An interesting flashback

[Jolly Joker]

Here's an excerpt of a post of mine (just as an example); please take note of the posting date:
"Posted Mon October 24 2005 01:52
Speaking of resources: I still strongly suggest to cut the resource demand for the Mage Guild. There is strong disbalance in terms of what you get and what you have to invest for the Mage Guild when you have those kinds of creature dwelling demands.
Suggestion: Halve the Resource costs for the 4 precious resources for Mage Guilds."
I can't give you the URL because this wasn't posted in an open forum.
Now, this is no proof that they do what people want (look at the time between that and now). What it shows is, that resource demand changes WERE called for. What I've seen is a ton of things like this creature is too strong and that is too weak, but I never saw a really serious resource balancing discussion except the two or three I initiated personally. The reason for that may be that people were too lazy to simply gather all the info and check things.

Anyway. If you read Naskoni's post you will have seen his comment about "not enought movement points" which is ridiculous beyond imagination. First this is no "bug", because it doesn't actually concern the game; in fact it is a LOCAL writing mistake in all ENGLISH language versions, but it's certainly no bug. Yes, it's easy to correct; no, not the coders are doing that. If you care to look into the bug list it actually dissolves into a list of cosmetic corrections that don't have any effect onto the game itself. I could go on and make some points about the AI: that a "non-cheating" AI cannot have a chance in a game like heroes (after the initial differences in starting values have been overcome in higher dif levels) because otherwise the player wouldn't deserve to be called intelligent. And so on and so forth.
Instead I could make a list of things that I personally could imagine better or different. I did that, but I usually don't make a fuss about it. Many of them are purely subjective. I don't think I should go ahead and try and bring Nival to build MY game; I would point out only things I'd find really broken. I did make a fuss about the manual; a good manual, nice and printed (not a pdf), is still a vital incentive to actually BUY a game. The manual the game comes with is actually an incentive NOT to.
And as a last point, supposedly I'm a lone defender against an overwhelming majority. Not true. A lot of people say actually, this or that might be better, but the game is good and gets even better. Editor is there now, let's wait for more maps. If you have a look at the posters you'll not find more than a handful who actually will always post something negative about the game because they are probably not only done with it, but actually disappointed because they had other hopes for the game - understandable, but sh1t happens. And against them I'm defending the basic game design and Nival's and Ubi's road to delivering the ultimate Heroes game UNTIL NOW. I do that, because the thing went down the drain already once with the Heroes 3 Addon and the Forge fiasco when too many people thought they knew a lot better than the developers who had given them fantastic games so far - with the game dying a slow death, since it wasn't the same after that. Basically it's the Forge all over again with some - there ARE rabid Nival haters around, for example WinterIsComing (who isn't anymore) -, so called and allegedly "fans" who go wild to see their personal game vision come true, disguising this with fake reasons and whatnot, always bringing up the same points over and over again ad infinitum.
Basically, Nival doesn't need to jump whenever self-appointed fans come up with something they don't like. They don't need to answer every request or put down their reasons for doing things the way they do. They don't have an obligation to "listen" to those self-appointed fans. They already did that before they actually designed the game.
Is it so hard to believe that they are actually doing their best? (yeah, I know: some may say now, if THAT'S their best, hell...) No amount of complaing can actually change the fact that Heroes V is the best in the row (but cannot compete with the fond memories people link with any of a prior installment). At this point the biggest problem of the game is a technical one: the "window" of gaming machines on which the game has a stellar performance may be a bit too small AT THIS POINT; it could be broader. This seems to be a compatibility issue more than a pure performance issue. I run the game on a laptop and have never even had even ONE crash or lag effect.
But back to Nival. For them there's a lot on the line. Think about it. A good performance with Heroes V, meaning good sales, will very probably secure them H VI. Note, that H V, from Ubi's position was NOT a major game project (!; maybe hard to believe for some, but the truth; that's why the cutscenes leave something to desire, for example; a question of available money; for Ubi this game is a try, nothing more). This may well change for VI, depending on sales of V and addons. IF VI would be a major title it would have another budget, giving more options - and of course an opportunity for Nival.
So you better believe it - everyone there is working on things. Everyone makes mistakes as well. There's always some sh1t happening. But strangely, it's always the "fans" that are most intent on bashing, thrashing, destroying, and condemning, IF and WHEN sh1t is happening - and not only then. Strange indeed.

[Humakt]

Everyone makes mistakes as well. There's always some sh1t happening. But strangely, it's always the "fans" that are most intent on bashing, thrashing, destroying, and condemning, IF and WHEN sh1t is happening - and not only then. Strange indeed.

Not really. Only "fans", as you say, and the fans (in positive tone I guess) are the only people really interested in these series; it's future, present and past. To the others this is just a game which they may have liked or not and they move on the other games once they've finished with this.

[DaemianLucifer]

If you care to look into the bug list it actually dissolves into a list of cosmetic corrections that don't have any effect onto the game itself.

The tent/border bugs in the campaigns are not cosmetic details.

I could go on and make some points about the AI: that a "non-cheating" AI cannot have a chance in a game like heroes (after the initial differences in starting values have been overcome in higher dif levels) because otherwise the player wouldn't deserve to be called intelligent.

And this has been brought lots of times before:Galciv.

And about your all personal game,and andfull of fans,the thigs I scream the most are the things very big number of people want:Caravans(at least they heard that),flagable windmills,linear casters and simretal(although the last one is probably 50-50 among those pro and against).Oh,and nagas,of course .The rest I usually put in a very nice thought and ask for others to give their ideas(good and bad).

As for nival doing their best,I doubt that a lot.And heres why:There are snow structures and trees and what not,yet no snow.That means they had to cut their work short because they were pressured by ubisoft.And there are other examples like this that mean just that:They rushed,and screwed up.

[Jolly Joker]

You should have more trust, DL. The game is not yet complete. Every picture of the addon shows a lot of snow around, for example.

[DaemianLucifer]

You should have more trust, DL. The game is not yet complete. Every picture of the addon shows a lot of snow around, for example.

Yes,I know that.And thats why I am angry(and why many others are angry).If the game isnt finished,why is it being sold as a finished product then?

[asandir]

to make a ze money!!!

[Jolly Joker]

Oh, and for the AI. GalCiv. You cannot compare them. With a FIXED tech tree like they have everyone can program a fixed "way" through the building tree to create "personalities"; for example, you want an aggressive expansionist? Let him concentrate on building warfare things and build attack ships early on with an aggressive demand policy. And poof. Wow! Great AI! Now reduce the points needed to actually do things with each difficulty level and voila.
Now to do this for heroes this would envolve:
Percentage reduction in building costs and creatures costs, for example:
Hard level -20%; Heroic Level -50%
Added creature growth, for example: Hard Level: +20%, Heroic, +50%
Fixed hero development trees for each kind of hero.
You can call this difficulty level adjustment. But the result is the same: the AI is playing a different game.

[DaemianLucifer]

to make a ze money!!!

Yet some still say ubi is a decent company

[Jolly Joker]

You should have more trust, DL. The game is not yet complete. Every picture of the addon shows a lot of snow around, for example.

Yes,I know that.And thats why I am angry(and why many others are angry).If the game isnt finished,why is it being sold as a finished product then?

The game IS finished. That doesn't mean you could put more things into it. Swamp terrain. Broken terrain. Bocage terrain. Night turns. Whatever the hell. Is a car finished when you buy the most basic version for 15000 bucks? Yes, sure. That doesn't mean you can put things into it for another 15000, right?

[DaemianLucifer]

Oh, and for the AI. GalCiv. You cannot compare them. With a FIXED tech tree like they have everyone can program a fixed "way" through the building tree to create "personalities"; for example, you want an aggressive expansionist? Let him concentrate on building warfare things and build attack ships early on with an aggressive demand policy. And poof. Wow! Great AI! Now reduce the points needed to actually do things with each difficulty level and voila.
Now to do this for heroes this would envolve:
Percentage reduction in building costs and creatures costs, for example:
Hard level -20%; Heroic Level -50%
Added creature growth, for example: Hard Level: +20%, Heroic, +50%
Fixed hero development trees for each kind of hero.
You can call this difficulty level adjustment. But the result is the same: the AI is playing a different game.

Say what?! The reduction/increase in the cost of the creatures wouldnt be needed if the AI was decent.And galciv is not any more fixed than heroes.So what if the tech tree is fixed?Planets arent.Annomalies arent.Races arent.And you have to count in diplomacy(in which galciv is quite good at),which just adds more complexity over heroes,not less.Then there are minor races and pirates as well.

You should have more trust, DL. The game is not yet complete. Every picture of the addon shows a lot of snow around, for example.

Yes,I know that.And thats why I am angry(and why many others are angry).If the game isnt finished,why is it being sold as a finished product then?

The game IS finished. That doesn't mean you could put more things into it. Swamp terrain. Broken terrain. Bocage terrain. Night turns. Whatever the hell. Is a car finished when you buy the most basic version for 15000 bucks? Yes, sure. That doesn't mean you can put things into it for another 15000, right?

Sure,but that car wont just stop for no reason in the middle of the drive.And even if they do that once,when you get your engine fixed(asuming that was the problem),you wont have your brakes broken.

[Mytical]

So instead of those of us who like the series and want to see a good series continue saying what we don't like..we should just hush and pony up our money. You are right about several things JJ.

Neither Nival or Ubi HAVE to listen to the fans...they dont have to impliment any changes or listen to our problems. Heck they could just leave it like it is, they already have their money. Maybe we all should just be quiet and just praise everything...hey then why would they even consider changing anything..everything is peaches and cream hey?

Now for the down side of all that. You dont like it and they dont change it, guess what..money stops flowing. The series dies, everybody looses. So while they dont have to do anything, dont mean they should not. And if we dont tell them what is wrong, why would they assume anything is wrong? I know if I put out a product that recieved only praise I would not 'fix' it. You dont fix what isn't broken. So JJ, while I do think there are good aspects of H5, and while I do think there is hope, I won't just hush and pony up my money. If they don't fix it, I personally wont be buying H6, and I doubt many hardcore fans will either. Without hardcore fans this series dies. It will be a shame...but we should just hush and take what we get...after all they will fix everything..even if there would be no way of them knowing what is wrong....

[Jolly Joker]

@DL: Jumping from one thing to another? I don't think you have any position there you can defend. Having snow terrain or not has nothing to do with the game running or not.
@Mytical: What fixes are you talking about? Specifically. And now think a bit. If no one request a change in resource demands (which isn't true, but which is stated here), how come they DID change it? Do you think they wake up one morning out of some lazy trance and one guy says, come on, let's roll some dice about some changes? It looks like they are running their own tests in terms of playing, balancing and so on. Bugs is something else, though. A wealth of different hardware configs plus people doing things that are so strange no one would think about it and produce bugs.

[DaemianLucifer]

@DL: Jumping from one thing to another? I don't think you have any position there you can defend. Having snow terrain or not has nothing to do with the game running or not.

True,but the fact that the snow was worked on,then suddenly canceled does show overal unfinishness of the game.And the bugs that are plentifull are the ones game crashes because of.I had a few,though they were just tedious.But some people have crashes all the time.And I cannot defend that?So,thousands of people are liars then,but you are the only one that speaks the truth? to your greatness!

[Mytical]

Where to begin....balancing issues (and not resource alone). Magic issues..and how weak and pathetic is has become...hmm lets see. Artifacts, need more and more variety, and not to find a dozen 'four leaf clovers'. More types of buildings, make the sea more enjoyable, geesh this is a long list..and I actually enjoy a lot of what they did with H5. Make it Might and Magic again...and by that in case you are wondering I mean have a 'might' hero and a 'magic' hero type for all towns. I think that would do for a start. Maybe not what you are asking for, but it is a start.

[Jolly Joker]

Mytical, did you read what I wrote to Academy? If so, did you play this way or did you go the, umm, standard way?
Actually I find it not easy to do what is necessary when you grasped it. Without offending anyone (I include myself here), it is not so clear-cut what has to be done for each faction to play them right.
I think, many people make the following mistake: they assume more or less automatically, things had to be this or that way, act accordingly, fail and cra for missing balance. That's the wrong method. Take Inferno. The heroes excel in attack and Knowledge. Lots of people complained about that, instead of accepting it MIGHT JUST have good reason and trying to figure out which. If you do that it won't take long until you find Hellfire and the fact that your racial ability allow gaining spell points and making use of them via additional damage power; LOTS of additional adamage power actually, that depend on your knowledge, not on your attack or defense.
The game is not so easy. BALANCE is not so easy. The game is different.
For Academy people assume the creatures should be better because the Heroes are so bad in might. Alternatively they assume creatures should be made cheaper so that they could be build easier. They do not assume that it may not be the best way to go for creatures, creatures and creatures; a more complex magic plus a way to make artifacts might do the trick as well.
That makes "balance" fixes a rather difficult thing to say the least.

[dragonn]

If the game isnt finished,why is it being sold as a finished product then?

And not just that...Now after the game was released Nival has no pressure on them, so they can work on patches. But they don't. As I said somewhere before those fixes wouldn't take too long. Oh wait, they're working on Hammers of Fate now...and the circle goes on I guess, another unfinished product because of the rush before work on another expansion and then maybe HVI etc.

One of the most enigmatic "changes" are those of unit portraits in patch 1.2 I think. Why did they change them in a way they did, I mean another unfinished project? If they have time for that stupidity, I suppose they have time to fix at least half of those "cosmetic" bugs...

Nival knew what awaits them when they took Heroes series continuation on their shoulders. They knew it will be hard to please the fans, but then again I think not many games have such a big support of players willing to make the game look better. Willing to help them. But they are not listening, they put those sugar-like posts on forums saying everything will be okay, laughing at players opinions, rarely answering for anything...

[DaemianLucifer]

Mytical, did you read what I wrote to Academy? If so, did you play this way or did you go the, umm, standard way?
Actually I find it not easy to do what is necessary when you grasped it. Without offending anyone (I include myself here), it is not so clear-cut what has to be done for each faction to play them right.
I think, many people make the following mistake: they assume more or less automatically, things had to be this or that way, act accordingly, fail and cra for missing balance. That's the wrong method. Take Inferno. The heroes excel in attack and Knowledge. Lots of people complained about that, instead of accepting it MIGHT JUST have good reason and trying to figure out which. If you do that it won't take long until you find Hellfire and the fact that your racial ability allow gaining spell points and making use of them via additional damage power; LOTS of additional adamage power actually, that depend on your knowledge, not on your attack or defense.
The game is not so easy. BALANCE is not so easy. The game is different.
For Academy people assume the creatures should be better because the Heroes are so bad in might. Alternatively they assume creatures should be made cheaper so that they could be build easier. They do not assume that it may not be the best way to go for creatures, creatures and creatures; a more complex magic plus a way to make artifacts might do the trick as well.
That makes "balance" fixes a rather difficult thing to say the least.

You did everything but explain where the hell youll get those artifacts from?They demand loads of resources to make even one,let alone 3 or 4.Even if you focus only on first 4 tiers,using those calculations of yours,I see no way to provide some 10 extra resources to boost at least two of those creatures.

Now,if knowledge had some impact on the spells,or if wizards had a bit more spellpower it would be different.

But you are trying to find balance where such thing is not possible.

Take HIII for example:Most people say conflux is insane.I say,however,that its just a bit more stronger,and as long as hero isnt an expert for conflux,it wont matter.But that doesnt mean that conflux is not overpowered,just that its not as insane as everyone is saying.It wont mean that if you take conflux,you automatically win.Same here:Taking academy doesnt automatically mean youll lose.But it will make you win just some 20-30% of the time when fighting against your equal with a different city(and that 30% is just because luck with guardians is such a big factor).That is not balance.

[okrane]

Where to begin....balancing issues (and not resource alone). Magic issues..and how weak and pathetic is has become...hmm lets see. Artifacts, need more and more variety, and not to find a dozen 'four leaf clovers'. More types of buildings, make the sea more enjoyable, geesh this is a long list..and I actually enjoy a lot of what they did with H5. Make it Might and Magic again...and by that in case you are wondering I mean have a 'might' hero and a 'magic' hero type for all towns. I think that would do for a start. Maybe not what you are asking for, but it is a start.

+1

@JJ
you have a very good point too.... as I stated in the academy thread...
The thing I loved about H4 was that the game was different with every faction... opposed to the classical H3 where the sheer number of creatures was all that mattered. And H5 has a little bit of that... maybe not so pronounced as in H4 but it's there... and I agree it is hard to balance.
But I believe that the fans here are aware of that...

[dragonn]

Take HIII for example:Most people say conflux is insane.I say,however,that its just a bit more stronger,and as long as hero isnt an expert for conflux,it wont matter.But that doesnt mean that conflux is not overpowered,just that its not as insane as everyone is saying.It wont mean that if you take conflux,you automatically win.

That's something new I didn't ever think of Conflux as being overpowerd. I like this town very much but it has very expensive structures and units, very weak tier 1 units even in big numbers, useless tier 5 units. But that's just my opinion...

But I agree with you DL, in HIII and HIV it depends on how you play your faction. In HV it all depends on how many luck you or your enemy has...

[okrane]

In HV it all depends on how many luck you or your enemy has...

and that's a synonime for "unbalanced"...