map editor has 8 town limit - nival has to change this

[Thelonious]

Really, 8 towns... mmm, I really think that 8 is (well, just looking at map sizes) suffiencient. In most cases on the maps that'll be enough. But I do agree that it should be able to implement more maps, like 16 would be a better cap -> Map sizes not to big...

Anyway, as for the putting towns together to create a large town impression > that can't be used in HoMM V looking at the town models.

[DaemianLucifer]

Whats wrong with putting "as much as your computer can handle" as the only limmit?Do devs really think we are incompetent for this?Or are they afraid as HP said?

[Ethric]

You could have the same effect with dwellings.

Do the h5 map editor implement standalone buildings of incity structures that you can fit all in the space a city occupies? I really doubt that, as the buildings would have to be tiny.

It's beside the point anyway, workarounds that you could get the "same" effect of (through more work). 48 or a higher number could be said to be a functional limit, but 8, or 16, is quite clearly an artificial limit that will be an obstacle mapmakers will run into, for no good reason that I can see.

And picking on the reason why I had 31 towns in one map is also quite beside the point. The point is that you should have that option, for whatever reason you see fit.

[Dragon Angel]

Just didn't see this pointed out... might seem a stupid reason for the limit, but often stupid things are the true ones:

Thue GUI bar showing towns and heroes has ¡8! columns...

Knowing some of the "lazy" responses Nival gives, whoever could say they don't care about implementing a way of sliding through this bar... therefore 8 towns should be the max you are allowed to have.

Of course, I agree 8 towns is much less than enough... 16 i could live with for most maps. But I would like at least a cap of 24 or 32... I think these numbers are high enough to not be reached by a number of functional towns.

[DaemianLucifer]

It actually has been pointed out,and also dismissed because the slider is already implemented in the game.Someone did mention playing with 9 towns.

[Dragon Angel]

It actually has been pointed out,and also dismissed because the slider is already implemented in the game.Someone did mention playing with 9 towns

Yep, my bad. My excuses. Missed that post following JJ's discussion about balance...

However, If someone has been able to play a map with 9 towns... why should then the editor have an 8 town cap?. How has that map been made, then?

Methinks then we are worrying about something that happens in a version of the editor, that -in first place- we are not supposed to have.

[LordErtz]

I haven't played the game in about a month, so I must have someone refresh me.


Is there a map in the campaign or scenarios that have more than 8 castles? I'm sorry if this was already mentioned...but it seems if there are 8 or more in the campaign or other maps then it should be possible with the map editor.

If not, get ready to be disappointed.

[Nebs]

Mission 4 of last campaign has 9 towns. 5 Havens, and 4 Necropolises.

[asandir]

perhaps this is all a little immaterial, since we haven't seen the final version of the map editor .... maybe Ururam Tururam can shed some "guesses" as to what may be correct

[Jolly Joker]

I just posted the following in the official forum:

"Disclaimer: I can't guarantee that the following is true, but I have it on VERY good authority.
1) There is NO 8 town limit for maps. The editor allows placing more. I don't know, how many more or whether there is a limit for the # of towns at all, but my impression is that there is no limit at all.
2) HOWEVER: There is a fixed in-game VICTORY CONDITION. A player will win immediately as soon as he or she has captured 8 towns.

My personal opinion here is the following.
a) For MP play this allows some interesting variations in a Diplomacy-like way. If playing a map with 16 towns it's enough to have 8, so that would FORCE players to attack the leading one threatening to win.
b) For Single play this basically rules out all maps that would involve capturing AND HOLDING more than that. Without giving the matter some thought there seem to be at least two ways to go around this. The first involves destroying a captured town after the capture or a retaking of towns by the opposition; the second would simply make it necessary to make mini-campaigns instead of "real epic" maps - which would seem to be a much more interesting way to present epic struggles, anyway. Of course, for this a campaign editor is needed and 1.3 won't contain one, but... ah, err, um, uh oh. Weeeeellll. I didn't say nothing, hear me? NOTHING!"

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I just posted the following in the official forum:

"Disclaimer: I can't guarantee that the following is true, but I have it on VERY good authority.
1) There is NO 8 town limit for maps. The editor allows placing more. I don't know, how many more or whether there is a limit for the # of towns at all, but my impression is that there is no limit at all.
2) HOWEVER: There is a fixed in-game VICTORY CONDITION. A player will win immediately as soon as he or she has captured 8 towns.

the second would simply make it necessary to make mini-campaigns instead of "real epic" maps - which would seem to be a much more interesting way to present epic struggles, anyway. Of course, for this a campaign editor is needed and 1.3 won't contain one, but... ah, err, um, uh oh. Weeeeellll. I didn't say nothing, hear me? NOTHING!"

I hope if the 8 town victory condition is indeed hardcoded that they will change it to allow the mapmaker to enable or disable the condition.

Well, I hope that they will update the editor to allow campaigns soon if that is indeed not to be included in 1.3.

Yes, everyone could make campaigns (if the editor allows) instead of epic maps, but:

1) Many of us like epic maps, and I think past surveys showed that the majority of single players at least prefered the largest size maps to smaller ones.

2) Campaigns are more difficult to make.

GOW

[Nebs]

Would like some epic maps with that size. :-)

[Qarl]

Not sure what your very good authority is JJ, but in the beta map editor, you set your own victory conditions (like you'd expect) and there IS an 8 town placement limit.

[Gaidal Cain]

I hope if the 8 town victory condition is indeed hardcoded that they will change it to allow the mapmaker to enable or disable the condition.

Once again, C6M4 basically forced you to capture all towns, so there's some way to disable it. I hope Nival allows ordinary mapmakers to do that as well.

As for beta editor: don't take anything in it for proof of how the final game will be. Be concerned, and demand answers from ubival, but don't make any final decisions based on it.

[DaemianLucifer]

I just posted the following in the official forum:

"Disclaimer: I can't guarantee that the following is true, but I have it on VERY good authority.
1) There is NO 8 town limit for maps. The editor allows placing more. I don't know, how many more or whether there is a limit for the # of towns at all, but my impression is that there is no limit at all.
2) HOWEVER: There is a fixed in-game VICTORY CONDITION. A player will win immediately as soon as he or she has captured 8 towns.

I do hope that by fixed vitory condition it means fixed,but can be turned off.

[Ethric]

A nice option would be the ability to set victory=true if one player has n towns.

A not so useful, but still ok option is the ability to set victory=true if player holds 8 towns.

A ridicolous restraint, needless hurdle for mapmakers and overall good way to make the game less fun is to hardcode victory=true if player holds 8 town no matter what, with no off-button.

Hope for the first, ok with the second, and appalead at the thought that the third might be the case

There has been several rumours of late about ways the mapeditor will tie your hands when making a map, I do hope nival know that a good mapeditor is one that opens up options for the mapmaker and leaves it up to the individual to decide what works (and the players to decide if he\she was right). There are lots of ways to make a ridicolous and unfun map, but nival shouldn't set out to try to prevent all of them. If I may hazard a guess, I'd guess that a very open mapmaker wouldn't really produce too many complaints directly at nival for allowing unskilled mapmakers to make poor map, while a very constraining mapeditor will produce quite a few conmplaints about the constraints preventing creativity in mapmaking.

[Qarl]

Agreed Gaidal Cain. I'm actually hoping that the time they're takng for releasing patch 1.4 is being used to enhance the map editor.

Ethric, I've been messing with the beta map editor and right now it's very powerful. You can set a huge number of victory conditions and do all the things the devs could do with scripting. I'm hoping they keep it this powerful an d don't dumb it down. As it is though, being so powerful, it has a much higher learning curve than say, the H3 map editor.

A more powerful map editor means: Higher learning curve. Less people will actually be able to figure it out and make maps from it. Some truly spectacular maps and campaigns could be made.

A less powerful map editor means: Easy to use. Almost every would be able to make their own maps. All maps will end up being mediocure and very similar.

[myythryyn]

Qarl, you say you are playing with the map editor beta.

you have said that you can put more than eight towns on a map, right?

can you please clarify, or repeat, is there an eight town capture hardcoded victory condition?

if this condition is in the beta, do you think it will be in the released version?

it just seems there is confusing info going around....

[Ethric]

Why do you compare it with the H3 editor, when H4 had a vastly more powerful one... bit like saying "This new spaceshuttle is really complex, much harder to learn how to pilot than a bicycle."

[Qarl]

Qarl, you say you are playing with the map editor beta.

you have said that you can put more than eight towns on a map, right?

can you please clarify, or repeat, is there an eight town capture hardcoded victory condition?

if this condition is in the beta, do you think it will be in the released version?

it just seems there is confusing info going around....

No, you can NOT put more than 8 towns on the map. But there is no set 8 town victory condition. You can set any victory condition you like.