Heroes 3 fan-made balance patch (mod) updated!

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Nope, I absolutely didn't change anything about Conflux apart from Firebird/Phoenix and Pixie/Sprite growth rates.
And yes, "balancing" ( I use the term loosely as it's more, "tuning") Fight Value is a pain in the ass.

[Corbon]

Since a unit's speed does not affect fight value (lazy programming, no less), it will give you some freedom to tinker around with it. Among the changes in speed I made (does not include other changes and Conflux)

Marksman 4 -> 5
Monk 5 -> 6
Angel 12 -> 13
Harpy 6 -> 7
Manticore 7 -> 8
Red Dragon 11 -> 10
Basilisk 5 -> 6
Wyvern 7 -> 8
Hydra 5 -> 6
Chaos Hydra 7 -> 8
Imp 5 -> 6
Gog 4 -> 5
Devil 11 -> 12
Wight 5 -> 6
Wraith 7 -> 8
Vampire 6 -> 7
Bone Dragon 9 -> 10
Ghost Dragon 14 -> 15
Dwarf 3 -> 4
Silver Pegasus 12 -> 11
Green Dragon 10 -> 11
Goblin 5 -> 6
Orc 4 -> 5
Orc Chieftain 5 -> 6
Roc 7 -> 8
Behemoth 6 -> 7
Stone Gargoyle 6 -> 7
Stone Golem 3 -> 4
Archmage 7 -> 6
Genie 7 -> 8
Giant 7 -> 8

You might also look at the Harpy's damage of 1-4. I have upped it to 2-4 but 2-3 will also do, just so that they won't be that badly affected by Curse.

[Rainalkar]

Does anyone knows exactly what is Fight value, and what is the difference between it and AI value?

[Corbon]

The Fight Value determines the AI strength of a unit. For example, both Air and Storm Elementals have the same value, 324. Pitting 9 Airs against 8 Storms without the aid of a hero would result in an AI win for the Airs. In reality, this outcome would be extremely unlikely, since Storms are faster and shooters with no melee penalty, yet when creating the Fight Value, the programmers ignored such "side effects" (they even ignored a double shot ability for that matter). If an AI Hero is involved, the Hero's stats and abilities (Magic, Talents, Artifacts etc) might effect the result dramatically.

The AI value determines whether a roaming pack of monsters flees/offers to join or stands and fights. For example, by changing the AI value of an Azure Dragon stack to a very low number and changing the value of a Gremlin to a very high number will result in the Dragons fleeing (or offering to join) at the sight of a single Gremlin when engaged. It may have some other purposes which I am not aware of.

[Rainalkar]

So, the AI value is determined to compare armies' strengths when calculating joins. Thanks

[Storm-giant]

@Corbon: Thanks, I always wanted to know what exacly they do, thanks
By the way, in the HcTraits , the ''agresion'' value changes also if a monster will fllee or fight, or what it's does?(not only you, but if anyone knows it can answer it too )

[Rainalkar]

to corbon:

storms do have melee penalty

So, 9 airs will beat 8 storms in quick combat, or both quick and auto combat? I forgot are the outcomes the same?




Another thing considering AI value. This is how Diplomacy works:
_________________________________________________________
Unit mood // Likelihood of free join [%] // Likelihood of money join [%]
Compliant // 100 // -
Friendly // 40 // 0
Agressive // 10 // 0
Hostile // -20 // 0
Savage // 0 // -

Compliant and savage units will always join/fight, other factors disregarding.

If the units are not willing to join, or you refuse (don’t have enough) the join for money, you can still always fight them for experience.

No unit will join for money without the Diplomacy skill.

Units will join for their purchase price, it cannot be modified.

Map tile is irrelevant when checking join probability.

Condition // Free join probability increase [%]
Diplomacy skill // +10 per level
You have all units from same town type // +5
You have same unit type (upgrade doesn't matter)// +10 (excludes the below)
More then 50% of your army is composed of units of same type// +20 (excludes the above)

Condition // Money join probability increase [%]
Diplomacy skill // +10 per level

The best possible chances for aggressive units are 65% to join for free, 30% to join for money, and 5% not to join.
For hostile units it is 35% to join for free, 30% to join for money, and 35% not to join.
For friendly units it is 95% to join for free, 5% to join for money, and 0% not to join.

All units on random maps are set to hostile.
_________________________________________________

So, my point: what is the critical AI value that you must have in your troops combined to so that AI will join/flee? The two AI values are obviously compared in calculation, but do you need to have 100% AI value as wandering army or is it different? Is that 100% valid for all moods or does it vary depending on mood?




I'm sorry for being off, but I think is interesting stuff.

[Corbon]

to corbon:

storms do have melee penalty

So, 9 airs will beat 8 storms in quick combat, or both quick and auto combat? I forgot are the outcomes the same?

Psst, right click Storm Elementals You can also check it out by yourself by blessing them and comparing the damage of a ranged and a melee attack.

In quick combat, the 9 Airs would win, in auto combat it also depends on morale boosts but if none of the stacks are guided by a Hero, the Storms should win. Also, no melee penalty for a shooter does NOT affect the Fight Value as well (see Monks and Zealots, the tiny increase of 15 points (485 -> 500) is just the result of the Zealot's higher Def). Being able to hammer out an equation for the Fight Value would be invaluable for readjusting creature stats, obviously.

So, my point: what is the critical AI value that you must have in your troops combined to so that AI will join/flee? The two AI values are obviously compared in calculation, but do you need to have 100% AI value as wandering army or is it different? Is that 100% valid for all moods or does it vary depending on mood?

I don't know if you need 100% but you certainly need LESS AI Value for an offer to join than for a retreat, otherwise the "Infurated by your refusal, the monsters attack!" wouldn't appear, as a result of refusing them to join but not having a high enough value to make them trying to flee.

I'm sorry for being off, but I think is interesting stuff.

Yes it certainly is. And good to know about the aligned creatures, I was always wondering about the boost when you engage a creature type that's currently in your army or part of your faction.

[Corbon]

Hm, I just did an auto combat test with a Lv 1 Alchemist hero (1,1,2,2), set Gremlin to 99999 FV and Walking Dead to 1 FV, then engaged a stack of 20 Walking Dead with 1 Gremlin and lost. Tried again with 5 gremlins, lost again. Finally won with 20 Gremlins. The funny thing is that I should've easily lost the battle, my only magic was Shield and 20 Gremlins are obviously no match for 20 Walking Dead. So there's another factor than FV to determine the outcome of an auto combat.

[Rainalkar]

I know it says they have no melee penalty, but that is wrong. They do

In conclusion to AI value, it is of no use in predictions, for the exact calculation is unknown.

[Corbon]

I know it says they have no melee penalty, but that is wrong. They do

Just tested it, damn that sucks But what is a Firestorm?

[Rainalkar]

An unused spell.

[Melanchior]

Personally, I think the game would be balanced out with far less changes (creatures only, i agree with all the spell, hero (except Darkstorm) and skill changes).. here are my suggestions

Angel/Archangel speed decreased by 1
Gold Dragon attack/defense increased to 29/29
Naga Queen damage reduced to 20-30
Titan cost decreased by 500
Imp/Familiar cost halved
Magog attack does not affect friendly inferno units or fire immunes
Devil/Archdevil increased speed by 1, gold cost by 300/500 and damage to 40
Skeleton/Skeleton Warrior hit points decreased by 1
Goblin/Hobgoblin damage increased to 1-3
Orc Chieftan cost up to 200 and gets double throw
Ancient Behemoth hitpoints decreased to 250 and speed increased by 1
Wyvern/Wyvern Monarch cost decreased by 100
Hydra/Chaos Hydra speed increased by 1
Firebird/Phoenix production halved

[UndeadHalfOrc]

>>>Angel/Archangel speed decreased by 1
I believe they are meant to be the strongest and fastest, as they are the most expensive, their dwelling too.

>>>Gold Dragon attack/defense increased to 29/29
I might increase their stat by one point (attack OR defense) and see the result, but that's it. Your suggested FOUR point increase is overdoing it.

>>>Naga Queen damage reduced to 20-30
That is way too much of a nerf, they'll be vastly inferior to the dread knight (they are meant to be on-par with them)

>>>Titan cost decreased by 500
Trust me, I have made countless duels between good vs evil armies and for the bad guys to win, Archangels and Titans numbers always have to be reduced. They really are THAT good. H2 Titans had HALF the raw damage of H3 ones and were considered the 2nd strongest unit in the game


>>>Imp/Familiar cost halved
I already decreased their cost by 20 gold and increased their growth, that's enough.

>>>Magog attack does not affect friendly inferno units or fire immunes
I agree, but unfortunately I don't know how to change the game code...

>>>Devil/Archdevil increased speed by 1, gold cost by 300/500 and damage to 40
I already buffed their damage and HP slightly. They are fine as they are, especially considering all the buffs I gave to inferno units levels 1-3 and Fire Magic in general.

>>>Skeleton/Skeleton Warrior hit points decreased by 1
The problem on very large maps is not individual skeleton stats, but the necromancy skill itself. And with the formula as it is, lower skeleton HP means MORE skeletons resurrected. I'd have lowered necromancy skill were it not for its relatively balanced state on small and medium maps. I could make 2 separate patches, one for smaller maps and one for larger maps, though, but that's a hassle.


>>>Goblin/Hobgoblin damage increased to 1-3
They already have very high growth with my patch, and their good speed + Barbarians attack skill make sure they always do deliver good damage (usually for much more than Gnolls led by a Beastmaster)

>>>Orc Chieftan cost up to 200 and gets double throw
I don't know how to do that, and besides, why make them Grand Elves clones (which is exactly what this would make them into) ? I prefer diversity among factions.

>>>Ancient Behemoth hitpoints decreased to 250 and speed increased by 1

No, they need their HP to compensate for their abysmal defense.
And I thought only the regular behemoths needed a speed increase so I did that. If you bring your behemoths to their frontline too soon anyway they'll die before your ogres can help them out.

>>>Wyvern/Wyvern Monarch cost decreased by 100
I already gave multiple positive changes to this unit and its dwelling, read my notes...

>>>Hydra/Chaos Hydra speed increased by 1
I already gave multiple positive changes to this unit, read my notes...
they are meant to be a slow, but powerful unit and have been that way since Heroes 1 & 2! (In which they were EXTREMELY slow)


>>>Firebird/Phoenix production halved
Already done that, read notes


Thanks for your input.

[Yurian Stonebow]

"And I thought only the regular behemoths needed a speed increase so I did that."

I was among those who suggested this Well, I did also suggest +1 speed to Ancient Behemoths as well but in the end, after changing thoughts with UHO, I came to realize that they didn't really need it. The regular Behemoths do, and I'm glad UHO's updated personal H3 patch introduces this change.




Yurian

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Yeah, and thanks again for that Yurian.

[Toge]

This patch is good because the changes are moderate, unlike that WoG thing. *sigh*
Hey, have you tested if that Learning secondary skill works properly? I took it for my main hero, but didn't notice as substantial difference as documented.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Thanks, glad you enjoy it.

Yes, every change I did to the secondary skills had to be thoroughly tested. Learning in particular was tested with the experience given by treasure chests because you can visually see that it gives more than the usual 500 exp/1000 exp/1500 exp, and they were increased by my own percentages accordingly.

This afternoon I tried changing Slayer bonus attack skill from 8 to 12, but with testing it became apparent that those values in the sptraits.txt file are not used at all for that spell, so cannot be changed normally.

[Yurian Stonebow]

You're welcome, UHO. I'll gladly help whenever I can. We owe it all to the game, the masterpiece, and its lasting legacy. I'm not a programmer, but I think I have a good "hunch" about H3's remaining balance issues which means that you'll hear more from me if I have something more to comment on this topic.



Yurian

[Toge]

What are the balance issues? If memory serves me correctly, Heroes II manual actually said that the Warlock, Wizard and Necropolis castles were meant for large maps and rest of the factions had intentionally easier building dependencies to favor aggressive expansion and smaller map dominance. I don't know how it goes in Heroes III. Castle seems to be all-around effective and powerful faction. Stronghold suffered from ridiculous ore and wood demands. Inferno's specialties were hampered when Magog's fireball hits own troops and bad luck from Devils isn't coded to the game. Is it possible to increase the bonus to -2 luck to offset this?