MM8 Help

[FunnyRoger]

Well not help, but more like an advice. Decided to relive childhood memories and play this game after like 10 years. I have not played mm6 and 7, but have read good thing about them, only thing what puts me off is their graphics (i knwo mm8 uses same engine but it looks a bit better), but i think i will get past them i try to enjoy both games.

Anyway back to mm8. When i played it first time, it was in russian which i did not know back then, so this time its english and i hope to enjoy storyline. The main question is about those dragons. As i recall they were very strong if not even overpowered, you could get 1 very early and as game progresses you get get 3 or even all 4 extra party members of dragons. Still as kid i did use like 0 magic abilities of characters and basically did game in brute force and dragons came in very handy. Now when i know little more about gaming, i probably will use magic. So will taking any dragon in my party will make game way too easy, or is 1 dragon fine? I really dont want game to be easy, actually the harder it is the better (no i dont want to do solo play, full party is must).

Also, i installed GrayFace patch. Is there any others patch/mod needed to make gameplay more enjoyable? (without changing it too much)

[zib]

Welcome back to Might and Magic

To answer straight to your question, yes, it will be easy. I'm saying that because basically, mm8 is very easy anyways, with any team, but yeah, dragons are especially powerful, even more if you take them early in the game! So I could say "since it's easy ANYWAYS, don't bother and take a dragon" for instance.

Really all MM6+ are easy (difficulty goes down as the episode number goes up), the only way to get a good challenge is to set yourself a weird game, like the solo you mentioned. It's up to your imagination : speed games, solo games, class restricted games (trying a bit the "unusual" classes, like maybe minotaurs, trolls, vampires...), no might, no magic, no training or restricted training, any combination of those or whatever.

One answer could be : play it twice ! one game without any care of the game being too easy, another one with restrictions for a better challenge.
Thanks to your first game, you'll able to judge what kind of game you'll feel able to complete while still being enjoyable.

If you don't want to play twice, and want a more challenging thing without setting a weird ruleset, you could always try to use a few "unusual" classes, try to level as needed (as opposed to as soon as possible), maybe hire a dragon later. All up to you

I'll end with a comment about mm6-7 graphics : in my opinion they're not uglier than mm8 to me, in fact I find they're exactly the same, except I find mm8's environments boring and empty compared to 6-7.
In case you wonder, yeah, I don't like mm8, although I'm currently replaying it. To me it's just a boring mm7. Then if I had to compare mm6 and mm7 I'd say the main differences are : mm7 is smaller (shorter, has less complex dungeons, has less mobs, is easier), but has a new char development system (better in my opinion: grandmastery, class restrictions, new skills...).

PS: Grayface : I'm not aware of anything else.

EDIT: "just a boring mm7" : maybe it's a bit too strong. I just meant there's nothing really new compared to mm7 except a few things I miss/don't like.

[GreatEmerald]

If you don't deliberately break the story sequence (which means don't visit the dragon town before you're asked to), it won't be a problem. Having 1 dragon at that point is fine. And I don't think you can get more than 2 dragons in total.

As for MM6/7, I agree about MM6 graphics (they really put me off the first time around, as it's a mash of photos and 3D renders that really doesn't look good on first look, but you do get used to it after a while), but MM7 graphics are just as good as MM8. The textures are a bit lower res, but otherwise the art style is pretty much the same as in MM8.

[FunnyRoger]

Thanks for answers! Question about mm6-mm8. How different are skills, magics, weapons etc. in those games? The more complex the better, this is what putting me off most modern RPGs who are dumbed down to ridiculous levels..

[GreatEmerald]

Well, in MM8 you get a few race-specific spells (Vampire, Dark Elf, Dragon), so essentially MM8 has more spells. MM7 has about the same amount of skills, but it allows you to choose them yourself instead of forcing you by presetting characters, so in that regard MM7 has more depth. MM6 has also about the same amount of skills and also doesn't force you to use them, but it doesn't have Grandmaster level and overall the skill tiers don't have such a pronounced effect as in MM7/MM8 (for example, you can learn all spells already at the base level). Weapons are about the same in all. The biggest difference would probably be class selection – in MM8 you only select one character, and their class is bound to their race. In MM6/MM7, you select all four, and race and class are two different things. So there is more depth in that, and MM7 also has a lot larger variety of classes to choose from, too.

[Tress]

So will taking any dragon in my party will make game way too easy, or is 1 dragon fine? I really dont want game to be easy, actually the harder it is the better (no i dont want to do solo play, full party is must).

1 dragon already somewhat trivializes game(specially if you take lvl 5 one early). Taking on more makes any fight trivial due to broken mechanics of dragon's default attack. Basically to me, dragons are sort of secret characters, that you are rewarded for finding, since between lvl 5 one and one on Regna finding those two are rather tricky even with tips from garrote gorge npc. Basically avoid dragon if you want game to posses any challenge

Thanks for answers! Question about mm6-mm8. How different are skills, magics, weapons etc. in those games? The more complex the better, this is what putting me off most modern RPGs who are dumbed down to ridiculous levels..

MM6 had very loose system of skill restrictions. If character could learn skill he could master it and thus archer could use implosion just as good as druid or sorcerer. it made knight somewhat redundant (apart for large hp pool). MM7 have pretty much similar system as mm8 just bit tighter which made hybrid classes not as useful as pure ones thus default party was best(or at least not taking thief, cleric, sorcerer deliberately made game much harder.) MM8 had bit more flexibility on classes, although it too had class like minotaur which almost always lost on all points to other classes. Spells on mm7 was pretty much same as mm8 with few exceptions which basically made some less used spells replaced, also mm7 did not featured racial spells like dark elf or vampire.

[zib]

mm7 [...] which made hybrid classes not as useful as pure ones

And it makes sense this way. Specialists sacrifice versatility for greater power.
But, Problem! As in Might and Magic you have 4 or more characters, you can get all the skills you need to max mastery even with a party of specialists ("pure" classes), thus making hybrids kinda pointless and creating one or two cookie-cutter teams. So that's a general MM7-8 issue.
=> That's why I have to insist again on setting yourself the challenge you want through non cookie-cutter class selection : in M&M, the complexity from skills is not that high, I'd rather talk about replayability, and that's where hybrids and class selection play their role, but you need to be disciplined.

Apart from that, the above guys said everything, including the great difference with MM6's non-restricted system.

Oh noes wait, I have to add that in mm7 you have to choose between Dark and Light during the storyline, this has minor influence on your 2nd promotion classes, and ofc gives you access to Dark/Light magic while forbidding the other. So that's more team complexity, or, like I prefer to say, more replayability.

One last thing since you asked for spell differences, in MM6 like in all other M&M Dark magic is the most (direct-) damaging magic, but the MP cost is like 2x the one in mm7-8, so Dark spam is less smooth here (well, Lloyd's beaconing is easier, so you can compensate with temple healing; also fire realm has a close combat shrapmetal-like spell making it a bit more desirable than in mm7-8 where this knowledge was lost). Also, light magic's buffs are less powerful, so this makes our already Armsmaster-frustrated melee chars just... more frustrated

[GrayFace]

i knwo mm8 uses same engine but it looks a bit better

MM7 has better graphics.

Really all MM6+ are easy (difficulty goes down as the episode number goes up), the only way to get a good challenge is to set yourself a weird game, like the solo you mentioned.

Or tweak monster attributes in monsters.txt file.

If you don't deliberately break the story sequence (which means don't visit the dragon town before you're asked to), it won't be a problem.

Do you mean "do all you can in one location, then switch to another pointed by quests"? That's boring! On first/semi-first playthrough this is really bad. It would ruin the fun of finding out stuff on your own the 1st time.
My advice is to play however you like. Perhaps it would be good avoid early level 50 characters and having multiple dragons, but that's all. I suspect you won't stumble across the level 5 dragon too early. If you find yourself too powerful you can always go into Earth dimension and get your ass kicked Self-restrictions would be good in later playthroughs.

[zib]

Hello Grayface, it's 100% off-topic, but I wanted to say it once since you made my Might and Magic replays so much more enjoyable : THANK YOU!!!

[GreatEmerald]

Do you mean "do all you can in one location, then switch to another pointed by quests"? That's boring! On first/semi-first playthrough this is really bad. It would ruin the fun of finding out stuff on your own the 1st time.

Not all you can. I mean not to deliberately break sequence by going through a swarm of aggravated dragons. When I first played the game, I avoided that place for a very long time, thinking that all the dragons there were actual strong dragons. So when I got my first dragon I was already at level 50 or so.

[FunnyRoger]

MM7 has better graphics.

Lets just call it matter of taste then . But i will surely give MM7 a try.

Or tweak monster attributes in monsters.txt file.

I am not going to do this but thi is what i actually was wondering. If game is as easy as people say, why there isnt some patch/mod to tweak monsters or spells, or nerf dragons a bit to make game harder?

I suspect you won't stumble across the level 5 dragon too early.

Sadly enough even after 10 years I remember where that dragon cave is, so its matter of "do i want him".

If you find yourself too powerful you can always go into Earth dimension and get your ass kicked

Hmm really? I recall that fire plane was the hardest, but maybe memory is playing tricks on me

And I also would like to say thanks for your patch, it really improves game, especially mouse look .

[Tress]

Lets just call it matter of taste then smile . But i will surely give MM7 a try

MM8 have higher tech graphics, like it uses hardware acceleration more and so on, but for some paradoxical reason enemy sprites look much better with hardware acceleration turned off. Of course we lose flashy spells that wey but character sprites doesn't look like victims of blur brush. Past that art quality(not style which is matter of taste) is better in mm7.

Sadly enough even after 10 years I remember where that dragon cave is, so its matter of "do i want him". smile_teeth

well then question is, if you want to trivialize game, like ability to fly at lvl 7, autoattack that decimate everything, and extremely good skill set.

Hmm really? I recall that fire plane was the hardest, but maybe memory is playing tricks on me smile

On earth plane there is much less room to maneuver, thus you get on receiving end of mobs much more faster , also it is much harder to use invisibility on earth plane than others.

And it makes sense this way. Specialists sacrifice versatility for greater power.

Problem is that they don't have versatility they should have. Also not having GM on some skill makes game much harder (even to a point of frustration, like GM body). Sure druid would be versatile if he would be mage/cleric combo that have locked out of elite school of light/dark, but instead it is class with extremely hard promotions and can lvl spells only to master which makes him on par with paladin/archer rather than resembling sorcerer, making him quite redundant. Same with paladin, his inability to GM plate makes his recovery rate much higher than any counterpart which again makes him lacking. It already heavy drawback that he couldn't Gmaster armaster which is huge bonus, making him less of damage output than lets say spy/assassin.
In mm8 they sort of remedied that. Classes like dark elf or vampire is much more attractive, and feeling much more like true hybrids. It's bit sad they left out druid class, and screwed over minotaur class.

[GreatEmerald]

MM8 have higher tech graphics, like it uses hardware acceleration more and so on, but for some paradoxical reason enemy sprites look much better with hardware acceleration turned off.

That's a matter of taste as well. I don't recall if that's really the case, but it could be that turning off acceleration makes everything get scaled using nearest neighbour, instead of bilinear. Which is preferred is a matter of taste as well, then.

Now there was also this bug where with hardware acceleration sprites would get tinted instead of palette swapped, but it was fixed a while ago.

Problem is that they don't have versatility they should have. Also not having GM on some skill makes game much harder (even to a point of frustration, like GM body). Sure druid would be versatile if he would be mage/cleric combo that have locked out of elite school of light/dark, but instead it is class with extremely hard promotions and can lvl spells only to master which makes him on par with paladin/archer rather than resembling sorcerer, making him quite redundant. Same with paladin, his inability to GM plate makes his recovery rate much higher than any counterpart which again makes him lacking. It already heavy drawback that he couldn't Gmaster armaster which is huge bonus, making him less of damage output than lets say spy/assassin.
In mm8 they sort of remedied that. Classes like dark elf or vampire is much more attractive, and feeling much more like true hybrids. It's bit sad they left out druid class, and screwed over minotaur class.

And in The Mandate of Heaven, I feel that the Druid is the one who obsoletes sorcerers. Druids get all the spells, except for light and dark, and on top of that receive a sizeable bonus to SP and defence/offence.
As for in For Blood and Honor, I agree that they aren't that good, but they do quite well in solo challenges!

[GrayFace]

Dark and Light are uber in late game and druids promotion is hell, but I agree that druids are very good. Archers as well. I'd say hybrid classes are as useful as clear ones in MM6.

Sadly enough even after 10 years I remember where that dragon cave is, so its matter of "do i want him".

Then you can take level 30 or 50 dragon.

I am not going to do this but thi is what i actually was wondering. If game is as easy as people say, why there isnt some patch/mod to tweak monsters or spells, or nerf dragons a bit to make game harder?

I remember I released my tweaked monsters.txt for MM6 long time ago. Actually, here it is.

Hmm really? I recall that fire plane was the hardest, but maybe memory is playing tricks on me

Juggernauts hit very hard.

MM8 have higher tech graphics, like it uses hardware acceleration more and so on, but for some paradoxical reason enemy sprites look much better with hardware acceleration turned off.

That is without my patch.

Re: offtopics: you're welcome

[Arret]

MM8 is fine on difficulty so long as you don't get either of the first two dragons, Blazen, or Cauri. The issue is that you can get characters that trivialize the game basically the instant you leave the starting zone. It still isn't a hard game, but it feels much more appropriate. I agree with you that the graphics in 8 are better, but it isn't the popular opinion around here.

I've posted it before and I'll post it again
The strongest party light or dark in MM7 is
Knight+
Cleric+
Sorcerer+
Anything
GM is simply too strong relative to other classes. I tend to like going paladin or knight on light and Sorcerer dark for the 4th character, but it really doesn't matter. Disarm isn't particularly important (which is the only weakness of this party); it is more of an annoyance. There are only a couple places it can be an issue and all it takes is use of Regeneration to keep your healing up.

I don't like druids all that much in 6, but that is probably because I go to Blackshire early. Shrapmetal and Dragon breath keep getting stronger and scale very well. Druids always feel pretty weak late. Solo I can see a druid, but in a standard party...meh.

[Tress]

GM is simply too strong relative to other classes. I tend to like going paladin or knight on light and Sorcerer dark for the 4th character, but it really doesn't matter. Disarm isn't particularly important (which is the only weakness of this party); it is more of an annoyance. There are only a couple places it can be an issue and all it takes is use of Regeneration to keep your healing up.

Well not having disarm is frustrating, not being able to get GM armaster (till last 1/6 of game I might add) bonus that would somewhat increase damage output is much more tolerable, Sure it will take couple extra hits to kill mob but blast from chest in face(besides team is pretty much godlike anyway by that time, that only insta kills and such effects can really harm team, which is solved by gm body) , is blast from chest in face. You cant really do stuff till you have solved disarm problem in party for appropriate segment of game.

I don't like druids all that much in 6, but that is probably because I go to Blackshire early. Shrapmetal and Dragon breath keep getting stronger and scale very well. Druids always feel pretty weak late. Solo I can see a druid, but in a standard party...meh

Druid can always substitute one of pure spell casters so you have extra healing or nuking capabilities during early game. Only thing that druid is bad is his first promotion quest which is hard to do, specially if you dont know beforehand what you will have to do.(mm6 dont have restrictions on skill so it's not that important but still) Sure dark/light somewhat offsets that , but first of all going for early light/dark is really done only one subsequent throughways. On my first play through I did not even knew there is light/dark, until somewhat into of game. Also dark/light dont have good nuke which can always be casted as primary attack, like implosion or incarcerate . DB is aoe, sharpmetal requires extremely close proximity, and toxic cloud is annoyingly slow. So if we raise druids air or fire to good levels he can be very good nuker and help with healing,.
Only downside is that he requires more skill points to be developed.

[tolich]

Juggernauts hit very hard.

Hit-n-run do the trick.

[Tress]

Hit-n-run do the trick

Paralysis, slow or dark grasp trivializes any fight as well (first and last, more so)

[Arret]

GM is simply too strong relative to other classes. I tend to like going paladin or knight on light and Sorcerer dark for the 4th character, but it really doesn't matter. Disarm isn't particularly important (which is the only weakness of this party); it is more of an annoyance. There are only a couple places it can be an issue and all it takes is use of Regeneration to keep your healing up.

Well not having disarm is frustrating, not being able to get GM armaster (till last 1/6 of game I might add) bonus that would somewhat increase damage output is much more tolerable, Sure it will take couple extra hits to kill mob but blast from chest in face(besides team is pretty much godlike anyway by that time, that only insta kills and such effects can really harm team, which is solved by gm body) , is blast from chest in face. You cant really do stuff till you have solved disarm problem in party for appropriate segment of game.

The only places in the game I ever have problems with chests are in the Haunted Mansion and the Light proving ground. Both of these are solved with regeneration and preservation if you are really underleveled. With a knight it is almost as much getting plate to GM as GM armsmaster.

I don't like druids all that much in 6, but that is probably because I go to Blackshire early. Shrapmetal and Dragon breath keep getting stronger and scale very well. Druids always feel pretty weak late. Solo I can see a druid, but in a standard party...meh

Druid can always substitute one of pure spell casters so you have extra healing or nuking capabilities during early game. Only thing that druid is bad is his first promotion quest which is hard to do, specially if you dont know beforehand what you will have to do.(mm6 dont have restrictions on skill so it's not that important but still) Sure dark/light somewhat offsets that , but first of all going for early light/dark is really done only one subsequent throughways. On my first play through I did not even knew there is light/dark, until somewhat into of game. Also dark/light dont have good nuke which can always be casted as primary attack, like implosion or incarcerate . DB is aoe, sharpmetal requires extremely close proximity, and toxic cloud is annoyingly slow. So if we raise druids air or fire to good levels he can be very good nuker and help with healing,.
Only downside is that he requires more skill points to be developed.

It is easy to close proximity (walk up to the opponent and press enter) and a lot of the highest damage spells per spell point rely on it(sparks and poison spray are my main DD spells until Shrapmetal), but really early you almost never want to. Just use bows and clean up. As long as you have 2 healing classes, you shouldn't have a problem.

Once you hit midgame and pick up master light/dark, you really only need 1 light magic caster and due to how poorly a lot of elemental/self spells scale (especially indoors where the majority of the game takes place), druids always feel like a burden after you get to the point where you have finished a few council quests. Having quad shrapmetal is just flat out abusive. If you want a melee character for the hp, they can be nice, but a druid just never feels like anything but a power cure spammer which you should already have 1 or 2 of.

I actually don't like a single DD nuke. Incinerate and Implosion never feels reliable enough. When around half of the attacks do 20 damage, it gets frustrating.

The only real annoyance is the fire elementals in Gharik's Forge which are immune to poison and can't easily walk up to, especially in the bridge room. Ice bolt does a decent job of finishing them off.

[tolich]

Paralysis, slow or dark grasp trivializes any fight as well (first and last, more so)

Doesn't help much, if you're lone elf.