H3: Fav Lvl2 critter.

[Bandobras Took]

No matter the faction, there is no immuable modus operandi that will ever guarantee you victory. A human player is still required to play the game, as opposed to automatons.

Sitations differ, They also can change. Luck is a factor, as well as the performence of the opposition. If it wasn't the case, Nucleon would not play this game.

There may be no one strategy to guarantee victory, but there are several to guarantee defeat. As the difficulty level goes up, your options go down.

How does focusing on Griffins ensure adaptability? If you're sitting firmly in the Griffin camp at the cost of Marksmen (which, as I understand it, has been your entire argument . . . correct me if I'm wrong), are you being any more flexible?

[Nucleon]

How does focusing on Griffins ensure adaptability? If you're sitting firmly in the Griffin camp at the cost of Marksmen (which, as I understand it, has been your entire argument . . . correct me if I'm wrong), are you being any more flexible?

Nucleon does not favor Griffins over Marksmen... He would have both in His armies.

And, not having Griffins actually reduce your options; how can their absence would makes you more flexible in any way? What a strange thought.

[Pol]

The main value of a Turn-Based Strategy game isn't strategy?

I'm not going to contradict. Strategies...

The problem is that some people reject to relearning them in new occassion, claiming that some of them are not important to be bothered about. That's may be, until...

...strategy/mathematic view is about the only way we're going to get anywhere.

Depend, human, depend how strict and on what you are going to focus.

Known problem, when you are too near to the subject, you will loose the overall view. You need to oscillating forth and back. In other way you will become too narrow-minded. Eh, set in stone?

Wake up, here is not final strategy. Map makers always determine the conditions, deadly true in WoG though.

OK, I know, that you already known all of that, but I couldn'r resist to these "word balance" games.

[Pol]

How does focusing on Griffins ensure adaptability? If you're sitting firmly in the Griffin camp at the cost of Marksmen (which, as I understand it, has been your entire argument . . . correct me if I'm wrong), are you being any more flexible?

With Tactics (or Haste or Sir Mulich) you may prevent opposing ranged stacks -- surrounding your Castle -- from ranged duels.

This is going to be funny, well, for change I will be silent for a while... trying to be more constructive next time.

[csarmi]

And, not having Griffins actually reduce your options; how can their absence would makes you more flexible in any way? What a strange thought.

Building griffins is a waste of time and money and that will limit your strategies, trust me. Cause time and money are very important in the game. And when your opponent comes over week 3/4 with armies you could never dream of and kill your main hero and finish your game, you aren't flexible anymore.

[Nucleon]

Building griffins is a waste of time and money and that will limit your strategies, trust me. Cause time and money are very important in the game. And when your opponent comes over week 3/4 with armies you could never dream of and kill your main hero and finish your game, you aren't flexible anymore.

Nucleon does not understand you guys. Here you are, building Portals of Glory and Training Grounds on week two, buying all production before even erecting the Capital, making ressources appear out of nowhere, yet flinching about 3 buildings whose total cost is 3000 gold and 10 ore.



You know what csarmi? Your wisdom is wasted on Nucleon.

[csarmi]

You might be making mistakes and that's what causes you problems. A few common ones include:

- taking XP from any chest
- refraining from doing early fights (crypts, stores, monsters guarding gold) due to lack of skill or courage
- buying/building things you shouldn't be (you only want to buy your key troops, you can't waste time/money on useless buildings)
- buying too few heroes (more heroes cover a bigger area)
- not chaining enough

etc...

[Vulcanic]

Voted LIzards

Minor damage but major defense

[Banedon]

If I claim something to be true, you can bet on it. I am seldom wrong. So yes, that's a csarmi-fact. Set in stone.

I should say you are very seldom wrong in the context that you think in. One we expand on the topic (like the use of "always" and "every" ) you can be wrong.

Actually, you are much more likely to lose Lizard Warriors in your fights, because they are slower and they lack some firepower (so the enemy might close up on you).

Not exactly. Fortress heroes have excellent defense, and their walkers are very sturdy. Combine these two strengths with the First Aid Tent (if present) and Fortress can also fight battles with zero losses. It's just that it's more difficult.

Arch Angels kill Ancien Behemoths in an equal fight (assuming they are not supported by heroes, if you give both heroes 10 attack and 10 defense, for example, things change drastically). If you put up 1 archangel vs 1 AB (and 0/0 bonus), that's an interesting fight with an amazing strategy required and some years ago I calculated the winning chances. AA came out better I believe. But I am not sure.

We should assume neither uses the "Defend" button and both sides continuously attack. The Archangels lose.

I don't think it's a good idea to go for Crusaders, but Wimfrits is right of course.

wimfrits is also seldom wrong

You should be starting the second week with the stable bonus given to most of your heroes (if no outside stable, build it day 8, if outside stable is available, go for cavaliers asap! - i would go for them over crusaders anyways, 2 champions week one, 6 champions week 2 are enough to do most of the fights - here you go with your powerstack)

I would like to see your build. It promises to be interesting.

And btw, having one angel in the beginning is a game-deciding factor because it enables you to do some key fights you couldn't imagine without it. So the difference of one angel is actually MORE significant against the map (than in the endfight).

If it's one Angel versus zero, then yes, this is a very crucial factor. If it's having two Angels versus one, then it isn't. That was my point.

I might have argued in favor of inferno, but I surely mentioned that conflux is unstoppable (and so is Necropolis).

I vividly remember how you went "If Conflux charges with Phoenix intiative, then (Inferno wins)" and "Believe me. I was on the Conflux side."

And sorry, but on AB vs AA part, I have to agree with Nucleon completely. You shouldn't compare them, because they play a completely different role in endfights. What he fails to see is, however, that Marksmen and LW's should be compared by their damage dealing ability for this reason.

Why? In the endfight both the Ancient Behemoth's and Archangel's duty is to deal damage. They have the same role. How is this different?

***************

No. no; Nucleon means severe maps. He agrees, however, that his is not your average game, but He has seen a couple of them. The wood and ore silo can ensure survavibility almost in a vaccum, something the other silos can't provide.

It is precisely in severe maps that Gold is hard to come by, and it is in exactly this same situation that it is vital to save the 5,000 gold. The only times when the Resource Silo is necessary early is in a remarkably lopsided map where Gold is abundant but Wood and Ore aren't.

Comments like these makes Nucleon wonders how does people play their Griffins; Nucleon think they are excellent in game starts! It is a two-hex creature, well-suited to protection because of that and the extra retaliation if you fight grunts, and they have high speed and decent survival chances if you confront shooters (from which they won't take much damage in melee).

And what, pray tell, are you protecting? It is the Marksmen, right?

If you're protecting the Marksmen with your Griffins, then the key unit to Castle is still the Marksmen. I don't see your point.

Two things with shooters; First, if you have only one stack that will be affacted by bad morale, it will be your shooters, for some reason Nucleon cannot fathom. Second, the shooter strategy, while efficient and fool-proof, is also predictible.

I do not experience the first; as for the second, being predictable doesn't mean it is easy to counter. Go up in an endfight against a Fortress player and you will instantly expect him to Teleport his Mighty Gorgons in your level 7's face. The question is: what are you going to do about it?

There's another thing; That feeling that the game's difficulty will affect the creature themselves; It doesn't. Once you've got the creature, you use it exactly as you would in any difficulty. There is no reason to play less efficiently in lower difficulties.

Or put it another way. Game difficulty does not affect creatures themselves, but it affects their value. There is no reason to play less efficiently in lower difficulties, but there is no need to play with hypervigilance, either.

Ranged creature have a free ride up until foot units with speeds 7+ and town sieges are part of regular play. If what you advance was true, Gremlin Masters would last until the final battle.

By which time you should have your own. Master Gremlins may not appear in the final battle because though they're ranged, they're also pathetic - something Marksmen aren't.

Nucleon disgrees; It is like comparing Evil Eyes and Griffins, both 3rd level creatures that are "existing to slaughter their opponents" (do you know a creature whose job isn't that anyway?).

Of course. Thunderbirds - existing to block Ranged stacks and deal damage. Dendroids - existing to bind deadly stacks and absorb damage. Mighty Gorgons - existing to attack level 7 stacks. Evil Eyes - existing as a typical ranged stack. Griffins - existing as a sweeper unit.

Optimistic, almost to the point of being jovialistic. You'll need that: Your second week is more costly still. Chances are your construction scheme will be severly delayed in most Expert difficulty maps, meaning insured defeat.

Explain how I reached Green Dragons by day 7, week 2 in All For One.

Are you sure that this exemple is set in Expert difficulty? That is a scheme that ressemble Nucleon's first tries at the game.

Yes, it is. Extra heroes = expanding in more directions.

With the patches comes creature dwellings that are assorted with a chosen town on MP maps. As for RPG maps, it is an even truer thing; Most of the time, nearby dwellings are matched with your town.

Then the strategy is clear. Recruit the units that you require (I would take the Archers at once, for example) but not those that you don't (like Griffins - though they can be recruited, I don't have sufficient numbers to put them to good use).

And, not having Griffins actually reduce your options; how can their absence would makes you more flexible in any way? What a strange thought.

By not having Griffins, I may have Angels or Champions (or at least Zealots). That is undoubtedly more flexible.

Nucleon does not understand you guys. Here you are, building Portals of Glory and Training Grounds on week two, buying all production before even erecting the Capital, making ressources appear out of nowhere, yet flinching about 3 buildings whose total cost is 3000 gold and 10 ore.

The problem is not on resources in this case, it's on time. With Griffins, you take 3 buildings - 3 turns. In those same 3 turns a player can reach Champions! Assuming infinite resources on both sides, would you honestly still build Griffins?

Next you'll argue about "infinite resources". Well, in a real game, no one will have infinite resources, but they tend to have more than sufficient. Also, if I find myself in a situation where building Angels is completely impossible, I would go for Crusaders and still take the initiative over you (you take 2 turns here, during which time I would be out and conquering).

[Nucleon]

It is precisely in severe maps that Gold is hard to come by, and it is in exactly this same situation that it is vital to save the 5,000 gold. The only times when the Resource Silo is necessary early is in a remarkably lopsided map where Gold is abundant but Wood and Ore aren't.

Money, you can always produce; That's what towns do.

And what, pray tell, are you protecting? It is the Marksmen, right?

If you're protecting the Marksmen with your Griffins, then the key unit to Castle is still the Marksmen. I don't see your point.

Yes, sure, always, moreso at game start, like He does with every town's beginning shooters. Yet still they die as the game becomes more competitive.

I do not experience the first;

as for the second, being predictable doesn't mean it is easy to counter. Go up in an endfight against a Fortress player and you will instantly expect him to Teleport his Mighty Gorgons in your level 7's face. The question is: what are you going to do about it?

Predictable is, by definition, easier to counter.

By which time you should have your own. Master Gremlins may not appear in the final battle because though they're ranged, they're also pathetic - something Marksmen aren't.

They die almost at the same rate, thought. Both are often targeted by the ennemy, for good reason, be it AI or living.

Of course. Thunderbirds - existing to block Ranged stacks and deal damage. Dendroids - existing to bind deadly stacks and absorb damage. Mighty Gorgons - existing to attack level 7 stacks. Evil Eyes - existing as a typical ranged stack. Griffins - existing as a sweeper unit.

All of them exist to kill the other side. Meaning that is too broad a definition. Now that being said, yes, units accomplish different task, hence the irrelevance of an Archangel/A-Behemoth fight or a Griffin/Evil eyes, when compared to a Marksmen/Lizard Warrior or a Horned Demons/Crusader one, where their respective role is similar.

Explain how I reached Green Dragons by day 7, week 2 in All For One.

Easy; By playing on a lower difficulty. What does Nucleon wins?

The problem is not on resources in this case, it's on time. With Griffins, you take 3 buildings - 3 turns. In those same 3 turns a player can reach Champions! Assuming infinite resources on both sides, would you honestly still build Griffins?

Nucleon demonstrated, with hard numbers, the task that awaits you if you stick with your scheme, and He was being very conservative. With an additional Hero and some swordsmen, you have a 12000+ gold deficit at day seven, as a costier second week begins, with a production to buy at day eight, and no Town Hall yet! In the unlikely possibility that you do find 12000 golds on the map in the first week, you will have to repeat this feat and more if you are to follow your plan. And on week two, loose ressources are getting scarce.

(Your heroes will also be spell-less for the whole duration of the first week, also, which negate the possibility to effectively work with Clerics, by the way. Constructing the Marketplace in the second Week also nullifies your trading options)

And yet you flinch for 3000 golds and 10 ore to quickly fully develop your first fast creature. Yes, it takes three days, but these days can be taken when ressources for others builds are scarce, as they are in harmony with the heavier wood expenditure that Castle requires.

In short, your method, albeit excellent on average difficulty, encompasses too many "ifs" in Expert. And Nucleon does not like to rely on "ifs". Nucleon likes to rely on concrete assets.

Then the strategy is clear. Recruit the units that you require (I would take the Archers at once, for example) but not those that you don't (like Griffins - though they can be recruited, I don't have sufficient numbers to put them to good use).

Nucleon prefer to recruit as many troops as his funds permit; many creatures is good; It helps you winning fights with fewer losses, and can intimidate neutrals to join you! You are much more prepared for a variety of threats with Pikemen, Marksmen and Griffins than with Pikemen and Maksmen alone.

By not having Griffins, I may have Angels or Champions (or at least Zealots). That is undoubtedly more flexible.

If can afford buying them while respecting your building schedule, maybe. You under-estimate the importance of money in the early game, as astounding as it may sounds. In some cases, the ennemy may take your town with all these goodies inside the walls, un-recruited.

No gold = no flexibility, at all.

Next you'll argue about "infinite resources".

Indeed!

Well, in a real game, no one will have infinite resources, but they tend to have more than sufficient.

Nucleon tends to disagree concerning the word "real". On certains map, mostly tournament ones, you will.

On all the others... you won't! As a loose rule of thumb, the larger the map, the scarcier the ressources and treasure chests.

Also, if I find myself in a situation where building Angels is completely impossible, I would go for Crusaders and still take the initiative over you (you take 2 turns here, during which time I would be out and conquering).

It is a certitude that Nucleon's army would include all the Crusaders you could afford in that week. Having them 2 days in advance isn't going to be of a noticeable difference.

If the map is indeed generous enough, maybe Nucleon will consider a more ambitious development faster (still quite different from yours, though), but He prefers to assume that not everything will be automatically honky-dory, because being delayed in an over-ambitious development will get you killed much more faster than buying Griffins!

[Banedon]

Money, you can always produce; That's what towns do.

Wood and Ore you can always produce. That's what mines are for.

You don't appear to get it. A single Sawmill produces 2 Wood a day, more than a Resource Silo. A single Capitol produces 4,000 Gold a day, less than the price for a Resource Silo.

Yes, sure, always, moreso at game start, like He does with every town's beginning shooters. Yet still they die as the game becomes more competitive.

So exactly what is your point? Griffins die too as the game becomes more competitive.

Predictable is, by definition, easier to counter.

Predictable (adj) -

A: That can be predicted, eg. predictable behaviour, results, weather.
B: (of a person) behaving in a way that can be predicted, eg. I knew you'd say that - you're so predictable!

I don't see what you mean. The Fortress strategy of Mighty Gorgon teleporting is completely predictable, yet by no means easy to counter.

They die almost at the same rate, thought. Both are often targeted by the ennemy, for good reason, be it AI or living.

I have shown you what to do against normal walkers. wimfrits and csarmi have shown you what to do against fast flyers. There is no recourse for Lightning Bolt hit-and-runs, and neither is there one for Castle sieges, but aside from those situations there should be very little wear-and-tear on Marksmen.

All of them exist to kill the other side. Meaning that is too broad a definition. Now that being said, yes, units accomplish different task, hence the irrelevance of an Archangel/A-Behemoth fight or a Griffin/Evil eyes, when compared to a Marksmen/Lizard Warrior or a Horned Demons/Crusader one, where their respective role is similar.

I don't get what you mean at all. Archangels and Ancient Behemoths, by your same post, exist to kill the other side. Why then is it irrelevant, if a Marksmen / Lizard Warrior fight isn't?

Anyway, I must stress that sending creatures 1v1 is irrelevant to this discussion, or it would be conclusively proved that Ancient Behemoths are stronger than Archangels.

Easy; By playing on a lower difficulty. What does Nucleon wins?

I did it that at Hard, I'll admit. But the difference between Hard and Expert is a mere 5,000 gold, and assure you I had more than enough resources to compensate. That 5,000 gold will be of concern though in the earlier parts - but again I believe I could have compensated.

Nucleon demonstrated, with hard numbers, the task that awaits you if you stick with your scheme, and He was being very conservative. With an additional Hero and some swordsmen, you have a 12000+ gold deficit at day seven, as a costier second week begins, with a production to buy at day eight, and no Town Hall yet! In the unlikely possibility that you do find 12000 golds on the map in the first week, you will have to repeat this feat and more if you are to follow your plan. And on week two, loose ressources are getting scarce.

You have not proved anything. I won't buy Swordsmen at all if they are not needed (I tend never to buy unupgraded creatures anyway). Finding 12,000 gold on the map in the first week is a challenge, but not an impossible one - this can be done very simply on All For One, I might add. And you did not appear to note that I built the Town Hall on day 1.

By Week 2, I can reasonably expect to have conquered extra towns, be it from neutrals or from the AI (in fact, this is quite possible in week 1). The problem of resources starts to diminish.

(Your heroes will also be spell-less for the whole duration of the first week, also, which negate the possibility to effectively work with Clerics, by the way. Constructing the Marketplace in the second Week also nullifies your trading options)

Not having spells is a handicap, but it can and will be nullified. All the examples wimfrits, csarmi and I mentioned can be done without spells. Only come the harder fights - in Week 2 - do spells gain in prominence. Completing the week 1 build isn't that hard, and the Marketplace is not necessary then. It's in week 2 that trading occurs.

And yet you flinch for 3000 golds and 10 ore to quickly fully develop your first fast creature. Yes, it takes three days, but these days can be taken when ressources for others builds are scarce, as they are in harmony with the heavier wood expenditure that Castle requires.

If the map is completely barren and no resources of any kind are available, I would still not get Royal Griffins. Crusaders more than suffice. And I assure you I don't flinch over the resource cost, it's the time I'm flinching over.

In short, your method, albeit excellent on average difficulty, encompasses too many "ifs" in Expert. And Nucleon does not like to rely on "ifs". Nucleon likes to rely on concrete assets.

Once again you underestimate the powers of resource gathering. This method suffices on Expert. It's on Impossible where it's impossible.

Nucleon prefer to recruit as many troops as his funds permit; many creatures is good; It helps you winning fights with fewer losses, and can intimidate neutrals to join you! You are much more prepared for a variety of threats with Pikemen, Marksmen and Griffins than with Pikemen and Maksmen alone.

No wonder you have no cash. You recruit creatures you do not need. Marksmen are generally sufficient for Castle to win battles with no losses; Griffins are simply not necessary.

If can afford buying them while respecting your building schedule, maybe. You under-estimate the importance of money in the early game, as astounding as it may sounds. In some cases, the ennemy may take your town with all these goodies inside the walls, un-recruited.

If you are fool enough to let your opponent capture your town, you deserve to lose. NEVER, EVER, let your opponent capture your town without a fight. NEVER!

On all the others... you won't! As a loose rule of thumb, the larger the map, the scarcier the ressources and treasure chests.

I have mentioned a map - All For One. I'll remark that you did agree to a duel on this map, believing it is a good one to show that Logistics specialists are not overpowered. I can show you that achieving this build on All For One, on Expert Difficulty, by week 3, is not impossible. But then you argue that All For One is literally laden with resources. What gives, when Logistics specialists rise in power if resources are abundant? As well. State a map then where you believe it is not possible.

And as a rule of the thumb, the larger the map, the more abundant the resources and treasure chests.

It is a certitude that Nucleon's army would include all the Crusaders you could afford in that week. Having them 2 days in advance isn't going to be of a noticeable difference.

In this, you are right. I will point out why. At this point, it is the Marksmen that make your army strong, and therefore Marksmen are infinitely useful and superior to Lizard Warriors.

[SmokingBarrel]

I voted the walking dead, since you can chop 'em all up for skeletons if you are feeling very bored...and I like zombies. Espacially in H2...the H3 zombie ain't too bad either...uses a nice hammer, like how they walk...

Sigh...I didn't bother reading the last few pages, but Banedon and Nucleon, can you please make your posts shorter? It'll take infinitely long to read all of that...

[csarmi]

It's not really the LW's that win you the fights then. The simple fact that they have only 5 speed makes me not upgrade them for a long time.

Nope, the AA's win because of their first two attacks (AA attack - AB retals, AA attack - AB retals, AB attack... etc).

We should assume neither uses the "Defend" button and both sides continuously attack. The Archangels lose.

Sorry, no build You can figure it out for yourself. It also depends on map richness, difficulty, etc a lot. One way is to go for angels fast, the other is to get champions at least. And hopefully castle too.

Two angels versus one is a big difference too. Three over two is really meaningless, though.

Yea Inferno probably wins if they have the same forces, but they won't. Conflux goes into endfights with much better heroes, much more troops, much better artifacts. That's too much.

AA's and AB's focus on killing completely different kind of troops. Surely there won't be fight between them(yea the AB's will attack AA's and the latter ones will try to avoid it).

Why? In the endfight both the Ancient Behemoth's and Archangel's duty is to deal damage. They have the same role. How is this different?

[csarmi]

Quote from Nucleon:

Money, you can always produce; That's what towns do.

This is the key sentence! That's where you know he goes all wrong.

[Pol]

Hurray, finally we're going to the conclusion!

I will only shortly repeat what was said..

...expand in all directions, use more heroes.
...don't buy all units, especially when you don't need them. (Same for buildings..)
...ponder what you will need to get from chest according to what you need.
...fast exploring wil bring you much more resources then the town.


This will fix your flexibility problem

Now, ladies and gentlemen, get all your well deserved Badges of Honour (limited silver series for Knights and Peasants) and by now, please, vote and pretend to stay on topi., brb, brb...
----------------- -----------------

.

[Bandobras Took]

Just a quick note -- I played "All For One" on Impossible last night with the Fortress, and ended up using Wystan as my hero (Lizard Warrior specialist), as I chose Bron and he didn't start with any Basilisks. The Lizard Warriors were great for early map clearing (Wystan makes them fairly effective) but their usefulness died out as the map went on -- I more often found myself wandering around with nothing but Wyvern Monarchs, Mighty Gorgons, Dragonflies, and Chaos Hydras.

It might, however, have been a different story if I had been able to protect them more efficiently; but my spells were not suitable for protection and there were a plethora of ranged units to deal with. There's a certain sort of "critical mass" when it comes to creature stacks; if they take too much damage, they become useless for their point in the game.

[Nucleon]

Wood and Ore you can always produce. That's what mines are for.

Mines are no part of a town. Having a town does not guarantee you mines. If you don't have them, for some reason or another, chances are you are going to deal with the Marketplace, and build a silo.

I don't get what you mean at all. Archangels and Ancient Behemoths, by your same post, exist to kill the other side. Why then is it irrelevant, if a Marksmen / Lizard Warrior fight isn't?

Archangels tasks; Take on shooters, invade inner courts, getting the initiative, ressurect fallen troops.

A-Behemoth task; Take on 7th lvl units.

Marksmen and Lizard Warrior tasks; Staying at their end of the battlefield and shoot down ennemies.

I did it that at Hard, I'll admit. But the difference between Hard and Expert is a mere 5,000 gold, and assure you I had more than enough resources to compensate. That 5,000 gold will be of concern though in the earlier parts - but again I believe I could have compensated.

First, Nucleon salutes your honesty. Then, changing difficulties also modifies the number of other ressources you have at the start of the game.

You have not proved anything. I won't buy Swordsmen at all if they are not needed (I tend never to buy unupgraded creatures anyway). Finding 12,000 gold on the map in the first week is a challenge, but not an impossible one - this can be done very simply on All For One, I might add. And you did not appear to note that I built the Town Hall on day 1.

Yes, Nucleon did prove, using objective numbers, what your building scheme will cost you. Maps are irrelevant to the proof itself, as it is mathematical in nature, with no variables in itself. Building a Portal of Glory is "proven" to cost 20000 gold and 10 of each ressources (but in w&o).

What he didn't prove, is that most of the maps at this difficulty won't provide you with what you need, the heart of our disagreement

(The Town Hall thing was Nucleon's mistake. He meant City Hall.)

By Week 2, I can reasonably expect to have conquered extra towns, be it from neutrals or from the AI (in fact, this is quite possible in week 1). The problem of resources starts to diminish.

Extra towns, in the first weeks, are likely to slow your main town's development if you invest in them. If you do, they will bring you 500 golds per day. In the case where you sacrifice 5 woods and 3000 gold, they will earn you double, of course. The value of a Gold Mine.

The problem of ressources diminuish as the game advances anyway.

Not having spells is a handicap, but it can and will be nullified. All the examples wimfrits, csarmi and I mentioned can be done without spells. Only come the harder fights - in Week 2 - do spells gain in prominence. Completing the week 1 build isn't that hard, and the Marketplace is not necessary then. It's in week 2 that trading occurs.

Having no spells, like "slow", "View Air/Earth", "Magic Arrow", "Haste" nor "Cure" is a disavantage any way you cut it, even more so in the first week where you must capitalize on all of what you've got.

If the map is completely barren and no resources of any kind are available, I would still not get Royal Griffins. Crusaders more than suffice. And I assure you I don't flinch over the resource cost, it's the time I'm flinching over.

On Expert difficulties, you will find yourself having pauses in your town advancement in the second week, moreso with the costly buildings you aim for. When this happen, you may find that the Griffins (one of the best 3rd level troop there is) are helping a lot not getting you stalled; The next troops you are going to produce that have speed above 7 are the Champions, fine troops but expensive in ressources and unable to fly over castle walls in sieges.

And if you don't have a fast troop, early, you'll lose the spell initiative, and that can have dire consequences.

No wonder you have no cash. You recruit creatures you do not need. Marksmen are generally sufficient for Castle to win battles with no losses; Griffins are simply not necessary.

You don't have cash. Nucleon, with is development scheme, will have a lot more than you do. You recognized this a few posts earlier.

I can show you that achieving this build on All For One, on Expert Difficulty, by week 3, is not impossible.

In all due respects, and respect Nucleon does have for you indeed, you have not demonstrated that yet.

But then you argue that All For One is literally laden with resources. What gives, when Logistics specialists rise in power if resources are abundant? As well. State a map then where you believe it is not possible.

A question here; In official tournaments, does the duelling players are allowed a study of the map before the game? That may dictate what you will be able to build.

And as a rule of the thumb, the larger the map, the more abundant the resources and treasure chests.

Not so sure about this. Often, loose ressources and Chests are a starting town feature, and are getting rarer past the first week. And as a larger map often means more adventure, more towns and more fights, map designers often don't overload it with sweets past the immediate viccinity of your starting town.

That, of course, Nucleon cannot prove, as mapmakers differ a lot.

In this, you are right. I will point out why. At this point, it is the Marksmen that make your army strong, and therefore Marksmen are infinitely useful and superior to Lizard Warriors.

Put "at game starts" in your statement, and Nucleon shall agree. Put "up to the final battles" in its stead, and He shall disagree.

Another long post; Sorry, SmokingBarrel.

[Nucleon]

Just a quick note -- I played "All For One" on Impossible last night with the Fortress, and ended up using Wystan as my hero (Lizard Warrior specialist), as I chose Bron and he didn't start with any Basilisks. The Lizard Warriors were great for early map clearing (Wystan makes them fairly effective) but their usefulness died out as the map went on -- I more often found myself wandering around with nothing but Wyvern Monarchs, Mighty Gorgons, Dragonflies, and Chaos Hydras.

It might, however, have been a different story if I had been able to protect them more efficiently; but my spells were not suitable for protection and there were a plethora of ranged units to deal with. There's a certain sort of "critical mass" when it comes to creature stacks; if they take too much damage, they become useless for their point in the game.

Thanks for that. Did you play Red or Blue? And on Impossible, what was your building scheme?

[csarmi]

There is no such thing s pause in town developement. If you do that, something's already wrong.

(yes I am aware of the fact that such maps can be constructed, but they aren't)

[LordScimitar]

I wonder if my "Lizardmen against Marksmen Lizardmen win" comment started this. I will say Nucleon can argue a point to its death, resurrect it, and argue it again. And repeat the process two or three times. Unfortunately, I always seem to disagree with him, heh.

I'd like to make a few points:

Castle usually has more heroes, or at least chances to acquire, the archery skill. This is a huge benefit. Also, Leadership is almost a definite for Castle Heroes. Not so for Fortress, though they can get it. Fortress has armory, yes, though. But, if you're buying an archer for their sturdiness, you need to think again. Sure, its nice if they get hit and can take it pretty well, but if they're getting hit/blocked so they can't shoot, their usefulness is simply over. With the exception of units with equal melee damage, though, its still better to use them as Shooters.

Fortress can take damage better, but, when you're talking only about shooters, its more about dishing out damage than dealing it.