Fog of War where are you?

[chaosgorgon]

Inf, man dont sneak with arguments, the tipical resourse for that is the classic "u missunderstand me", lol, is clear that u main argument is the RTS/TBS stuff

[Infiltrator]

Francesco, to me FoW in heroes would just add tedium, frankly it would be very easy to keep it open - sending lots of level one heroes around and keeping it "lit", but nival forsaw this and didn't implement it. Perhaps it's fun to you but sending mini heroes around so I can see everything I already scouted certanly isn't any fun to me.

chaos, you are really cracking me up with your nonsense, I don't know who you are or why you are holding a grudge against me, take a chill pill and go do something productive for a change.

[Psychobabble]

Haven't you heard? Anything that was in Heroes 4 but not 3 is the work of teh devil and must be kept out of Heroes 5!

I think that's almost there, but not quite. I think the devs have simply ignored Heroes IV. To me it looks like they haven't played the two games, said "this is good from this one and this is bad" and then made a bona fide attempt to make a sequel which takes the best bits from all past games and make a new and better one. They've simply picked up Heroes 3 gone "hey, we can do pretty pictures for this game" and gone on from there. There's dozens of examples from the big things that most players can agree were good in H4 (like caravans,* not having to manually collect resources from sawmills etc. and fog of war) to little things or more controversial things, but in every point of "feature conflict" between H3 and H4 it seems to me that they've gone with H3.

* I know they're planned for the final release, but I think it's very telling that such an obviously good feature from H4 was initially overlooked.

sending lots of level one heroes around and keeping it "lit", but nival forsaw this and didn't implement it. Perhaps it's fun to you but sending mini heroes around so I can see everything I already scouted certanly isn't any fun to me.

There's a very real limit to this which is that you can only have a certain number of heroes on the adventure map (is it still 8?). Also you're limited by funds because that idea gets expensive, and you still miss important things even after doing that. Anyway, this adds strategy to the game. You have to post scouts to protect yourself from surprise attacks and your opponent gets rewarded for finding out of the way paths to get tyou you because they might then avoid your scouts.

As many others have pointed out, fog of war is bog-standard in this sort of games (and has been for the better part of a decade) for good reason - it just makes sense.

[chaosgorgon]

ok, inf, calm down man

maybe u have a lot of fear from H4 and all that, but the problem in H4 fow was the poor line sight radius, only that, and of course some stupid sight towers in which u only saw the fow, put to the flagable buidings a decent sight and u have a nive fow system, and of course should be optional

[Infiltrator]

There's a very real limit to this which is that you can only have a certain number of heroes on the adventure map (is it still 8?). Also you're limited by funds because that idea gets expensive, and you still miss important things even after doing that. Anyway, this adds strategy to the game. You have to post scouts to protect yourself from surprise attacks and your opponent gets rewarded for finding out of the way paths to get tyou you because they might then avoid your scouts.

As many others have pointed out, fog of war is bog-standard in this sort of games (and has been for the better part of a decade) for good reason - it just makes sense.

You now have a limit, true, but I would still do it later when cash usually is not a problem. I don't know what important things I might miss with that approach , that I otherwise wouldn't. You might call it strategy but in a game where you can't just send your assassin to stand alone and scout and where, as you said, there is a limit of heroes that you can buy to scout, I call it tedium. You'd hate it yourself since you probably were playing H4 and gotten used to leave a peasant or imp sitting around, but it would hit you sooner or later. Even though nival did some things that I dislike about Heroes 5, I am really glad they did the FoW as it was before H4.

chaos, I'm perfectly calm opposed to you, from now on I'm just going to ignore your posts so don't even bother. Thanks.

[DaemianLucifer]

You now have a limit, true, but I would still do it later when cash usually is not a problem. I don't know what important things I might miss with that approach , that I otherwise wouldn't. You might call it strategy but in a game where you can't just send your assassin to stand alone and scout and where, as you said, there is a limit of heroes that you can buy to scout, I call it tedium. You'd hate it yourself since you probably were playing H4 and gotten used to leave a peasant or imp sitting around, but it would hit you sooner or later. Even though nival did some things that I dislike about Heroes 5, I am really glad they did the FoW as it was before H4.

Im used to HIV,yet I almost never have enough armies to leave some as scouts.Maybe one protector at a choke point,and that is all.And in HIV you have no need for windmill and dwelings collectors.So I guess in HV,you would barely have enoguh armies for this(which is good,in a way).Without FoW,you just need to send one scout to each of the enemys cities,and then enjoy watching him develop each turn.Plus,whats the point of tracks without FoW?

[chaosgorgon]

u had hated ur self in H3 wasting time with ur hero only to know how is the map, instead in H4 u cand send scouts to know what to do next whit ur hero

again the reason of that "leave a peasant or imp sitting around, but it would hit you sooner or later", was the LoS of the buildings nothing more, for example u dont have such problem in AoW2 in which u dont need scouting monsters -only in the early game of course-

knowing what is doing ur enemy all the time just kills the fun, and that is obvious with the implementation of fow in other games

analyse, inf, analyse, maybe the idea wasnt bad, but bad implemented, analyse man

[Infiltrator]

Im used to HIV,yet I almost never have enough armies to leave some as scouts.Maybe one protector at a choke point,and that is all.And in HIV you have no need for windmill and dwelings collectors.So I guess in HV,you would barely have enoguh armies for this(which is good,in a way).Without FoW,you just need to send one scout to each of the enemys cities,and then enjoy watching him develop each turn.Plus,whats the point of tracks without FoW?

Well you can't send a scout into an enemy base if chokes are guarded by neutrals (and they are on 90% of the H3 maps, so I expect the same in H5) so you will be able to see the enemy only when you are strong enough to confront him, most of the time. Tracks are, as of right now, just a cosmetic feature, at least I have never noticed enemy traces go into the fog..

[conjurer]

Not all features from heroes IV must be taken out, just because they were poorly implemented that doesn't mean they lacked substance. I am in favor of fog of war, not just because all strategy respectable games have it, but because it's vital to the gameplay and strategy. If you know everything your enemy does than where is the strategy, where is the element of surprise... If both players know most info about eachother than that will diminish the imprevisibity of the game, it will increase gaming time. This might give a player that has already "seen" the map an advantage (like heroes 3 cartographer=imbalance), he will know much about his enemy and be able to do sneak attacks or backdoor attack at castle without any risk; I think that was a major flaw in Heroes 3, that is no fog of war. Remember in Heroes V creatures don't wander alone, so no fear for hunting them down all over the map... I will try to find more arguments on this matter and hope to gain your support and of course Nival's, for without fog of war the game will have a big flaw in gameplay and in overall strategy...

[LordHoborgXVII]

Of course there have been good TBS games without fog of war, such as the Disciples series, but I have to agree that in the case of Heroes, fog of waris necessary to provide an additional strategic layer to the game. Heroes III, for instance, lacked fog of war and gameplay was therefore completely dependent on recruiting and maneuvering forces around the map, without any sort of emphasis on stealth or scouting involved. As mentioned, familiartiy with the map was vital becase a player who knew the map did not have to waste time exploring. The advantages of fog of war in Heroes IV were certainly a step forward, but like all the other good ideas in that game, it was too little to compete with the game's obvious flaws. If only Heroes III had had fog of war, it would at least be more about real strategy and less concerned with pack-muling and chaining troops around. As a result, having fog of war in H5 would certainly remedy some of the ills it has inherited from H3.

[Gljivko a.k.a Vortex]

Of course there have been good TBS games without fog of war, such as the Disciples series,

My point exactly, we don't need FoW. If they implement the idea from Disciples it could be successful. And that is: in Disciples you couldn't see what units the enemy hero was carrying until you send a spy to investigate. In Heroes V I was thinking of a better way to do this. You could sacrifice one lvl 1 units (lets say a gremlin), spy information could be instant at the cost of that unit, but you will see only what was one hero carrying, so for more heroes you will need more units, and with higher hero levels you will need to use higher lvl units. Just my thought
Or you could forget about sending spies, and use good old Visions spell (or whatever name it will have in H5 if it ever come).

[Akul]

What an Irony!!!
HOMM3 fans attack H4 with "It is realistic, but it lost tactics." And FOW IS tactical. And realistical too.
It seems to me as if you hate FOW only so you can spit on H4. Why do all human like spiting on something or someone, I'll never know.

[Xanatus Sirloin]

Im keen for FoW... its better for both multiplayer and for single player as the enemy and youself never quite know where the other is it means you actually have to leave creatures to guard instead of waiting till you see a hero with in a couple of days walk and then buying... FoW makes a more enjoyable game all round.

[theGryphon]

I agree with Sauron and Xanatus that FOW adds to the strategy and enjoyment of the game, and feels more realistic. Along with the caravan and continuous creature growth, I will really miss FOW!
Although I'm pretty happy with what I see until now, I consider these three items a backwards step for UBI. In fact, I really wonder why they actually insisted to keep these from H3. They have nothing to do with why H4 has been a "failure" (which I don't think it is, but this is not the place to talk about it. Still, let me sey this: along with heroes-in-battle, they are the innovations of HIV with lots of potential which were not tuned up appropriately, causing the game to be a failure for many, rather than a true success. Said this, I will never leave HIV aside: Go Equilibris! )
Again, I really wonder if FOW (or caravan) interfered with other things in the game engine and caused problems. Otherwise, it fells so nonsense.

[trailMix]

Are you guys sure the fog of war is gone? From the look of the screen shot at gamespot, I say the fog of war is there. Check out screen shot #34 at http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/her ... e=previews

[I_Dun_Hat3_CT]

Are you guys sure the fog of war is gone? From the look of the screen shot at gamespot, I say the fog of war is there. Check out screen shot #34 at http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/her ... e=previews

Nah, it is not FoW. Just black mask.

Anyway with FoW: More fear inducing stratedgy gaming. However in takes away the need for quick exploration tactics to scout for enemies territory.[ESP in the map generated games]

Without FoW: Increase the need for quick exploration. Also saves your heart from over pumping

[FantoMaxJM]

Fog of War where are you?

In Warlords IV´s newest patch I guess..