My H5-rant\whine (long post)

[DaemianLucifer]

I was very careful not to make any "judgments" upon the merits of H4 in making my post. I merely stated that Ubi made the decision to use H3 as the template to base the game on. Whether you deem that to be a good decision or not, that is up to you, and I do not want to get drawn into that argument. As to the intention and meaning of my words, I am the author of the post, and I told you what I meant. if you want to torture the words to infer another meaning, feel free, but I will no longer argue the issue with you. You just seem to want to fight about it.

Making HIII as a template is a good thing,but they didnt do that.

And,as Ethric said,there are things thatll make HIII fans frown(no paperdoll,no kingdom overview,no snow,etc).

[NickMP]

I'm a Heroes 4 fan, though I enjoyed H3 too. I generally hate 3D and am clumsy with cameras (I am totally useless at 3D space games), so I'd have expected to agree with the comments here. But I don't. The camera seems to me very easy to use - set it on a moderate tilt matching the inset map orientation and you almost neve have to fiddle with it (though it helps to have a mouse wheel for easy zooming). Caravans are nice to have but not a huge deal (and the auto-reinforce option for the good guys makes them largely irrelevant in that case).

My main grumble is that the scripted AI in the campaigns seems totally passive. The designers say this is because the campaigns are about telling a story, which seems to mean that the enemy hangs about waiting for you to trigger the appropriate next chapter. I quite enjoy the stories so that's OK up to a point, but playing on Hard I find I can afford leisurely to build up my forces until I can squash whatever I meet, and that's not sensible and a retrograde step compared with H3, where the enemy would lash out and seize towns if you took too long. I still like the game but I don't feel sufficiently challenged yet (maybe when I get to that infamous Inferno scenario!).

[DaemianLucifer]

I'm a Heroes 4 fan, though I enjoyed H3 too. I generally hate 3D and am clumsy with cameras (I am totally useless at 3D space games), so I'd have expected to agree with the comments here. But I don't. The camera seems to me very easy to use - set it on a moderate tilt matching the inset map orientation and you almost neve have to fiddle with it (though it helps to have a mouse wheel for easy zooming).

Doesnt work in the underground,though.Lots of camera movement is required there.And what about hidden objects?You see their glow,but you cannot target them.Wait until somewhere in the half of inferno campaign where you have to pinpoint your view between two large trees.

My main grumble is that the scripted AI in the campaigns seems totally passive. The designers say this is because the campaigns are about telling a story, which seems to mean that the enemy hangs about waiting for you to trigger the appropriate next chapter. I quite enjoy the stories so that's OK up to a point, but playing on Hard I find I can afford leisurely to build up my forces until I can squash whatever I meet, and that's not sensible and a retrograde step compared with H3, where the enemy would lash out and seize towns if you took too long. I still like the game but I don't feel sufficiently challenged yet (maybe when I get to that infamous Inferno scenario!).

There are a few scenarions that match HIII in chalenge.The famous c2m3,for example.Although if youve mastered HIII,it wont be a problem.

[ThunderTitan]

I was very careful not to make any "judgments" upon the merits of H4 in making my post. As to the intention and meaning of my words, I am the author of the post, and I told you what I meant.

And yet you refuse to aknowledge that that sentence could be interpreted any other way by a sane person. The again i'm probably just infering that because of my rabid H4 fanboism.

[Gaidal Cain]

In turn, when it comes time for Heroes 6, the posters remaining at CH will be mostly H5 fans.

I missed this... what an odd statement

Not really. Unless Equilibris continues to "support" H4, it'll be a very old game when H6 arrives. People quit boards, for one reason or another, and the newcomers will mostly have been brought in by H5. So, "most" people around here when H6 is releasedwill be H5 fans (which of course doesn't mean that they can't be fans of the other games in the series).

[ywhtptgtfo]

Didnt even bother to pick up H5. I haven't been impressed with the screens or the demo since the start. As much as I dislike H4, I'd say H5 is even worse. I might have more fun playing H1 instead.

If you liked H3, you'll like H5. Almost the whole gameplay (just improved) is there. Unles you don't like H3, that is.

They have their differences. Just look at the combat interface - Heroes 3 requires much more strategy. Despite H5's 3D graphics, I still like Heroes 3's much more.

[Ethric]

In turn, when it comes time for Heroes 6, the posters remaining at CH will be mostly H5 fans.

I missed this... what an odd statement

Not really. Unless Equilibris continues to "support" H4, it'll be a very old game when H6 arrives. People quit boards, for one reason or another, and the newcomers will mostly have been brought in by H5. So, "most" people around here when H6 is releasedwill be H5 fans (which of course doesn't mean that they can't be fans of the other games in the series).

While it is likely that new people joining will do it mostly for H5, what was said was that "the posters remaining at CH", which I read as people will leave CH because they didn't like how H5 turned out. That was what I found odd, as H5-bashing finds a fair share of support here

[addicted]

I for one, personally Love H-4. I will never understand Nival's reasoning of not implementing any of H-4 features into H-5 which in my opinion is asinine, after all H-4 is part of HOMM's History (like it or not). That's like trying to eliminate part of one's own Countries history just because you 'think' the majority of the world disagreed with it so you try to rewrite history per-se... I loath H-5's 3-D engine and unstable camera, not to mention the 'darkness' in the underground which in my opinion is totally inept! Releasing a game with so many bugs and lack of info is also asinine and really flustrating and adding flustration on top of flustration when all the known bugs wasn't fixed in the first patch which was another rushed released. It is totally a lack of respect for the customers who paid big bucks for this game only to find themselves totally frustrated over many issues. Without going into long details, these are some of the beefs I have. H-5's graphics are nice but I prefer sound stable gameplay over graphics but it could have both worlds if things get fixed in future patches/expansions.. I don't hate H-5, and I certainly think it has great potential. I really am thankful the series was revived and I really want it to succeed and I think it can if Nival gets their head out of sand.

[DaemianLucifer]

I for one, personally Love H-4. I will never understand Nival's reasoning of not implementing any of H-4 features into H-5 which in my opinion is asinine, after all H-4 is part of HOMM's History (like it or not). That's like trying to eliminate part of one's own Countries history just because you 'think' the majority of the world disagreed with it so you try to rewrite history per-se...

Which has been done in numerous ocasions.Dont forget that its the winers that write history.

[Akul]

Well, I am quite confused about the point you are making, but whatever. My statement was that the business guys had to make an initial decision - build off of H4 which did not do well (or well enough), or build off of H3 that did. In my statement, I do not make any express or implied judgment of H4 and its "ideas," nor did I imply that the ideas were the reason for its failure. I did say that the going that route would require resolving the game designs choices made in that game, which can be interpreted as both judging the innovations on their own merits and also resolving problems with their implementations. You seem to infer arguments into my post that I did not make. I am merely telling you that the business guys had to start with that initial decision. You may not like the decision they made, but there it is all the same.

And they had 3rd choice: take the best from btoh H3 and H4 and add something new (skill system, of course) to it and everyone would be happy.

The things they should have implented and that were in H4:
-caravans (90% of people agree with it)
-similiar magic system - tough skill system in H5 is great, the Magic system is simply... terrible. And the H4 one was the the best in series.
-advanced classes - how? Have imagination Nival/Ubi.
-male and female models for every class
-FoW option - increases the strategy element
-proper documentation
-the only thing they seem to have taken was: Ultimately Dumb AI

The things they promised:
-"During playing players will be able to make alliances with other factions." - which means that you can make alliance with a player which you don't need to eliminate. But Nival found out that strategies (especialy TBS) don't need a good AI so nothing from diplomacy
-Q: "Will Heroes fight on battlefield?"
A: "Depends on faction" - an option would be nice. By good balancing, this could have been done. At least heroes have more value then in H3.
Hope: perhaps they'll add that option in expansion. Stronghold could have BF heroes

Things they screwed or things they didn't need to add:
-hero screen. If they wanted a hero maneken, they could at least put artifact squares on him.
-Dumb, dumd AI
-AI cheating.
-Unimpresive campaign selection and stupid campaign names IMO.
-they should have put H2 upgrading system. But that requires bit more thinking I fear :-P

In any event, this is off-point. I like the game.

So what? I also like the game and that doesn't stop me from crying :-P

[DaemianLucifer]

-they should have put H2 upgrading system. But that requires bit more thinking I fear :-P

Modified disciples system would be way better.Or civ IV system.

[ThunderTitan]

Modified disciples system would be way better.Or civ IV system.

Or no upgrades at all. And the last thing I want is for HoMM or Disciples to turn into oneanother.

[DaemianLucifer]

Or no upgrades at all. And the last thing I want is for HoMM or Disciples to turn into oneanother.

Thats why I said modified.Use expirience,but no upgrades,for example.

[HMMFan]

In turn, when it comes time for Heroes 6, the posters remaining at CH will be mostly H5 fans.

I missed this... what an odd statement

Not really. Unless Equilibris continues to "support" H4, it'll be a very old game when H6 arrives. People quit boards, for one reason or another, and the newcomers will mostly have been brought in by H5. So, "most" people around here when H6 is releasedwill be H5 fans (which of course doesn't mean that they can't be fans of the other games in the series).

Thank you, exactly what i meant. And, I for one, will retire from the boards until that time. Good luck everyone...I hope H6 is more to your liking.

[Akul]

Thank you, exactly what i meant. And, I for one, will retire from the boards until that time. Good luck everyone...I hope H6 is more to your liking.

You told few times that you won't return alredy.
In fact, this isn't a bad situation. Go to www.elderscrolls.com and see flaming on Oblivion there. Ones you are there, this will sem like a himn for H5

[Ethric]

Thank you, exactly what i meant. And, I for one, will retire from the boards until that time. Good luck everyone...I hope H6 is more to your liking.

Oh dear me, hope you don't feel chased off And I hope you caught me explaining why I thought you meant what I thought you meant and not what you meant to mean before you left.

...but then you won't read this anyway, I'm just talking to myself

PS: Oblivion deserves all the flaming it can get

[Caradoc]

My, my, this topic has certainly degenerated, hasn't it? Is there a moderator in the house? Or perhaps could we get back to Ethric's thoughtful review?

I agree that Nival missed the boat in choosing to implement only small 1x1 and large 2x2 figures. The size differences are visually jarring. I would think they might have used the intermediate sizes 1x2 and 2x1, which would be more appropriate to the creatures they aim to represent.

I also wonder why the large creatures do not take extra damage when they have multiple squares targeted by area spells.

And finally, I think it was a mistake to disallow the screening of creatures in ranged attack. I would think that an Imp hiding behind an ArchDevil would get some measure of protection.

[DaemianLucifer]

My, my, this topic has certainly degenerated, hasn't it? Is there a moderator in the house? Or perhaps could we get back to Ethric's thoughtful review?

Well the one helping it stray is a moderator

I agree that Nival missed the boat in choosing to implement only small 1x1 and large 2x2 figures. The size differences are visually jarring. I would think they might have used the intermediate sizes 1x2 and 2x1, which would be more appropriate to the creatures they aim to represent.

A posible,and reasonable explanation would be that if a 2x1 creature was pinned,it couldnt turn to attack.

I also wonder why the large creatures do not take extra damage when they have multiple squares targeted by area spells.

This would make those spells a bit to strong.

And finally, I think it was a mistake to disallow the screening of creatures in ranged attack. I would think that an Imp hiding behind an ArchDevil would get some measure of protection.

I agree here completely.Removing LoS was a bad idea.Especially because the BF got simplified.

[Gaidal Cain]

I also wonder why the large creatures do not take extra damage when they have multiple squares targeted by area spells.

One can just as well wonder why not all the creatures in the stack get killed by area-effect spell. Real world logic doesn't really apply with the stacks on the battlefield.

[Akul]

PS: Oblivion deserves all the flaming it can get

Thats not the problem. The problem is in this:
A: RAI sucks.
B: No it doesn't
A: You are an idiot if you don't see that it sucks
C: You are such a fool. You need to...
B: Blah, blah, blah
...
And there are 10 same topics on the same page. Repeating, repeating, repeatin, repeating........(10 years in future)>repeating....