Map of Antagarich is more general than specific about the landscape, so this is not the point.Corlagon wrote: Well, I'd appreciate it if you could point out the expansive desert and snowy mountainous areas in Nighon on the map of Antagarich, because I see none.
MM History question
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Well, I don't seem to get the point then. I mean, if there's a place named "The Endless Sands" you'd expect at least a little sand to be shown on the map where it apparently should be. There's none, so obviously it doesn't belong there. 
Besides, the map is more than accurate when it comes to Steadwick, Eeofol, Krewlod, etc etc...
The only discrepancies are that there's no Bracada Desert shown, and Evenmorn Isle ought to have been grassy.
Makes more sense that the Sands and Land were in pre-Kreegan Eeofol, which we know very little about before it became volcanic.
Besides, the map is more than accurate when it comes to Steadwick, Eeofol, Krewlod, etc etc... The only discrepancies are that there's no Bracada Desert shown, and Evenmorn Isle ought to have been grassy.
Makes more sense that the Sands and Land were in pre-Kreegan Eeofol, which we know very little about before it became volcanic.
I did some nitpicking research of Enroth's maps (both in-game and continental ones). So, these are places not visited in M&M6:
Much of the Dragonsand (we mainly visit the north and south).
Various areas in central Enroth (between Balckshire, Kriegspire, Free Haven and Frozen Highlands).
Some areas in southeastern Enroth (between the Mire of the Damned, Castle Temper, New Sorpigal and Castle Ironfist). Noraston appears to be there, between the dwarven land and Mire of the Damned. Castle Alamar seems to be betweeen New Sorpigal and Castle Ironfist.
Many areas in northern Enroth (Siver Cove and Frozen Highlands).
Much of the Paradise Valley (between Sweet Water and Edenbrook).
Are just northwest the the White Cap (view from the space).
In total we don't visit 1/3 of Enroth in M&M6. More than enough place for aforementioned locations from HoMM1-2.
Much of the Dragonsand (we mainly visit the north and south).
Various areas in central Enroth (between Balckshire, Kriegspire, Free Haven and Frozen Highlands).
Some areas in southeastern Enroth (between the Mire of the Damned, Castle Temper, New Sorpigal and Castle Ironfist). Noraston appears to be there, between the dwarven land and Mire of the Damned. Castle Alamar seems to be betweeen New Sorpigal and Castle Ironfist.
Many areas in northern Enroth (Siver Cove and Frozen Highlands).
Much of the Paradise Valley (between Sweet Water and Edenbrook).
Are just northwest the the White Cap (view from the space).
In total we don't visit 1/3 of Enroth in M&M6. More than enough place for aforementioned locations from HoMM1-2.
Keep in mind that these map was before HC. Besides, we never visited most of Nighon in games. So, the map could be not specific about the Nighonian landscape.Corlagon wrote:The only discrepancies are that there's no Bracada Desert shown, and Evenmorn Isle ought to have been grassy.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Neither do I.Corlagon wrote:I see no reason not to trust it. It is canon after all
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Update to my thoughts.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Map of Enroth. Regions not visited in M&M6 are marked red.
As you can see, enough place for Carator Mines, Lorendale Valles, Krashaw (between Agar's Lab and White Cap), Noraston (south to dwarven lands), and various towns and castles (like Castle Halton, Castle Haart, Ironfist's summer palace etc.). Arrow shows path to the area north to White Cap (view from space). Apparently, the Trackless Desert and Frozen Wastes are located there (Castle Slayer).
As you can see, enough place for Carator Mines, Lorendale Valles, Krashaw (between Agar's Lab and White Cap), Noraston (south to dwarven lands), and various towns and castles (like Castle Halton, Castle Haart, Ironfist's summer palace etc.). Arrow shows path to the area north to White Cap (view from space). Apparently, the Trackless Desert and Frozen Wastes are located there (Castle Slayer).
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Proofs that Clash of the Dragons couldn't take place in 1164:
- in 1164 Adrienne was in Eeofol learning Fire Magic from the Kreegans, she returned to Tatalia during RoE;
- if Clash of the Dragons was shortly before RoE it would be at least briefly mentioned in RoE, since it was a full-scale war between AvLee and Nighon, in which Erathia took part;
- it is mentioned in tavern rumors in Adrienne's campaign that "Nighonian lady aspires to be the queen". This implies that Mutare's AB campaign was during 1169-1171 (time the Demon War of AB campaign was waged);
So, CotD appears to take place in 1173 (after AB and M&M8). As for some seemingly cofusing moments about it:
Infernos in Mutare's army. Most of Inferno creatures aren't the Kreegan (the Kreegan is Devil unit and horned Demons and Pit Lords are an off-shot breed) and Inferno creatures can be in Nighonian army after AB. There was also a group of Kreegans present in CotD guarding Valita, that means they were surviving Kreegans who briefly joined Mutare.
"King" of Erathia. Tarnum happily lived for 20 years in AvLee and apparently wasn't much interested in other countries. He could confuse "leader of Erathia" for "King of Erathia" first time he heard it. There was also something like that, when Aspen said that the Vial of the Dragon Blood contains the blood tof the first Dragon Dame. This was what Elves believe to be in the Vial.
- in 1164 Adrienne was in Eeofol learning Fire Magic from the Kreegans, she returned to Tatalia during RoE;
- if Clash of the Dragons was shortly before RoE it would be at least briefly mentioned in RoE, since it was a full-scale war between AvLee and Nighon, in which Erathia took part;
- it is mentioned in tavern rumors in Adrienne's campaign that "Nighonian lady aspires to be the queen". This implies that Mutare's AB campaign was during 1169-1171 (time the Demon War of AB campaign was waged);
So, CotD appears to take place in 1173 (after AB and M&M8). As for some seemingly cofusing moments about it:
Infernos in Mutare's army. Most of Inferno creatures aren't the Kreegan (the Kreegan is Devil unit and horned Demons and Pit Lords are an off-shot breed) and Inferno creatures can be in Nighonian army after AB. There was also a group of Kreegans present in CotD guarding Valita, that means they were surviving Kreegans who briefly joined Mutare.
"King" of Erathia. Tarnum happily lived for 20 years in AvLee and apparently wasn't much interested in other countries. He could confuse "leader of Erathia" for "King of Erathia" first time he heard it. There was also something like that, when Aspen said that the Vial of the Dragon Blood contains the blood tof the first Dragon Dame. This was what Elves believe to be in the Vial.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Apparently, though, she was in Steadwick sometime between her training and her return. I don't think she was in training with the Kreegans at that time, do you?Xel II wrote:- in 1164 Adrienne was in Eeofol learning Fire Magic from the Kreegans, she returned to Tatalia during RoE;
If she was was born in 1147, she went to study Fire Magic at 15, apparently spending two years in training before heading for Steadwick. You can do the maths, I believe
Retrospectively, CotD and its events didn't exist when RoE was released.Xel II wrote:- if Clash of the Dragons was shortly before RoE it would be at least briefly mentioned in RoE, since it was a full-scale war between AvLee and Nighon, in which Erathia took part;
Again, though, in retrospect CotD came after Heroes III. As we know, there are a few inconsistencies (just look at Sandro and Ethric).Xel II wrote:- it is mentioned in tavern rumors in Adrienne's campaign that "Nighonian lady aspires to be the queen". This implies that Mutare's AB campaign was during 1169-1171 (time the Demon War of AB campaign was waged);
So all in all, this is another matter of conjecture, as there is proof for either side (slightly more for mine, though, to be frank)
She was studiyng in Steadwick before her campaign in AB. In her bio it is said that she went to Eeofol to study Fire Magic and returned in Tatalia when the Restoration Wars had already been waged.Corlagon wrote:Apparently, though, she was in Steadwick sometime between her training and her return. I don't think she was in training with the Kreegans at that time, do you?
If she was was born in 1147, she went to study Fire Magic at 15, apparently spending two years in training before heading for Steadwick. You can do the maths, I believe
[quote="Corlagon]Retrospectively, CotD and its events didn't exist when RoE was released.[/quote]
But since there are no direct statements that they were before RoE, why should they be before it, especially considering they weren't mentioned in RoE in any way.
More for mine. Much more. The simple fact that Adrienne was in Eeofol before RoE makes it impossible for CotD to take place before RoE. Not to mention the reference to Mutare's campaign being in the Demon Wars period in AB.Corlagon wrote:So all in all, this is another matter of conjecture, as there is proof for either side (slightly more for mine, though, to be frank)
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
I think we should treat maps from MM6 as symbolic - they simply can't be 75% (more or less) of Enroth.XEL II wrote:Map of Enroth. Regions not visited in M&M6 are marked red.
From campaigns in HoMM 2 we know that Enroth should be much larger then this "puzzle map" (all 15 regions together) in MM6.
In MM7-9 game developers corrected this mistake of matching nearby regions and we have maps which are not connected by their borders. They are simply part of larger region (ex. Steadwick is not entire Erathia Kingdom, same with Tatalia and others).
At least it is much of Enroth. Regions from HoMM1-2 are obviously located between locations from M&M6.Avonu wrote:I think we should treat maps from MM6 as symbolic - they simply can't be 75% (more or less) of Enroth.
From campaigns in HoMM 2 we know that Enroth should be much larger then this "puzzle map" (all 15 regions together) in MM6.
In MM7-9 game developers corrected this mistake of matching nearby regions and we have maps which are not connected by their borders. They are simply part of larger region (ex. Steadwick is not entire Erathia Kingdom, same with Tatalia and others).
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Yes, it's like:Xel II wrote:She was studiyng in Steadwick before her campaign in AB. In her bio it is said that she went to Eeofol to study Fire Magic and returned in Tatalia when the Restoration Wars had already been waged.
Tatalia -> Eeofol -> Tatalia -> Steadwick -> Tarnum -> Tatalia Borderlands
There's no direct statements that say, MotE was before, say, MM7. Its events weren't really referenced in other games. So we could put it anywhere, couldn't we? We could even put it before CotU. But we don't. Why is that?Xel II wrote:But since there are no direct statements that they were before RoE, why should they be before it, especially considering they weren't mentioned in RoE in any way.
Nah.Xel II wrote:More for mine. Much more.
Nope. Her studiynig in Steadwick was after RoE. In her bio it is said that she returned to Tatalia, where boreder wars of RoE were waged. And she wouldn't have time to have a relationship with Tarnum and taking care for his adopted son for months.Corlagon wrote:Yes, it's like:
Tatalia -> Eeofol -> Tatalia -> Steadwick -> Tarnum -> Tatalia Borderlands
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Yes, that's what I said. Tatalia -> Eeofol -> Tatalia = She is born in Tatalia, she goes to Eeofol, she returns to Tatalia (for RoE).Xel II wrote:Nope. Her studiynig in Steadwick was after RoE.
There is a story here we don't know, like where did Waerjak come from (he has barbarian blood so probably Krewlod), how did Adrienne meet Tarnum and Waerjak, did Tarnum maybe first meet her on an AvLee skirmish into Eeofol etc. Maybe someone will make another Chronicle out of it one day.
She obviously couldn't go to Steadwick during her return from Eeofol (Tatalia and Erathia were at war) and couldn't go to AvLee and spent months (relationship with Tarnum and caretaking Waerjak) there.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
I only said she could spent months in AvLee after departing from Eeofol.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
Reckoining was in 1177 and M&M9 was in 1178. This is confirmed by Tim Lang (a long time ago) and Marzhin (for those who assume LotA canon).
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark
I am getting tired of having to discredit everything
I disagree with you once again, not only because there's zero ingame evidence (none in LotA, don't know where you got this from - LotA almost implies that the Reckoning was in 524 A.C.) and very shaky out-of-game evidence, but also because to assume this would destroy both of my timelines 
Also, if Tim Lang works with MMT and they are aware of his statement, why would they place the Reckoning in 1175 regardless? I don't think they'd just ignore his reasoning, especially since he's a co-developer.
Besides, do you think Gelu was hanging around for four to six years before going after the Sword of Frost? Do you think Morgan Kendal was waiting that long to choose an heir to Erathia's throne? I sure don't.
{And there's some more "proof" against CotD happening after AB - where was Gelu to defend AvLee and Erathia? He was the Forest Guard captain and a well-known Demonslayer... so why wasn't he protecting his nation, unless he was already a little busy fighting Sandro's Deyjan legions for the Council of Elders?)
I disagree with you once again, not only because there's zero ingame evidence (none in LotA, don't know where you got this from - LotA almost implies that the Reckoning was in 524 A.C.
) and very shaky out-of-game evidence, but also because to assume this would destroy both of my timelines Also, if Tim Lang works with MMT and they are aware of his statement, why would they place the Reckoning in 1175 regardless? I don't think they'd just ignore his reasoning, especially since he's a co-developer.
Besides, do you think Gelu was hanging around for four to six years before going after the Sword of Frost? Do you think Morgan Kendal was waiting that long to choose an heir to Erathia's throne? I sure don't.
{And there's some more "proof" against CotD happening after AB - where was Gelu to defend AvLee and Erathia? He was the Forest Guard captain and a well-known Demonslayer... so why wasn't he protecting his nation, unless he was already a little busy fighting Sandro's Deyjan legions for the Council of Elders?)
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