Dark Messiah Assassin Video

[ThunderTitan]

Now you are just being silly.Another example,the one youll believe more easilly,is an executioner cutting someones head off with an axe.

By using gravity and a heavy axe. And striking the neck, not the body. Cutting someones head in combat is quite a feat, cutting his body unlikely. Unless he's somalian or something, but then he wouldn't have enough energy to fight, would he.

If the stumbled off the cliff then it would be ok,but the orc didnt stumble,he flew off the cliff.
Also,the arrows dont seem to be affected by gravity.But,this one cannot be completely seen in the video.Maybe they are,who knows.

About 300m, depending on the bow. The only reason crossbows and muskets replaced bows is because it takes less training to use them. If you can knock someone down with a punch, you can do it with an arrow. It's not like it lifted him 5m in the air.

[DaemianLucifer]

By using gravity and a heavy axe. And striking the neck, not the body. Cutting someones head in combat is quite a feat, cutting his body unlikely. Unless he's somalian or something, but then he wouldn't have enough energy to fight, would he.

It can be done with a two handed sword,although the cut wouldnt be straight,but slightly tilted.Although the one wielding it should be very strong in order to swing that monstrosoty hard enough.Hed probably be dead while doing that though.

About 300m, depending on the bow. The only reason crossbows and muskets replaced bows is because it takes less training to use them. If you can knock someone down with a punch, you can do it with an arrow. It's not like it lifted him 5m in the air.

Range,accuracy and armor piercing power are also an issue here.

[ThunderTitan]

It can be done with a two handed sword,although the cut wouldnt be straight,but slightly tilted.

I doubt the type of sword would be the most relevant in cutting off head. Katana's were tested by cutting off prisoners heads. In combat is way harder as positioning is the main factor.
And is more likely that the sword will push the victim down then cut him in half.

Range, accuracy and armor piercing power are also an issue here.

I seriously doubt there ever where bows that made an arrow get out the other side of someone.
And the bow was superior in all of those to the musket. And the longbow to both.

[DaemianLucifer]

I doubt the type of sword would be the most relevant in cutting off head. Katana's were tested by cutting off prisoners heads. In combat is way harder as positioning is the main factor.
And is more likely that the sword will push the victim down then cut him in half.

Yet katanas are light.Although they could penetrate quite deep into someone.Probably cutting him in half,but that one also depends.

I seriously doubt there ever where bows that made an arrow get out the other side of someone.
And the bow was superior in all of those to the musket. And the longbow to both.

Bow was supperior in armor piercing? And in range? In accuracy,well thats debatable.

[ThunderTitan]

Bow was supperior in armor piercing? And in range? In accuracy,well thats debatable.

. The Arbalest was probably better then the longbow (because it used steel), but had a way slower fireing rate (as all crossbow and muskets). The crossbows had the advantage of heavier ammo which was prob more effective against armour at close range.

Like I said, the main reason muskets were prefered is because of the shorts training time. 1000 longbows were better in a war then the same number of crossbows or muskets. The problem was getting 1000 men that could use them.

Crossbows were used in European warfare from roughly 800 to 1500 A.D. They supplanted bows in many European armies for a number of reasons. Although an expertly handled longbow had greater range, better accuracy (the heavy arbalest crossbow being the exception here), and faster rate of fire than an average crossbow, the value of the crossbow came in its simplicity: it could be used effectively after a week of training, while a comparable single-shot skill with a longbow could take years of practice.

[Solace]

On the knocking people back with bullets or arrows : Impossible.

Watch Myth Busters. They did a show on it :-p It just doesn't happen. Maybe if it was a ginormous bow.. That shot pointed logs....



Or the equivilant of a human shooting a pixie... yeah.... that may work.

[DaemianLucifer]

Maybe if it was a ginormous bow.. That shot pointed logs....

You mean something like a balista?

[ThunderTitan]

On the knocking people back with bullets or arrows : Impossible.
Watch Myth Busters. They did a show on it :-p

Even with a .45? Or a machinegun? And i'm pretty sure that getting a piece of wood through you will make you fall down.

Oh, and i think something that could pierce armour should be able to know you down:

The strongest windlass-pulled arbalests could have up to 5000 lb strength

[soupnazii]

you people are making way too much of a big deal on this. the guy was standing maybe 5 feet away grom the orc, and the orc was standfing with his back to the cliff maybe half a foot away. the guy pulled the bow back as hard as he could, making it a pretty strong shot. the orc was hit in a way that would normally make him stumble backwards, or maybe fall over. since there was no groung behind him for him to stumble onto, he fell off the cliff.

[Gaidal Cain]

With reagrds to the whole debate about the impat of an arrow: the reason it pierces armor is that all it's force is applied at a very small area, which pierces the armor. When trying to move you, it has to move the whole body, and it's so much heavier than the arrow that it won't be affected much. The only way that you'd move after being hit is if you get shocked into moving by yourself. Well, unless you're hit by an ballista bolt or cannonball...

[ThunderTitan]

With reagrds to the whole debate about the impat of an arrow: the reason it pierces armor is that all it's force is applied at a very small area, which pierces the armor. When trying to move you, it has to move the whole body, and it's so much heavier than the arrow that it won't be affected much. The only way that you'd move after being hit is if you get shocked into moving by yourself. Well, unless you're hit by an ballista bolt or cannonball...

"Down and to the left...." remember JFK.

If you're standing your ground then you'd probably not move much, but if your not the impact should make you fall. It doesn't need to throw you back alot, just make you fall down.

And remember, those aren't hunting bows, but warbows.

[Gaidal Cain]

If you're standing your ground then you'd probably not move much, but if your not the impact should make you fall. It doesn't need to throw you back alot, just make you fall down.

An arrow weighs somewhere around 0.1 kg (the order of magnitude is what's important here- doubling the figure won't affect the outcome by much). It moves at about 100 m/s. This means that an orc, whose weigth is about 100 kg would get a velocity of 0.1 m/s when hit by an arrow if he's floating in a zero-g environment. Since we're dealing with orcs that are standing or walking here, they will most likely have good enough foothold to withstand the impact. Again, what's important is the shock on the system- the fact that you're hit by something that hurts, which makes you move. If the orc would be replaced by a sandbag, it wouldn't be falling, unless it was in an unstable position form the start.

Sources for arrow weigths and velocities:
http://home.att.net/~sajackson/amochart.html
http://www.timberline-archery.com/arrow_speed.asp

[ThunderTitan]

If the orc would be replaced by a sandbag, it wouldn't be falling, unless it was in an unstable position form the start.

How many legs does a sandbag have? Footing is the most important thing in balancing. If you don't have your footing right and are unprepared it doesn't take much force to push you down. And lets not mention the fact that the impact would disipate differently in sand.

Remember, we only stand up because were constantly balancing ourselves. There are alot more factors at work the just weight.

And those seem like hunting bows to me. Remember the Arbalest? Another thing is what the tip is made of, and for what purpose.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_lo ... iving_bows

To penetrate chain mail armour many war arrows had "chisel" (or "bodkin") heads and were quite massive.

[Gaidal Cain]

How many legs does a sandbag have? Footing is the most important thing in balancing. If you don't have your footing right and are unprepared it doesn't take much force to push you down. And lets not mention the fact that the impact would disipate differently in sand.

When standing or walking, you need much more than an arrow to actually fall.

Remember, we only stand up because were constantly balancing ourselves. There are alot more factors at work the just weight.

Exactly. The impact has next to nothing to do with the falling- it's the movements that the pain casues that's what makes you fall.

Another thing is what the tip is made of, and for what purpose.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_lo ... iving_bows

To penetrate chain mail armour many war arrows had "chisel" (or "bodkin") heads and were quite massive.

I doubt that the arrows that one person carries like in DM is very massive. 0,1 kg seems like an OK approximation. Doubling or tripling that weigth won't matter that much.

[ThunderTitan]

When standing or walking, you need much more than an arrow to actually fall.
Exactly. The impact has next to nothing to do with the falling- it's the movements that the pain casues that's what makes you fall.
.

What, you never fell down because someone pushed you slightly? Without causing you pain? It's more like the shock that makes you fall. It's called loosing balance. Humanoids aren't sacks of sand, without balance they fall down. Heck, even sacks of sand will fall if the arrow moves it center of weight enough.

By your definition if a guy stabed me with a knife i would fall down, because, hey, i'm in pain.

And check the link, to see why longbows were so good.

[DaemianLucifer]

Even with a .45? Or a machinegun? And i'm pretty sure that getting a piece of wood through you will make you fall down.

Yep,even the .45 cal,or the machinegun cannot send you flying.You dont have to calculate it even,just look at the countreforce argument I meant.Sure,a bullet can make you jerk your head or your arm back,but it wont send you flying backwards.If that was the case,then the guy fireing a magnum would have his arm ripped off after every shot.

The orc doesnt fall down,neither does he stumble,he flies a bit and then falls down the cliff,and thats whats wrong.If he stumbled,or just slipped,Id have no objections with that.

[Gaidal Cain]

What, you never fell down because someone pushed you slightly? Without causing you pain?

I don't think I have when I was pushed with the comparabel momentum of an arrow. I would have had to be running if that were to be possible.

By your definition if a guy stabed me with a knife i would fall down, because, hey, i'm in pain.

Nope. I haven't said that any strike by an arrow will make you fall, because they won't. But if you do, it's not because of the push.

As Daemian said, an Orc falling or slipping after being hit would be OK. however, in the video it looked like someone kicked it. No way a bowshot can have that effect.

[ThunderTitan]

You guys are exagerating the orcs fall. I checked the video before i started arguing and he wasn't flying. Arrow hit him, he went down. It might look a bit unnatural, but that might just be the collision detection.

[stysio]

thats what I know :



1. the guy in the video pushes the orc down the never-ending cliff (btw who the **** builds homes in places like that ?)

2. the guy doesn't carry a Browning M2 .50 carabine.

3.nor the mark .44 deagle.

4. nor the arbalist.

5. he is an assasin. so he can't possibly be a guy like John Rambo carrying 160 ibs bow which requires Chuck Norris/Supermans strength to shoot. so the power of the missle can't be very high.

6.he didn't use even a vulcan minigun



conclusion?



a) it's a mistake in game which can be fixed (normally the orc would fall down very close to the place where he was shot)



b) the guy used Light Anti-tank Weapon (LAW) or M79 Grenade Launcher, and it only used a bow skin!

[ThunderTitan]

Actualy i'm beggining to think it was the collision detection you all got so annoyed at. And that's not something they can fix. Unless you want Orcs falling through solid objects.

But why shouldn't an Assassin have enough strenght for a longbow? Stealth shouldn't preclude strenght, he just doesn't use it as much. Carying all those bodies around should make him quite buff.