Corlagon wrote:So now the argument against Sandro being Sandro goes far beyond a possible discrepancy as to when he became a Necromancer. Now "the [whole] story makes no sense".
It is possible for Sandro to be the same character, but if he is then the total number of unlikely and implausible explanations needed are so vast, while if they are different characters none of the explanations are needed.
Corlagon wrote:
There's a few obvious flaws in your reasoning.
If there weren't there would be little point in posting.
Corlagon wrote:
First of all you're making the wild assumption that all the heroes who fought in the Wars of Enrothian Succession became incredibly powerful, world-famous superstars. Who says Sandro ever had a glorious career in Enroth? Who says "everyone knows he's a necromancer and a liche [sic]"? His faction suffered crushing defeat in two wars. What glory was there in that? You're just pulling the idea out of nowhere.
Given that overall command of all the numerous armies of all the cultures in every Heroes game is typically held time and time again over several years by the same collection of about a dozen individuals, it is inconceivable, utterly implausible that Sandro avoided becoming widely known about in Enroth given he was one of these key individuals.
It is even more implausible that both Gem and Crag Hack who are directly involved in fighting for or against Sandro's armies do not know that Sandro is a Necromancer and a Liche.
It is also utterly implausible that given a choice of a whole host of native Antagarich heroes who likely don't have a clue as to whom Sandro is, the very people who Sandro should choose to employ are the very people who happen to be most likely to know exactly who Sandro is, heroes fresh from Enroth. Given that if you are right Sandro is basically a spy at this point, what spy seeks out the people who know of his true identity?
Given how extraordinary it would be for all these three implausible things to be the case, then "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is at play here big time.
Crag Hack was also on the losing side of two wars and he is described in his bio as a 'decorated hero' in Enroth. Heroes in Heroes of Might and Magic lose all the time and they still retain their status as heroes and "market value".
Corlagon wrote:
Crag Hack and Gem both fought in those wars, and they didn't even know of one another's existence until halfway through Unholy Alliance. Nobody in Antagarich seemed to know who they were at first. That was the writers' intention. We're on the opposite side of the planet here. The storyline didn't somehow implode or "fall apart" as a result.
Extraordinary claims again Corlagon. Crag Hack and Gem were present in two previous games Heroes I and II, extremely unlikely that they do not know of each-other. That Crag Hack and Gem are not in contact with each-other until halfway through Unholy Alliance does not constitute even minor evidence that Gem and Crag Hack do not know who each-other are!
Is there some kind of Heroes of Might and Magic version of Facebook which means that the heroes can always keep in touch with each-other anywhere they go!
Corlagon wrote:
Secondly, yes, Sandro needed to rise to the top of the Deyjan hierarchy from scratch. So what? Every outsider has to properly prove themselves to become integrated into Deyjan society. In MM7's backstory, even Archibald Ironfist had to claw his way up through the ranks through the Challenge of Dominance. This isn't a convincing inconsistency. It's so minor and negligible that I'm almost left speechless.
Yes, I'm not suggesting that Sandro would automatically catapult himself to the top, but that if he were to arrive his past as a hero in Enroth would gain him a strong chance of becoming a Deyja hero automatically.
Mission 1 and 2 of Rise of the Necromancer thus become redundant if both Sandros are the same, because he has no apparent problem getting practically *to* Deyja in order to enlist Gem and then all the way to Krewlad on the other side of the continent. Gem is also redundant, because all the items he needs for the Cloak of the Necromancer (I think) are already in areas with a strong Deyjan military presence.
Why does he suddenly have to fight two wars in order to get into Deyja, when before he can travel the length of the whole continent incognito without apparent incident?
Corlagon wrote:
Thirdly - you're still determined to convince me there is a mention that Sandro became a Necromancer / Lich recently. There is not. Doesn't exist. Post it here if you find it someday. "Male Lich", says the manual, no humanity involved whatsoever. "he hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer" can be turned on its head, turned back to front and turned to the eastern seaboard but it still isn't going to say for sure when this "becoming a Necromancer" happened, no matter how you interpret it. It could mean yesterday, it could mean 60 years ago.
Corlagon, the manual is referring to a hero that is used in the game period, it says nothing about the time before Sandro is a hero, i.e. the first four missions. I have never definitely claimed to know when Sandro becomes a Liche, all I know is that since Ethric considers Necromancy to be a blight on his career it must have happened after he has ran way from Ethric's warlock school. Because Ethric considers Necromancy a 'blight on his career' he cannot have become a Liche when he is still being tutored by him.
What we know is that Ethric and Jeddite are tracking down Sandro and the motive to do this is to salvage Ethric's career from the 'taint' of having produced a Necromancer. Grammer about 'becoming' aside; the longer Sandro has been gone the less likely it is that Ethric would still be trying to track him down.
His motives are stated as being self-serving, he is trying to avoid the taint on his career. If Sandro actually ran away decades ago and has been a hero for the Necromancers during the Succession Wars and Price of Loyalty era, then Ethric career is already tainted irrevocably, because not only has a produced a Necromancer, but a high-profile one.
It is implausible that Ethric and Jeddite have spent 20+ years (decades) trying to track Sandro down and has not only failed to do so but continued trying, even though in that time Sandro has become so high-profile a Necromancer he cannot remove any 'taint' from his career and it is doubtful that even matters after so long.
And there's still also the (comparatively) small matter of the incident with Jabarkas daughter and this all happening several years ago (20+ is not several).
Corlagon wrote:
As for the stuff about Ethric lying through his teeth in that correspondence, what can I say to that? We could assume everybody in HoMM is a liar and that the narrative is all potentially wrong. We could pick and choose totally at random to suit any conclusion. When we move into the territory of claiming a character like Escaton or Tarnum or Ethric is lying/mistaken or a fact is wrong when there's no such implication to back this up, it's the argument that falls apart, not the storyline.
Yes all narrative is potentially wrong. Gem and Crag Hack are quite certain for instance that Sandro is a wizard or a wizard's apprentice. Yet you are claiming that Gem and Crag Hack are wrong? Ethric's motives for opposing Sandro are already laid down here.
It seems Ethric, my old master, has finally tracked me down. He hasn't been too happy about me becoming a Necromancer and wants to remove the blight from his career.
Ethric is already prepared to KILL in order to remove the taint of Sandro's becoming a Necromancer, so what makes so sure that he would not be prepared to LIE in order to do the same thing.
Ethric's intentions are to conceal information, that Sandro was studying Necromancy under *his* tutelage. Why does Ethric want to kill Sandro? To conceal precisely that information. To read your evidence.
I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and become a Necromancer!
Ethric has already failed in his initial plan. But fortunately for Ethric, Gem (who the message is addressed to as I vaguely remember) does not know about his failed attempt to eliminate Sandro and Ethric knows this is so.
Sandro has however been able to carry out a rather complicated plan to acquire two combo artifacts and all under Ethrics tutelage. This directly implicates Ethric, since he is responsible for his students misdeeds. It 'taints his career'. We already know he will start a war and thus KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE in order to protect his reputation as a teacher.
This false version of accounts establishes Ethric as virtuous (concealing the truth of negligent teacher) teacher victim of a malevolent student and by placing it so far in the past he cannot be held responsible for any of Sandros deeds for a long time. It is a plausible lie. While if Ethric is telling the truth the following implausible set of events must have happened.
Ethric and Jeddite have been searching for Sandro for 20+ years and have only just tracked him down; all despite Sandro being a high-profile public figure. He has not given up, despite the fact that there is no way that he can, after so long any longer conceal the fact that his student became a necromancer under his tutelage even were he to eliminate said student.
Is a lot less plausible than the following.
That a man willing to kill hundreds if not thousands of people in a war in order to conceal the shameful truth that Sandro learned necromancy under his tutelage, is prepared to lie to conceal it.
Corlagon wrote:
What is your point?
What is the ultimate profit if there are two Sandros walking around on Enroth. Don't tell me it makes the story more consistent or realistic. I don't think it's realistic in the slightest to presume it was ever NWC's intention for people to construe that there's two totally unrelated individuals named Sandro who started out as Warlocks, became Liches, roamed Enroth at some point, look the exact same and all the rest. That's so coincidental it's almost ludicrous.
It was explicitly NWC's intention to have Yog as a separate individual to the Yog in Heroes I. That's why it explicitly says that he studied magic under the wizards of Bracada ALL HIS LIFE!
The profit is that it eliminates a large number of implausibilities from the story and thus renders the story more realistic and believable. This post is too long already for me list them all down. To begin with appearance, the two Sandros do not look remotely the same, beyond being Liches.
Heroes III Sandro.
Heroes I/II Sandro
The former is has a far pointier and sharper face than the latter even taking into account the angles, Heroes I/II Sandro would have a heart-shaped face, whilst Heroes III Sandro would have a rather narrow and pointy face. And the coincidences are really only in name, occupation and both being Liches, their story is not the same.
Sandro Heroes I/II.
1. Completes his training as a Warlock and rises to become key leader of the Warlock faction (before Heroes I).
2. Becomes a Liche. (before Heroes I)
3. Fights for Lord Alamar and is defeated(Heroes I)
3. Abandons Warlockry and becomes a Necromancer (between Heroes I and II).
4. Fights in the Succession Wars (Heroes II).
5. Dies in Enroth (after Heroes II).
Sandro Heroes III.
1. Begins training to become a Warlock under the tutalage of Ethric (Heroes II).
2. Secretly begins to study Necromancy (Heroes II).
3. Hatches a plan to acquire artifacts of great power (Shadow of Death first 4 campaigns).
4. Becomes a Liche (between first four campaigns and Rise of Necromancer)
5. Runs away with artifacts and is tracked down by Ethric and Jeddite, defeats them and openly becomes a Necromancer before arriving in Deyja and rising to leadership of that nation before engaging on a plan to conquer the world. (rest of Shadow of Death).
6. Even though plans are defeated survives and remains a presence in Deyja (Armageddon's Blade era).
7. Escapes the Reckoning through portal. (the Reckoning)
8. Leads various undead factions in a number of wars (Heroes IV).
9. ????????????? (after Heroes IV).
10. Teaches Lucretia and Markal Necromancy (before Heroes V).
11. Is killed at Lorekeep (before Heroes V).
For one the Heroes III Sandro never becomes a Warlock.
Slayer, why did Captain Barbosa from Pirates of the Caribbean still eat apples, when he's undead?
Secret_Holder wrote:
Because it reminded him of something he was able to do once in the past.
I am no longer arguing that Sandro as a Liche cannot drink wine.
