Ancestors = Ancients - ?

[Demilich]

I really wonder who these mysterious powers could be. A couple of versions:

1. Just overpowered barbarians of anciant times, who ascended after death and now watch over their people
2. As Marzhin suggested - manifistations of Powers of the Dome, most neutral explanation
3. Ancients. In disguise. Right now I'm playing Warriors of M&M (PS2-version) and found an interesting document in the game:

"While insignificant affairs of man are usually not a concern of all-powered Ancients, some of gods have been known to take pity on races of this world - even lending hand in mankind's development and survival. Anciend called Einar, however, has love for humanity rivaled only by his own awesome power. Einar is possibly most powerful of all Immortals and best known for his destruction of kreegan behemoth, Klayexraan. Mighty Einar championed mortals of this world in one form of another".

So, I see strong parallels with Ancestors and our old buddy Tarnum. Ancients that looks over Enroth, make him their champion... Why they are not acting directly? Maybe some "law of universal balance" prevents them from doing so, or they don't want mortals to rely on "cheat-codes"?

And another fact to support latest version - when Alleron drinks vial of dragon blood, he sees Einar in the mirror, and this Ancient has exactly the same look as Ancestors in Chronicles!


But there also many contradictions to this version. If trio of Ancients are watch over Enroth all of the time, why Escaton came at all? Who sent him? Why Mellian told heroes that world is cut off from the rest of Ancient civilization in the era of Silence? And why Corak tells heroes on Webstation Beta 5 that Ancients are not available in Spinward Rim of the galaxy?

So, the questions stands - who are Ancestors?..

[Corlagon]

Interesting. Well, I really doubt that the Ancients and the Ancestors are one and the same, since most of the evidence suggests that the Ancients are human:

"To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before"
- Mission of the Ancients, Might and Magic V (definitely not God-like!)

Log Entry 2: Orbit established around Terra. Utilzing Schwartz-Heinrich matter transfer device to accomplish planetfall.
- Corak, Might and Magic V (Schwartz-Heinrich? Not God-like names)

Nav computers predict that the Terrans will not impact the project but will instead burn up in the atmosphere. I have instructed them on the use of the matter transfer device aboard their seedship so that they may escape its destruction. I am going into stasis now. May the Gods smile upon me.
- Corak, Might and Magic V (why say Gods instead of Ancients? There must be a difference)

My masters were kings and queens of a golden civilization. I was made, not because I was needed, but because I could be made--a protector of that which needed no protection...a symbol of might to a mighty people.
- Escaton, Might and Magic VIII

And so have my masters fallen. They are warlords and generals, and I am their greatest soldier.
- Escaton, Might and Magic VIII

"There are many worlds of people, you know, all different yet all descended, so we believe, from a single far-faring race that roamed the emptiness a very long time ago."

"The Ancients, that would be," Hitch said. "With their floating flower seeds, their Wire, and their Guardians."
- Hitch and Jassad Attqua, The Shadowsmith

Whether any of these claims are true has not been independently verified. I however am one who takes their claims to heart. While at a historical site in the Beldonian Province, I saw cave paintings of men fighting demons in the sky. Why they were, or why they were fighting has been lost to time, but I doubt the primitives who created those paintings could hardly be sophisticated enough to have come up with those ideas on their own.
- Might and Magic IX (paintings of men... not blue, transparent gods)

And then we have logic... why would godlike beings go around spreading technology and creating human-like robots? Why would they battle Kreegans when they could just make humans immortal and send them off to fight? Why concern themselves with minerals the Kreegan might seek and use so much electronic jargon? Why would Melian, Escaton and history itself suggest that they have been gone from Colony / Enroth with no correspondence for centuries when they are clearly pretty active? Where would they cast Armageddon's Blade so that it would never be found (Sword of Frost, last mission)? And why would one of their kind go renegade just because Barbarians worshipped him?

So it seems to me that the Ancients themselves are mortal, though LotA points out that they can basically 'create' Gods. Or perhaps the natives of Ardon mistook the Immortals they saw - conjured through the Forces of the Dome - for the Ancients themselves...?

[Demilich]

I think ardonians not mistook them for immortals, they just see Ancients as gods that created their civilization. Another history notes from Warriors of M&M:

"Eons ago, when Ardon was nothing but ball of magma spinninf through Void, bitter struggle was taking place in Heavens. To this dat, Ancients and Kreegan battle to gain control of Universe. Ancients, more powerful than mightiest Kreegans, are very few in number. Kreegans make up for their lack of might by amassing infinite armies of seething hatred and fury. Thus, balance of power has endured since beginngin of creation. For centuries, control of our planet has been primary objective of both Ancients and Kreegan, with no regard to inhabitants. Man and beast alike find only death and suffering when stumbling across path of warring immortals. We fear that races of our world will not survive this power struggle."

Inhabitnts of Ardon - border world in the Great War, it seems - doesn't like either side which attempt to dominate them. Motrals use terms Immortals and Heaven when referred to Ancients and Kreegan; so, what can we expect from them?..

[Corlagon]

Well we know neither race is really immortal, since otherwise there couldn't be a war

Still doesn't explain much, the Ancients must be human-like or the other races couldn't have been descended from them...

Is it possible for you to take a screenshot of Einar?

[Demilich]

http://www.gildia.acidcave.net/two/31.gif - Einar

BTW, he didn't make humans immortal, just powerful enough. Tarnum is immortal just due constant influence from Ancestors side, it is his only cheat-code

[Corlagon]

Thanks!

He actually does look a lot like Vorr, but not blue or transparent. Maybe... the Forces of the Dome are "programmed" to manifest themselves so that they look exactly like some of the Ancients?

[Kareeah Indaga]

Where would they cast Armageddon's Blade so that it would never be found (Sword of Frost, last mission)?

They wouldn't. Unless I'm much mistaken it was the Sword of Frost the Ancestors were going to cast away, not Armageddon's Blade.

[Corlagon]

You're right, sorry for the mistake.

So where would they have cast the Sword of Frost...?

[Avonu]

1. Just overpowered barbarians of anciant times, who ascended after death and now watch over their people

I don't think so - they were only three. And besides Jarg kingdom which defeated Bracaduun where not more then 100 years before Tarnum was born (he has about 1000 years in HIV - so he probably born in 200 years since Silence. And before Silence I just can't image that barbarian tribes can live on Enroth).
I don't think that these three beings could be that deferent from later kings and warlords.

As Marzhin suggested - manifistations of Powers of the Dome, most neutral explanation

No - look point 3.

3. Ancients. In disguise. Right now I'm playing Warriors of M&M (PS2-version) and found an interesting document in the game

If you look at Quest for the Dragonbone Staff you will see images of Gelu, Erathian forces and so on - I think that in Warriors are pictures from Heroes Chronicals. Maybe lack of time or/and money for new portairs?


And now why Ancestors can't be Ancients:

- Enroth has already one Guardian - Melian. Why he didn't contact Ancestors and tell them about Kreegan invasion? And why Enroth have three additional guardians (high rank guardians) when Ancients need all there forces to fight the Kreegan (as Escaton suggest)?

- If we assume that Fiery Moon was infested by the Kreegan (not just by fantasy setting demons), then why these devils not kill all three Ancients (they mortal enemies)?

- When Ancestors just not recall Escaton and order him to stop destroying Enroth? Ancients have power to stop his Summoning.

- Why Ancestors simply not stop Elemental Lords in HC: Master of Elementals? Ancients have power/magic (as is posted in MM3 manual) to not only deafeat Elemental Lords but also destroy them (as is hinted in this manual).

My conclusions and speculations - Ancestors are another cosmic race which has protect the barbarians on Enroth and Axeoth. Maybe Arselgardian gods are Ancestors (they have power of return death to life after all), maybe not.
I don't know why they protects barbarians but it must have something with World Tree and maybe some unclear connections with Ancients (like Ancestors could be lesser and less powerful cosmic race which serve Ancients).


And for the end - don't forgot about demise of Forge project. It probably decide to abanddon sci-fi theme and focus on fantasy theme - so in HC we have Underworld and Paradise, World Tree (some kind of Yggdrasil myth), demons and gods (Ancestors and Arselgardian gods are presented as gods like in other fantasy worlds).

[Kareeah Indaga]

Ancients have power/magic (as is posted in MM3 manual) to not only deafeat Elemental Lords but also destroy them (as is hinted in this manual).

I don't remember this bit, can you quote it please?

[Avonu]

Searched for that but it's look it was my interpretation (from HC:MotE and others). In MM3 manual one version of legend says that combine powers of Elementals can threat Forces.

Sorry for that mistake.

[Corlagon]

As Marzhin suggested - manifistations of Powers of the Dome, most neutral explanation

This is the one that makes most sense IMO. If we have Ancients which look like Ancestors, it means there almost must be a connection. So if the Forces are not the Ancients, it's more likely that the Forces manifest themselves in the Ancients' image somehow, through programming? Hence you have Vorr and the other two.

And besides Jarg kingdom which defeated Bracaduun where not more then 100 years before Tarnum was born (he has about 1000 years in HIV - so he probably born in 200 years since Silence. And before Silence I just can't image that barbarian tribes can live on Enroth).

I did the maths on that and Tarnum specifically states he's over a thousand years old at the end of the Might campaign. I assume he's approx. 1050 years old which would make his birth year c.a. 126 A.S.

And for the end - don't forgot about demise of Forge project. It probably decide to abanddon sci-fi theme and focus on fantasy theme

That's more an influence on the company than the storyline, isn't it? Just because the developers chose to put no obvious sci-fi connections in the last games doesn't mean they can't exist.

In MM3 manual one version of legend says that combine powers of Elementals can threat Forces.

That would actually coincide well with Marzhin's theory... "It is told that the world has been formed and destroyed many times. The Lords of Air, the Water, the Fire, and the Earth, will give life... and take it away."

About the other Forces, well I'd guess that the Ancestors are Bellum, Cosmonium and Esoterica. The Boatman could be Lurkane, and perhaps the World Tree is some sort of unmanifested Gaiam. Plothole solved...?

[Avonu]

About the other Forces, well I'd guess that the Ancestors are Bellum, Cosmonium and Esoterica. The Boatman could be Lurkane, and perhaps the World Tree is some sort of unmanifested Gaiam. Plothole solved...?

No
[quote=""MM3 manual"]After the battle was over... the Five Forces picked up the land and moved it through heavens to the gates of Terra...While the Forces were carrying the isles through the stars...[/quote]

We Elves have known about the World Tree for some time. There was a time, long ago, when we were its protectors but we nearly failed. If not for your Ancestors, it would've been destroyed. Ever since, your Ancestors have guarded it instead

So:
1. World Tree wasn't Gaiam - it was something that first was protected by Elves (they are on Antagarich since time before Silence) and later by Ancestors.
2. Forces carried isles (Shikbath Zera transport ship) through stars. Ancestors were on Antagarich from at least Silence. Sheltem was Guardian of Shikbath Zera and Terra (he crashlanded its CRON and VARN) - so when Ancestors where on Antagarich to look out on barbarians and Tarnum, Forces "moved" transpot ship through stars.
I don't think that they can leave World Tree and barbarians unprotected to "transport" isles to Terra.

And if you thinking about using Astral Plane:

A METALLIC PANEL SLIDES OPEN, REVEALING A MYSTERIOUS MAN IN A WHITE COAT... IN A SERENE VOICE, THE DATA KEEPER SAYS, "WELCOME TO YOUR INNER SANCTUM VARNLINGS! I AM VERY PLEASED THAT YOU'VE MADE IT THIS FAR. YOU ARE TO BE COMMENDED. I'VE BEEN MONITORING YOUR PROGRESS." TURNING TO THE STRANGE MECHANICAL DEVICE, HE INSERTS A FLAT OBJECT INTO A SLOT.
EXCELLENT RATING! THIS IS A RARE OCCASION, FOR ONLY A RIVILEGED FEW ARE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY FOR TRANSFER TO ANOTHER V.A.R.N. (VEHICULAR ASTROPOD RESEARCH NACELLE).

Note from me: Gates to Another World were note in Astral Plane but on VARN (you only need this person to active it).

[Corlagon]

1. World Tree wasn't Gaiam - it was something that first was protected by Elves (they are on Antagarich since time before Silence) and later by Ancestors.

But if the Elves failed to protect Colony's Gaiam, isn't it logical that the other Forces would assume that role? And what else could the Tree be if it's necessary to the world's continued existence

Plus, I think the Elves were likely not on Antagarich before the Silence:

http://thespinwardtales.wikispaces.com/ ... +Renegades

This tale seems to be set post-Silence IMO.

2. Forces carried isles (Shikbath Zera transport ship) through stars. Ancestors were on Antagarich from at least Silence. Sheltem was Guardian of Shikbath Zera and Terra (he crashlanded its CRON and VARN) - so when Ancestors where on Antagarich to look out on barbarians and Tarnum, Forces "moved" transpot ship through stars.
I don't think that they can leave World Tree and barbarians unprotected to "transport" isles to Terra.

You are right but I think you misunderstood something. Marzhin's theory (if I've interpreted it correctly) doesn't say there are only one of each Force - i.e. only one Gaiam, only one Bellum. It goes that each planet (not nacelles) has its own set of the five forces, for example Axeoth has Krohn and Hanndl where Colony has Vorr and the others. Terra's ones are seperate too, just that their original names are remembered.

The Forces are there to maintain elemental balance, and that's why the world blew up with the clash of the Swords, since Escaton "deactivated" them to summon the Crystal. I think that the Ancestors and the Tree are not the Forces themselves, just manifestations of them, so this is why they weren't eliminated when Escaton cut off their power (and after the world's destruction, since they contact Tarnum after he dies on Axeoth).

As for how the Forces affected the Wandering Seed (Shikbath Zera) I'm not sure. Maybe they were already affecting the planet and somehow became known by the Terrans after they landed. I guess this is where an actual date for the Isles' original landing on Terra would be useful.

A METALLIC PANEL SLIDES OPEN, REVEALING A MYSTERIOUS MAN IN A WHITE COAT... IN A SERENE VOICE, THE DATA KEEPER SAYS, "WELCOME TO YOUR INNER SANCTUM VARNLINGS! I AM VERY PLEASED THAT YOU'VE MADE IT THIS FAR. YOU ARE TO BE COMMENDED. I'VE BEEN MONITORING YOUR PROGRESS." TURNING TO THE STRANGE MECHANICAL DEVICE, HE INSERTS A FLAT OBJECT INTO A SLOT.
EXCELLENT RATING! THIS IS A RARE OCCASION, FOR ONLY A PRIVILEGED FEW ARE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY FOR TRANSFER TO ANOTHER V.A.R.N. (VEHICULAR ASTROPOD RESEARCH NACELLE).

Is it just me or does this sound a lot like Webstation Beta-5 from the ending of Might and Magic VII? Right down to the man in the white coat with a serene voice...

[XEL II]

I don't think the Ancestors are the Ancients. I think they are personifications of the Forces of Dome. This also nicely explains why Melian didn't stop the elemental Lords in MotE (besides the obvious (but not storywise) explanation that Terry Ray wasn't clued about Might and Magic lore).

And then we have logic... why would godlike beings go around spreading technology and creating human-like robots? Why would they battle Kreegans when they could just make humans immortal and send them off to fight? Why concern themselves with minerals the Kreegan might seek and use so much electronic jargon? Why would Melian, Escaton and history itself suggest that they have been gone from Colony / Enroth with no correspondence for centuries when they are clearly pretty active? Where would they cast Armageddon's Blade so that it would never be found (Sword of Frost, last mission)? And why would one of their kind go renegade just because Barbarians worshipped him?

Elder Races (like the Kreegan, Ancients and Creators) can very well find the way to disrupt immortality like the one Tarnum have. Besides, Tarnum was Immortal due to his constant link to the Ancestors.
And the Ancients are certainly more powerful than the Ancestors and would also have no problen with casting the Sword of Frost to the place where it will never be found. The only reasons (besides LotA explanation) why I don't consider the ancsetors being the Ancients are the ones listed by Avonu.

BTW, the isles "carried" by the Forces weren't Shikbath Zera's modules, but four VARNs intended for Terra (though I think modules were of the overall same technology with VARNs). And the Ancestors and Arslegardian Gods, according to LotA, aren't the Forces of Dome themselves. There is one each Force, they are Artificial Intelligence from the Web of World aka Wire. Ancestors and Arslegardian Gods are only Forces' personifications.

[Corlagon]

The only reasons (besides LotA explanation) why I don't consider the ancsetors being the Ancients are the ones listed by Avonu.

Indulge me, then, by explaining away the reasons I listed

And the Ancients are certainly more powerful than the Ancestors and would also have no problen with casting the Sword of Frost to the place where it will never be found.

I didn't say they would, I asked where they would cast it

Web of World aka Wire

They are not the same thing. The Web of Worlds is the Gate system which the MM7 and MM3 heroes reawaken at the end of MM7, while the Wire is an energy source which provides each planet and nacelle with magic.

[XEL II]

They are not the same thing. The Web of Worlds is the Gate system, while the Wire is an energy source.

Web of Worlds is "the network of communication and shipping" according to Melian. The Gate Web is part of it. The Wire was described pretty much the same way as the Web of Worlds in Corak's and Sheltem's logs. Apparently, the Web of Worlds is another name for Wire or the Wire is part of the Web.

[Corlagon]

Apparently, the Web of Worlds is another name for Wire or the Wire is part of the Web.

I think you should read "The Dreamwright" again

[XEL II]

while the Wire is an energy source which provides each planet and nacelle with magic.

There is no proof for that. It was reffered to in the same way as the Web of Worlds and in Geary Gravel's novels it was refferedto be connecting the Wheel world to the Ancients. Surely, it can be used as an energy source (according to the novels), but we don't know if it is the source of magic.

I think you should read "The Dreamwright" again

I think you should read Guardians' logs again. They were talking about the Wire as the planetary network, including communications and control systems.

[Corlagon]

and in Geary Gravel's novels it was refferedto be connecting the Wheel world to the Ancients

Nonetheless, it is not one and the same as the Web of Worlds as you said. Corak also calls it the Gate Web - in case you forget, Hitch uses the Gate Web in "The Shadowsmith", which has nothing to do with the Wire

Surely, it can be used as an energy source (according to the novels), but we don't know if it is the source of magic.

It is the source of the Wielders' magic, according to the novels

I think you should read Guardians' logs again. They were talking about the Wire as the planetary network, including communications and control systems.

Yes, it is a network, but it doesn't act as a portal between one world and all others, now does it?