Is Combat too good (Heroes IV)??

[ThunderTitan]

so it's ok, the horse is dead anyway... so why not beat on it...

[bot]

I wonder how many of you are still playing homm4? Last month I finished the last homm4 map I'd never played before(not one of cesialheavens, those ones I've played 4, 5 times, can't remember- never finished a map named LUNCH, because I play for fun, don't want to play with the walkthrough in front of me. I still like this game, of course, but my favourite mapmakers took a long, long break. Now I'm playing homm3, then maybe homm5, homm2 and, who knows, homm6... I will always be a big fan of this game.
This game is not dead, is just sleeping.

[Yurian Stonebow]

This Novice Heroes IV player thinks that the combat skill is about as good as it should be. Sure enough, there are overall better skills available in Heroes IV, but in terms of effectiviness, I'd definately place combat in the top three.
I tend to keep always two heroes within an army, a magic oriented hero and a might oriented hero. Combat helps to enhance the chances of survival for both heroes, but especially the "spellcaster's". Choosing the combat skill becomes even more important when there is a limited access to PoIs. (whether imposed by the map maker or your own policy towards the use of PoIs)

To summ up my opinion, combat skill in Heroes IV is reasonably well balanced and is of help in various situations the player encounters. Although I placed the skill in my top three, I still wish to note that there are other skills available in the fourth part of the heroic saga that may be overall of better use and not just depending on a specific situation.



Yurian

[Banedon]

You don't have to. I just wanted to clarify a hypothetical question (does full magic beat full might). The answer is obvious.
You may challenge it if you want to, but honestly, I would bet you think I'm right too.

I've read soem of your posts in the last years (after our big clashes) and it seems to me that you have gained some levels on your heroes4 skills :-)

ThunderTitan :-) (whetever, this whole forum is dead anyway - the games are too old)

Lol, it's not that simple. I've long since forgotten about the original statement, and it's open to a variety of different interpretations with different results, for example:

1. GM Magic heroes ONLY vs. GM Combat heroes ONLY (no creatures) - Combat wins.
2. GM Magic heroes only (as in no Tactician, no Basic Combat, etc) + creatures vs. GM Combat heroes + creatures, all creatures allowed - contestable, I'd expect Combat to be advantaged, eg. split two stacks of Faerie Dragons and assassinate both GM Life Priests with DD spells and / or GM Archery arrows. Or even better, split two stacks of Evil Sorceresses and the rest is history. Of course morale would throw big spanners into this.
3. GM Magic heroes + slight levels of alternative skills vs. GM Combat heroes + slight levels of alternative skills, all creatures allowed - still contestable, but Magic advantaged, if only because of the Crusader class giving the first cast. Could get complicated though if the Evil Sorceresses get off their Mass Cancellation. I'm quite certain some heroes will die, if only because of GM Archery -> whatshisname potion that destroys corpses.
4. GM Magic heroes only vs. GM Combat heroes only, only home creatures allowed - not sure. Would depend on the allegiances of both sides. Might's creatures are a bit, eh, unless they have a massive stack of Cyclopses capable of killing all heroes they hit in a hit. If it's Nature-based GM Combat then the Faerie Dragons would be automatic choice, once again going through the 'let's kill the GM Life heroes before they cast' process. Would result in a fight.
5. GM Magic heroes + slight levels of alternative skills vs. GM Combat heroes + slight levels of alternative skills, only home creatures allowed - Magic wins.

... but what's the point of arguing, I've long since stopped playing Heroes IV and can't even test it since it's not installed on my computer. Not to mention that the last time we did the mass Chaos casters fight it got really messy and hostile, plus I've got other things to concentrate on, plus we play (or used to play) different maps and so have different experiences, plus it doesn't change the fact that you were right, massed magic heroes are a deadly force.

So go play Heroes 5 and stop worrying about Heroes IV, OK?

[csarmi]

Lol, it's not that simple. I've long since forgotten about the original statement, and it's open to a variety of different interpretations with different results, for example:

1. GM Magic heroes ONLY vs. GM Combat heroes ONLY (no creatures) - Combat wins.

I seriously doubt that. With this you mean no creatures can be placed on the battlefield, right? So no summoning either. But exactly zero magic for the combat side. I think magic heroes still win (I just buff up one hero and use it as a weapon while I keep the rest alive... since you can't dispel my blesses and (thus) cant ever kill anything (even if you do, I'll just revive, you're bound to lose)

If you meant this with summoning allowed, it's an automatic win for magic side.

2. GM Magic heroes only (as in no Tactician, no Basic Combat, etc) + creatures vs. GM Combat heroes + creatures, all creatures allowed - contestable, I'd expect Combat to be advantaged, eg. split two stacks of Faerie Dragons and assassinate both GM Life Priests with DD spells and / or GM Archery arrows. Or even better, split two stacks of Evil Sorceresses and the rest is history. Of course morale would throw big spanners into this.

The point here is that you depend on creatures, the magic side don't. Hit'n'run the creatures the worst case. Against an army like that I would get crusaders (hm wait, can I?) and probably demonologists. Interesting question, but I think combat means: combat skill and the subskills, you obviously can't play the game without tacticians or pathfinders (you CAN play the game w/o combat heroes).

I also want to point out here, that the best strategy is to NEVER pick any combat skill (or any other skill) with your magic heroes, tacticians and pathfinders until you got what you wanted (GM whatever). And that is crucial! (else you might get messed up on skill selection choices)

3. GM Magic heroes + slight levels of alternative skills vs. GM Combat heroes + slight levels of alternative skills, all creatures allowed - still contestable, but Magic advantaged, if only because of the Crusader class giving the first cast. Could get complicated though if the Evil Sorceresses get off their Mass Cancellation. I'm quite certain some heroes will die, if only because of GM Archery -> whatshisname potion that destroys corpses.

Vial of Acid. GM Archery doesnt do enough damage to kill heroes. Not even GM melee does (if my calcs are correct, it does 2*(120-180) damage vs 300 hp on level 21, for example (assuming 50 attack and 20 defense and that heroes haven't been buffed up yet.

I'd say spellcasters in combat army should be definitely disallowed (it was might vs magic, right?). Still as the combat one I'd just bring a tactician, some other combat guys and enough cyclopes/t-birds and that makes it interesting.

4. GM Magic heroes only vs. GM Combat heroes only, only home creatures allowed - not sure. Would depend on the allegiances of both sides. Might's creatures are a bit, eh, unless they have a massive stack of Cyclopses capable of killing all heroes they hit in a hit. If it's Nature-based GM Combat then the Faerie Dragons would be automatic choice, once again going through the 'let's kill the GM Life heroes before they cast' process. Would result in a fight.

Barbarians are probably more tough - their creatures do double kills. If they get there. Depends a lot on the armies and the move order in 1st round(s).

About HeroesV - I can't play that, because they messed it up so bad. They made id 3d (in a very stupid way) which has two effects:

1) it hardly runs on my computer
2) even if it did, it would be a bit unplayable - the things 3d brings are really annoying (hard to click on creatures, can lookover artifacts, can't use the camera properly, etc)

[csarmi]

About pure magic heroes vs pure might heroes fight:

First of all, melee is useless, because the might heroes will never reach the magic heroes (quicksand).

Second, blur is available, so ranged damage will be halved as well.

This is what a might hero gets: (assume level21)

40 ranged attack
50 melee attack
70 defense all
48-72 base damage
300 hp

Magic heroes get:

16 melee attack
14 ranged attack
20 defense all
48-72 base damage
300hp

ALL buffed up:

Blur = 1/2 damage taken from ranged
Fortune = 2/3 damage taken (always lucky)
Stoneskin = 25% extra def
Bloodlust = 25% extra melee
First Strike
Cat reflexes (2 attacks)
Dragon strength = 100% extra hp + damage ( i think it stacks with giant str, but lets assume it doesnt)
Spiritual armor = 25% extra defense
Prayer: 25% extra hp/damage (life targets only)
Fervor: 25% extra damage + 1st/last to act every round

Amounts to:

1/3 damage taken from ranged
2/3 damage taken from melee

20*1.25*1.25 defense = 31 defense
16*1.25*1.25 = 25 melee attack, first strike, 2 strikes
96-144 damage (120-180 on life targets) + bless (so over max damage)
600 hitpoints (750 on life targets)

so:

might heroes will do:

(48-72)*(50/31)*(2/3) damage on melee, 2 times (about 50-75)
(48-62)*(40/31)*(1/3) damage on ranged, 2 times (about 20-30)

magic life hero (the one who is setup to attack, the mixed magician) will do
(25/70)*180 damage (about 64 damage), two times

oh: and they have terrain walk (free movement over quicksand)

I didnt include vampiric touch, didn't try to play the weapon hero as shooter (should be possible and then precision works too).

In the end, 2 or 3 heroes will charge ahead with regeneration setup and others keeping them alive - and finish off the barbarians (if they are archers, even better: cast nature ward) AND since they have dispel too, they can remove PoI everytime it's needed. The fight will take a while, but it will be easy.

[bot]

I agree with csarmi. A magic team will always defeat a might team if it is correctly developed.

[Banedon]

I seriously doubt that. With this you mean no creatures can be placed on the battlefield, right? So no summoning either. But exactly zero magic for the combat side. I think magic heroes still win (I just buff up one hero and use it as a weapon while I keep the rest alive... since you can't dispel my blesses and (thus) cant ever kill anything (even if you do, I'll just revive, you're bound to lose)

If you meant this with summoning allowed, it's an automatic win for magic side.

How are you going to keep the rest alive ... GM Archery -> Vial of Acid would kill all of them. Even if one GM Archer can't do it, two of them can, or three, or four - there are seven GM Barbarians on the field. And then it'll result in 7 GM Combat Barbarians vs. one uberbuffed hero, and the Barbarians should win that (only need to kill once, wherupon all the buffs are gone and it's gg).

I can't remember how many Mantii (or Phoenixes) a GM Summoner can summon, but since there is no Tactician on the field I do think all of them will die to GM Archery.

The point here is that you depend on creatures, the magic side don't. Hit'n'run the creatures the worst case. Against an army like that I would get crusaders (hm wait, can I?) and probably demonologists. Interesting question, but I think combat means: combat skill and the subskills, you obviously can't play the game without tacticians or pathfinders (you CAN play the game w/o combat heroes).

Lol hit and run

But this fight isn't based on a real game is it? Or the Combat side, with Tactics and Pathfinding vs. the Magic side with nothing, will build up a strong advantage.

I'd say spellcasters in combat army should be definitely disallowed (it was might vs magic, right?).

No idea. It's open to interpretation, and frankly I don't really care all that much anymore.

By the way I think you're missing items in your calculation of ranged attack, melee attack, etc, and I kinda doubt you'll be able to stay out of melee range until you're fully buffed up. Quicksand is great, yeah, but your heroes are going to die and you need as many heroes as you can to buff the Life Priest. How many can you spare to cast Quicksand?

Barbarians are probably more tough - their creatures do double kills. If they get there. Depends a lot on the armies and the move order in 1st round(s).

The Thunderbirds are going to get annihilated by Hypnotize ...

About HeroesV - I can't play that, because they messed it up so bad. They made id 3d (in a very stupid way) which has two effects:

1) it hardly runs on my computer
2) even if it did, it would be a bit unplayable - the things 3d brings are really annoying (hard to click on creatures, can lookover artifacts, can't use the camera properly, etc)

Maybe you need a more powerful computer

[Metathron]

Why are we assuming each and every spell is available to the spell casters?

[bot]

Absolutely right, the spels are important. If Divine Intervention is available, and Summon Devils also, might heroes team has absolutely no chance.
Otherwise, I really don't know. Magic heroes felt after 2 shots. On hand to hand attacks they will fall maybe after the first hit.
You should try this:
http://www.turboupload.com/files/get/sGOj3SCgS-/test1

[Melanchior]

Only the tactics skills are 'way too good' in HIV, I think

[csarmi]

I supposed neither side can use potions except for immortality (it's jut fair if you disable summoning, ANY combat skills and spells cast by barbs. btw i gave all barbs master life and the corresponding spells and it was a close fight, I actually hung it up after 30 turns or so. ALL the fight only 2 heroes died (1-1) on the magic side and both after like seven shots)

As for creatures: tactician not needed. I'll fight out a sample battle for you and tell you how it went.

Yup it's not based on real game. This topic is about COMBAT skill anyway not pathfinding or tactics (I'm sure they dont belong here )

I can spare 1-3 heroes/turn to cast quicksand and they fill the field fast. Played it, seen it. THAT's not the problem. The problem is with celever placement of heroes the might side will eventually get a few melee strikes in (not a lot: they have to be spread else magic just side puts QS everywhere and flies whereever its safe and then 10 turns of walking back)

You're right, I completely forgot about order spells. Well then with creatures it's interesting, probably magic win most of the time, but not evident fights.

About items: well I gave everyone sling that removes range penalty but I didnt stack heroes up on items too much because it'd be very hard to decide which one should be usable and which one shouldnt.

Plus the more items the tougher magic heroes become (if I give all heroes 20 more attack and defense - which is btw a quite correct estimate - i help the magic side a lot)

edit: tried the battle (summoning creatures allowed) and gave the barbarian side vial of acids too

They all had about 50 ranged attack (no range penalty), 65 melee attack and 95 defense.

My heroes had 25 defense.

There was nothing they could do. Tight formation and summons (especially summon phoenix) saved the day for the first turn (takes 2 barb to kill a phoenix stack, 3 if we count rebirth).

After the second turn it was over, because I managed to summon phoenix with dragon strength, blur, luck and guardian angel applied on them.

Once that was done, that stack was practically invincible (it covered my heroes from LoS btw).

550 hp, 1/3 damage from ranged and 35 defense made sure that SEVEN barbs couldnt kill that stack on ranged (counting guardian angel providing 6 extra lives) wit conseuctive attacks.

Then it was game over.

Barbarians came closer, quicksand and some more stacks made covers, heroes and creatures were eventualy buffed up to max (that wasn't even needed).

BTW 8 phoenixes (2 summons) with dragon str and such are scary. They gor cat reflexes too and were doing 270 damage TWICE vs the 300 hp barbarian heroes despite all that defense AND nature ward (all barbs received unnatural armor).

if you wanna try:

http://www.math.bme.hu/~csarmasz/heroes4

You can find the save before the fight and the map I made.[/url]