Patch 1.3 is out...

[Jolly Joker]

Leave such things as massive changes in building costs to fans.

Who's on drugs here?

[ThunderTitan]

Ah, so you rather want the game to stay as it is - which you don't like.

You know what the diference between improve and change is?!

[Jolly Joker]

Sure, TT. Improve is a highly subjective special case of changing, as in every improvement is a change, but not each change is an improvement. However, what exactly IS an improvement, is higly debatable, so what for one is an improvement may be a desaster for another.
Moreover the problem here seemded to be the quantity, not the quality: TOO MUCH of a change, whether improvement or not.
Does that answer your question?

[ThunderTitan]

Does that answer your question?

It really does...

[sezerp]

I don't like radical changes too much either. But if they make the game better - what the hell. It's not like they introduced simultanous retaliation or changed effects of Spell Power

[Alamar]

I'm not a fan of radical changes myself but one of the things I've been screaming for the most is a rebalance of the factions.

IMHO the balance was WAAYY out of whack so it makes sense to me that any attempts to rebalance would require fairly big changes.

If there are problems I think that repeated play will easily point those out and we'll go from there.

[cornellian]

I wonder if the people here screaming for blood here because Nival tweaked some spells and changed some mechanics have actually heard of Diablo and World of Warcraft.

The latter, being the single most popular game of the last ten years, and one that was tested for millions of hours by thousands of people, is, still, constantly changing, and the first couple 'patches' it got had very extensive modifications to game mechanics, spells and even to player classes.. Countless people that spent hundreds of hours for their characters had to delete their characters, and you are complaining about what, the need to redevelop your strategies? Be a little more reasonable..

[LordErtz]

I wonder if the people here screaming for blood here because Nival tweaked some spells and changed some mechanics have actually heard of Diablo and World of Warcraft.

The latter, being the single most popular game of the last ten years, and one that was tested for millions of hours by thousands of people, is, still, constantly changing, and the first couple 'patches' it got had very extensive modifications to game mechanics, spells and even to player classes.. Countless people that spent hundreds of hours for their characters had to delete their characters, and you are complaining about what, the need to redevelop your strategies? Be a little more reasonable..

Blizzard = godlike
Nival = snival

[Meandor]

Leave such things as massive changes in building costs to fans.

Who's on drugs here?

Random changes in costs "for fun" is what usually some fans do with modable games. From first impresion it does look like random changes. Yes, time will show if these changes are "random" or made game balanced. It`s too early to judge if these changes rock or suck.

I wonder if the people here screaming for blood here because Nival tweaked some spells and changed some mechanics have actually heard of Diablo and World of Warcraft.

Diablo- action rpg. WoW- mmorpg. H5- turn based strategy.
I should have clarified my last post, i meant that developers usually don`t do such changes in strategy games.

[cornellian]

I should have clarified my last post, i meant that developers usually don`t do such changes in strategy games.

Well I hadn't written my post with you in mind actually but let me remind you that extremely popular games like Age of Empires and Starcraft had gone through patches -official and unofficial- that forced people to change the way they played. Starcraft got patched every single week for a month when it first came out IIRC; and you can still find many Age of Kings games in Zone that ban Turks and Teutons, not because they have been made too powerful by Microsoft in a patch, but because they were too powerful originally, and haven't been nerfed in a patch...

What I am saying is all we have to do is think different tactics, we shouldn't make a big deal out of it. Not that I think they're right, but if Nival thinks these changes will make the game a more complete package, than let them be...

[Meandor]

Starcraft got patched every single week for a month when it first came out IIRC

Might be. But it they were polishing game, IIRC they haven`t done anything massive, like changing costs of almost all important buildings in one patch.

[vhilhu]

and you can still find many Age of Kings games in Zone that ban Turks and Teutons

teutons? i found byzantines invincible with almost all good units available. or is it just me thinking that.

[cornellian]

teutons? i found byzantines invincible with almost all good units available. or is it just me thinking that.

Well, no, many people would concur that the Byzantines are not exactly wimps, they are very strong as well; but it's just that people ban Turks and Teutons most of the time.

P.S: As a side note, a host of pikemen and Teuton knights backed by several priests and a dozen catapults can counter anything Byztantines can throw at them, and they will plan their next invasion and drink ale at the same time . Not that this saves them from the wrath of the mighty Ottomans...

[magritte2]

I don't really see the big deal. The adjustments thus far seem pretty small compared to what Civilization III or Crusader Kings went through.

[Cyrox]

Im not happy with the spell changes in the recent patches(cuz i love magic). Though it might have needed some balancing =P.

Im with some of the ppl here...its like playing a different game...they shouldnt change what neednt be changed.

[NickMP]

In some ways, Nival reminds me a bit of Paradox Entertainment. For those not familiar, Paradox is the developer behind the Europa Universalis/Hearts of Iron/Victoria/Crusader Kings family of games. They start with a fantastic basic game design--borrowed from their own Europa Universalis for Paradox, borrowed from NWC in Nival's case. They make some nice decisions to overlay that design. I think HOMM V has six interesting cohesive factions, the hero skill tree and town building trees are great, and although they're not always that useful, the unique racial abilities add to the uniqueness of the factions.

Unfortunately, the initial release of HOMM V, like typical Paradox games was seriously lacking in polish. The manual was laughable. Paradox actually often has extensive manuals, but they're chock full of interesting historical information and very, very short on explaining how the game works. The AI in Paradox games, especially in initial releases tends to be quite bad as well. But on the plus side, Paradox keeps plugging away and improving their games with subsequent patches--I think Crusader Kings has been overhauled almost beyond recognition over the past two years. Perhaps Nival will be similar. On the other hand, Paradox is a very small developer that makes niche-market games, whereas Nival has a lot larger budget, and shouldn't really have to operate this way. But maybe HOMM5 is their first really big market game--I don't know much about any of their previous games.

Yes, this is a good analogy. Another parallel is that Paradox are one of the few companies that make complex, deep strategy games - like HOMM. In fact, at the moment the only games I play are from Paradox apart from HOMM. To my mind, it's a necessity if we are to enjoy this sort of game that we accept that not every combination of factions and features has been tested in-house to the extent that will hpapen once it reaches tens of thousands of players. If it's Pong or Space Invaders, they can get it right first time. With something like HOMM, they can make a reasonable shot with the first release, but we should want them to keep tinkering for a few months as feedback comes in.
Counter-example: Master of Orion 3. A great series of games with an interesting sequel which didn't quite work as it should. The developers pushed it out and basically left it at that. People hate them for it.
Incidentlaly, Paradox have announced cooperation with Nival on a future project.

[LordErtz]

Sprites and druids got a MAJOR mana rehaul.

They can each cast lightening or wasp swarm at least 5 times now lol.


edit: This seems to have only been for a few fights...not sure what triggered the cheaper mana. It was all halved. I had no special that changed mana (obviously or it wouldnt have gone back up to double). I have no artifacts, so I find it interesting that even my hero had half priced spells...maybe it was a special month I didn't pay attention to.

[DaemianLucifer]

Sprites and druids got a MAJOR mana rehaul.

They can each cast lightening or wasp swarm at least 5 times now lol.


edit: This seems to have only been for a few fights...not sure what triggered the cheaper mana. It was all halved. I had no special that changed mana (obviously or it wouldnt have gone back up to double). I have no artifacts, so I find it interesting that even my hero had half priced spells...maybe it was a special month I didn't pay attention to.

I think its the week of magic when all spells costs are halfed.

[cornellian]

If it's Pong or Space Invaders, they can get it right first time. With something like HOMM, they can make a reasonable shot with the first release, but we should want them to keep tinkering for a few months as feedback comes in.

Exactly, though even Paradox isn't very dedicated to patching.. Europe Universalis II, one of the greatest games of last couple years suffers from a strange AI that unfortunately hasn't been fixed.. Luckily they are making EU III now...

Incidentlaly, Paradox have announced cooperation with Nival on a future project.

This is good news, as I believe the guys in Nival has potential but little experience, something Paradox can help in.. I can't help but think about a game having EU's depth and the engine of HoMM V; now that would be something...

[DaemianLucifer]

Theres been lot of talk about balancing the racial specials.How did that turn out?