disigners took this way, I'm fine with it, some are not, so change it. There is no need to bash each other's head to prove that his or her god is the only one.
So make a mod or make a wish list for Nival.
But don't bother trying to prove that it must be done the way you want it and everything else is crap, please.

Actually,IM(and other racials)are much,much more complicated to mod than,lets say cost of creatures,cost of spells,etc.I doubt we will see a mod doing some changes to IM soon.

And where is the problem with that?

Like Naskoni said:Its your racial and should be benefiacial to you,not limiting you.Necromancy,gating,counterstrike,artificier and avenger dont limit you in any way.You can either use them(if you have the money,or if you attack certain creatures,or with certain creatures)or not use them.Your choice.With IM,you must use them whenever you cast DD spell,wheter you want to or not.

[/quote]
1. Once again, warlock is master of destructive magic. He is not master of light magic or anything else.

2. Too much power to control?

It makes sense lore wise and gameplay wise so where is the problem?[/quote]

*sigh*!Let me repeat it then,sice you are to lasy to read me(or maybe you like to pretend like you missed my arguments because you have no valid points to counter them):IM is the only racial that works only if you have DD,thus it is the only racial that forces you to use two skill slots instead of one.Also,it is limited to just MR creatures,of which you have the one with the greatest MR,thus you suffer the most from your racial,which should be beneficial to you.

[Adicto]

Too much power to control - where? That you will be allowed to rain Meteor Shower on your BDs without hurting them but all the enemies around the stack? Hell, isn't that what their immunity is there for? You cannot haste them, boost them, raise them but you can harm them? What good is their ability to you then? What do you pay such resources for to get them?

The Balck Dragon´s immunity is there for resist 20 dark & destructive spells, like Frenzy, Puppet Master, Blindness, Confusion, Decay, Suffering, Weakness, Implosion, Meteor Shower, Fireball, Ice Bolt, Thunder, etc, casted by a non-warlock enemy.

[Naskoni]

Too much power to control - where? That you will be allowed to rain Meteor Shower on your BDs without hurting them but all the enemies around the stack? Hell, isn't that what their immunity is there for? You cannot haste them, boost them, raise them but you can harm them? What good is their ability to you then? What do you pay such resources for to get them?

The Balck Dragon´s immunity is there for resist 20 dark & destructive spells, like Frenzy, Puppet Master, Blindness, Confusion, Decay, Suffering, Weakness, Implosion, Meteor Shower, Fireball, Ice Bolt, Thunder, etc, casted by a non-warlock enemy.

Now list all the positive spells you cannot cast on BDs too, please, as it goes both ways After you do that apply the fact that the better you get in IM the more you negate your own BDs' ability when casting the only school of magic you specialize in.

After you do that go back and answer the rest of my questions.

[Jolly Joker]

*sigh*!Let me repeat it then,sice you are to lasy to read me(or maybe you like to pretend like you missed my arguments because you have no valid points to counter them):IM is the only racial that works only if you have DD,thus it is the only racial that forces you to use two skill slots instead of one.Also,it is limited to just MR creatures,of which you have the one with the greatest MR,thus you suffer the most from your racial,which should be beneficial to you.

*Bigger sigh*
Even if it was true that it was the only skill that... it wouldn't be an argument against it. However, it's wrong in two aspects.
a) you don't need Destructive Magic, but of course it helps. But you don't need it
b) The Haven racial (not that one depending on the building, but the skill) will have an effect only if a unit retaliates. So something negative (being attacked hand-to-hand) has to happen for the special to have any effect at all. You could argue that you need even TWO more skills for this skill to be really effective: Defense, to help get that retaliation strike in; and Offense to make it even more effective. Furthermore it's a special the opponent has a lot more control over than the owner because it's the opponent who determines how many retaliations you will get.

[ThunderTitan]

Well, IM applies to damage spells only, so obviously only such. If it applied to other types you would have been able to boost your BDs already

See, that's the thing, dmg spells get reduced dmg, while the rest might get a miss change. Then again that's how it worked in H4, so....

b) The Haven racial (not that one depending on the building, but the skill) will have an effect only if a unit retaliates. So something negative (being attacked hand-to-hand) has to happen for the special to have any effect at all.

Something that would have happened anyway, unless you think that the other guy is gonna come at you with only ranged and caster units, which would put him at a big disadvantage when he rans out of mana/shots or the enemy gets close.

Furthermore it's a special the opponent has a lot more control over than the owner because it's the opponent who determines how many retaliations you will get.

See above.

[DaemianLucifer]

a) you don't need Destructive Magic, but of course it helps. But you don't need it

Of course,you dont.If you want to cast just a 70ish damage eldritch arrown,and maybe 150ish ice bolt.Which both wont even scratch the resistant stack.

b) The Haven racial (not that one depending on the building, but the skill) will have an effect only if a unit retaliates. So something negative (being attacked hand-to-hand) has to happen for the special to have any effect at all. You could argue that you need even TWO more skills for this skill to be really effective: Defense, to help get that retaliation strike in; and Offense to make it even more effective. Furthermore it's a special the opponent has a lot more control over than the owner because it's the opponent who determines how many retaliations you will get.

Ah,finally a good argument.But counterstrike works the same no matter what skills you take.It will always be +5%/10%/20%/25%,no matter what skills you take.IM,on the other hand needs destruction magic to be at its full effect.Without master of something,your spells(ice,fire and lightning ones),will do just a fraction of damage.With master of something,theyll have their full effect,even if the creature resists the spell completelly.Personally,IMs full effect is shown just then,and not when you do magic damage to blackies.Also,without destruction magic,IM works only on 4 of your spells,while whith it,it works with 10 of them(still not with all your spells,but with 10 of them at least).Counterstrike works on all of your creatures,no matter what skills you have.

Oh,and again its just JJ that made a valid counterpoint.Im really freaking out now!!

[ThunderTitan]

Oh,and again its just JJ that made a valid counterpoint.Im really freaking out now!!

You're kiding, right?! Might as well say that the enemy can control Avenger because he decides what creatures are in his armies. CS makes the enemies melee units less usefull and that's about it.

[Meandor]

*sigh*!Let me repeat it then,sice you are to lasy to read me(or maybe you like to pretend like you missed my arguments because you have no valid points to counter them):IM is the only racial that works only if you have DD,thus it is the only racial that forces you to use two skill slots instead of one.Also,it is limited to just MR creatures,of which you have the one with the greatest MR,thus you suffer the most from your racial,which should be beneficial to you.

You argument isn`t valid. I remember you wrote several times that StarCraft is great game. Some players were whining "omg i can`t repair my buidlings with zergs like terrans can and regeneration takes forever, it`s soooo unfair". Your argument is at the same level.
Warlock damaging his own units is concept of the race. It works fine lore wise and gameplay wise so there is no point in changing it. IF dungeon was weakest or close to it then your argument would be valid, but now? Dungeon is strong, warlock`s racial isn`t strong. What will happen if his racial skill will become strong? Yes, Dungeon will become even stronger. Basicaly all your posts here say "lets make dungeon overpowered!".

[ThunderTitan]

You argument isn`t valid. I remember you wrote several times that StarCraft is great game. Some players were whining "omg i can`t repair my buidlings with zergs like terrans can and regeneration takes forever, it`s soooo unfair". Your argument is at the same level.

But regeneration exists and doesn't cost anything. Is IM really that powerfull, or the Warlocks even, to warrant that? Frankly only Nature's Luck needs to have some drawback.

[DaemianLucifer]

You argument isn`t valid. I remember you wrote several times that StarCraft is great game. Some players were whining "omg i can`t repair my buidlings with zergs like terrans can and regeneration takes forever, it`s soooo unfair". Your argument is at the same level.
Warlock damaging his own units is concept of the race. It works fine lore wise and gameplay wise so there is no point in changing it. IF dungeon was weakest or close to it then your argument would be valid, but now? Dungeon is strong, warlock`s racial isn`t strong. What will happen if his racial skill will become strong? Yes, Dungeon will become even stronger. Basicaly all your posts here say "lets make dungeon overpowered!".

Umm...Starcraft:Three races,every race is completelly unique,with almost no touching points,except the crystals and the gas.HV:6 races,with lots of touching points,5 of the racials are beneficial and just one has a negative side,5 are completelly unconnected with the skill choice,just one is.

[Jolly Joker]

But sadly no valid counterpoint from you.
Let's compare them
IM does nothing in itself, it just lowers resistence, so this is completely worthless without the owner casting a Destructive spell.
Counterstrike does nothing in itself as well; you need an opponent to attack your creatures hand-to-hand AND leave something to retaliate.
So with IM you can decide for yourself how much use you want to make of it (you can cast the spells when YOU want).
Counterstrike on the other hand leaves things completely in the hand of the opposition: if they decide to hit always on as few stacks as possible, you'll get less from your racial than otherwise NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
Now, on what you need. Yes Destructive Magic helps. A lot. It will greatly add to the damage. Therefore it's a useful addition to have.
Counterstrike on the other hand deals 10%/20% and 25% more damage in retaliations. Since this makes it necessary to be attacked prior to that
10%/20%/30% Defense will lessen the damage dealt in that attack by that percentage; this transfers into more creatures retaliating on average which means your Counterstrike damage will be bigger; Offense MIGHT help (adding damage) or might not depending on how the mechanics work here, but Defense helps by definition; Toughness helps as well, btw.

Second point: look at the racials:
Necro: skill working on itself, building gives a second effect that in itself costs nothing.
Haven: Skill works dependant on opponent; can be supported by other skill; second racial effect needs building(s) and money to work.
Dungeon: Skill works only in connection with spells; is supported by another skill; second racial effect works needs building(s), but is supported by skill.
Inferno: needs skill only. One racial effect. Can be supported by skills/abilities (other than those of the racial).No second racial
Academy: skill works only in combination with building and resources. No second racial
Avenger: skill works only in combination with building(s). No second racial.

Taking a look at it EVERY racial skill is unique.

[mr.hackcrag]

IM is the only racial that works only if you have DD,thus it is the only racial that forces you to use two skill slots instead of one.

I'm not saying this to argue, but only because I don't play H5 enough to know. Is it really wise to not choose destructive magic skill if you are a warlock? It seems to me that a warlock would choose destructive magic all the time and thus matter less if it requires that extra skill to use the racial ability.

I also think it makes sense lorewise and gameplay wise for the same reasons that I agreed when you said that the new way raise dead spell makes sense. Although there were better solutions for that spell too.

But like I mentioned earlier, I think the real problem is with the spell and that it either needs to be changed or taken out of the game.

[DaemianLucifer]

Taking a look at it EVERY racial skill is unique.

Except for dungeon racial beeing the only one that does damage to you as well as the enemy.

Oh,and isnt the sacrifiacial pit counted as infernos secondary racial?

As for counterstrike beeing controlled completelly by your enemy,thats not correct.It depends on both your armies and both your tactics.No side is in complete control of it.

Ok,if you dont see it from that side,look it from this side then:Necromancy works always,unless you fight a second necro opponent.Avenger works no matter who your enemy is.So does counterstrike,gating and artificier.IM,however,works only against unicorns,gargoyls,golems,emeralds,blacks and elementals.That is weak in itself.Its secondary,though,does work against all creatures,but it is weak as well,and usually not used(honestly,of all those bonus damages,only hellfire does something meaningfull),since it requires you to attack targets that arent your priority.

If we grade the racials(already was done somewhere),gating and necromancy would come on top,avenger would be just behibd them(because it requires a building),with artificier and counterstrike following close behind(artificier needs lots of resources and counterstrike isnt usefull on its own,but its secondary is very usefull),and IM on the bottom.But hey,dont trust me.Ill open a thread,and lets see what others think about them.It seems like the most fair solution to me.

[ThunderTitan]

IM does nothing in itself, it just lowers resistence, so this is completely worthless without the owner casting a Destructive spell.

Or the enemy having a resistant creature, and even then it only does as much dmg as normal. Maybe if it reduced the resistance below 0%, like in Diablo...

Counterstrike does nothing in itself as well; you need an opponent to attack your creatures hand-to-hand AND leave something to retaliate.

So you actualy need to fight someone... how unconvenient.

CS does extra dmg that wouldn't be there even if the creature had no special abilities, IM doesn't.

[Jolly Joker]

Some things:
1) It's not the racial that will damage you. It's the casting of certain spells in certain situations.
2) IM works not only against creatures (where you forgot the phoenix), it works against heroes and their artifacts and abilities as well. A good Wizard may equip their creatures with Resistance artifacts that will really make themselves felt (btw, I'm a bit annoyed about the fact that these things are constantly downplayed in a most one-sided way).
The secons racial gives bonus damage you have actually control over. It's bonus damage that is worth more than expert offense, if you can utilize it, so I don't see what's week.
3) TT, no, no, not right. You actually need someone who attacks you - which is something that you want to happen as seldom as possible. So if your Archers and Battlediving griffins are doing all the neutral killing your special won't be used at all.

[Adicto]

Too much power to control - where? That you will be allowed to rain Meteor Shower on your BDs without hurting them but all the enemies around the stack? Hell, isn't that what their immunity is there for? You cannot haste them, boost them, raise them but you can harm them? What good is their ability to you then? What do you pay such resources for to get them?

The Balck Dragon´s immunity is there for resist 20 dark & destructive spells, like Frenzy, Puppet Master, Blindness, Confusion, Decay, Suffering, Weakness, Implosion, Meteor Shower, Fireball, Ice Bolt, Thunder, etc, casted by a non-warlock enemy.

Now list all the positive spells you cannot cast on BDs too, please, as it goes both ways

I can list all the possitive spells if you wish, but first:
1- Chances of getting Light Magic for a warlock: 2%
2- Number of light magic spells that you can get at the same time in your dungeon mage guild: 3
Raise Dead, Phantom Forces and Arcane Armor are the only possitive spells really accessible for a warlock.

It is like if I complain about the Undead ability because my vampires cannot get positive moral, only immunity against some dark&summoning spells, what makes them vulnerable and not an overpowered force that will make me win every game without any effort because I can´t accept that I´m a loser.

[DaemianLucifer]

I can list all the possitive spells if you wish, but first:
1- Chances of getting Light Magic for a warlock: 2%
2- Number of light magic spells that you can get at the same time in your dungeon mage guild: 3
Raise Dead, Phantom Forces and Arcane Armor are the only possitive spells really accessible for a warlock.

Interesting.When it comes to BDs immunity towards buffs,then you consider all the numbers,but when it comes to dracogedon combo(in the hypotetical situation),those numbers somehow magically disappear.

It is like if I complain about the Undead ability because my vampires cannot get positive moral, only immunity against some dark&summoning spells, what makes them vulnerable and not an overpowered force that will make me win every game without any effort because I can´t accept that I´m a loser.

Vamps arent overpowered at all(which is very interesting considering they were the ultimate creature in all of the previous sequels).But you forget one big difference here:You cannot curse your vamps,but you can damage your blackies.

[Adicto]

1- The are two kind of numbers in HoMM: Relevant ones, and Irrelevan ones.
The number of possitive spells are irrelevant in this case, because you almost never will see a warlock casting possitive spells, only destructive.

2- You can curse vampires with Weakness, Slow, Vulnerability and Suffering.

If we grade the racials(already was done somewhere),gating and necromancy would come on top,avenger would be just behibd them(because it requires a building),with artificier and counterstrike following close behind(artificier needs lots of resources and counterstrike isnt usefull on its own,but its secondary is very usefull),and IM on the bottom.But hey,dont trust me.Ill open a thread,and lets see what others think about them.It seems like the most fair solution to me.

Man, do you know why Necromancy is so poweful? because most of necro creatures are pure s**t!! Skeleton archers, zombies, wights and bone/spectral dragons are amazingly weak creatures. Gimme better creatures and I will give you the fu**ing necromancy in exchange...

Do you know that song who says?:
I´m whiiiiiiiinning in the raaaain
just whiiiiiinnin in the raaaain
Dungeoooon is ok
but I´m cryyyyying agaaaain

[DaemianLucifer]

1- The are two kind of numbers in HoMM: Relevant ones, and Irrelevan ones.
The number of possitive spells are irrelevant in this case, because you almost never will see a warlock casting possitive spells, only destructive.

Really?I wonder then why I casted haste much.Must be why I lost so many times.Oh...Wait...I never lost.Not even close.You see,it depends only on your preference(and partially random generator)what skills youll have and what spells youll cast.Theres no rule.Oh,and as for irrelevant numbers:Gold and resources are far from irrelevant.

2- You can curse vampires with Weakness, Slow, Vulnerability and Suffering.

No,your opponent can.You cant.

Man, do you know why Necromancy is so poweful? because most of necro creatures are pure s**t!! Skeleton archers, zombies, wights and bone/spectral dragons are amazingly weak creatures. Gimme better creatures and I will give you the fu**ing necromancy in exchange...

Really?Then how come necro dominates other races.Especially on big maps?All other factions have stronger creatures,and poor necro has just has just his weak necromancy.

[Adicto]

No,your opponent can.You cant

So do you mean your own vampires? Of course then, those are mass effect spells not area efect spells, but anyway you should try to cast mass vulnerability over your own creatures, hehe.

Really?I wonder then why I casted haste much.Must be why I lost so many times.Oh...Wait...I never lost.Not even close.You see,it depends only on your preference(and partially random generator)what skills youll have and what spells youll cast

Yeah if you play against yourself you always win hehe. Seriously, your fu**ing preferences doesn´t matter when you only have 2% of getting ligth magic and only 3 (maybe none!!) low level spells in your guild. A warlock hero with light magic is not only surrealist, is stupid too. Your preferences must be based on your tangible options, not on your wet dreams, man.

Really?Then how come necro dominates other races.Especially on big maps?

Because we the necromancers are the most intelligent, amazing, wonderful, great, and supernaturaly attractive players?