MM History question

[Corlagon]

And where did I disagree with this?

I think you're implying that Genies were created by the Ancients. How could they be, with so many indications that they originated in the Plane of Air?

If you're trying to say something else then I'm deeply sorry for my misunderstanding.

The fact that they are guarding the Tomb of VARN and that they were created by the "great power"

Where was this text again? Perhaps the Genies were just there by consequence {the Tomb's landed in a desert after all}, and those things that were actually named "Defender of VARN", "Sentinel of VARN" were the Guardians in question

Well, MMT also have Ethric the Mad becoming a lich in 1083

The problem being?

Karigor being north to Jadame

There's another, completely separate location named Karigor Isle - the one mentioned in MM6

Also, in this case, I can say that you are oddly considering M&M6 less canonical that MMT.

How so?

For example, in the map where Sandro repels AvLeean-Erathian-Krewlish attack on Deyja, one of the enemies castles is Inferno

I guess this is another indication that RotN took place after 1162 then

Gnome's height in comparison to other races is not shown there.

Dwarf's height in comparison to other races is not shown there. So let's assume that Terran Dwarves are miraculously taller than any other!

[Corlagon]

And where did I disagree with this?

I think you're implying that Genies were created by the Ancients. How could they be, with so many indications that they originated in the Plane of Air?

If you're trying to say something else then I'm deeply sorry for my misunderstanding.

The fact that they are guarding the Tomb of VARN and that they were created by the "great power"

Where was this text again? Perhaps the Genies were just there by consequence {the Tomb's landed in a desert after all}, and those things that were actually named "Defender of VARN", "Sentinel of VARN" were the Guardians in question

Well, MMT also have Ethric the Mad becoming a lich in 1083

The problem being?

Karigor being north to Jadame

There's another, completely separate location named Karigor Isle - the one mentioned in MM6

Also, in this case, I can say that you are oddly considering M&M6 less canonical that MMT.

How so?

For example, in the map where Sandro repels AvLeean-Erathian-Krewlish attack on Deyja, one of the enemies castles is Inferno

I guess this is another indication that RotN took place after 1162 then

Gnome's height in comparison to other races is not shown there.

Dwarf's height in comparison to other races is not shown there. So let's assume that Terran Dwarves are miraculously taller than any other!

[Corlagon]

Curses, double-posted. Sorry.

[XEL II]

Dwarf's height in comparison to other races is not shown there. So let's assume that Terran Dwarves are miraculously taller than any other!

Let's assume that the Gnomes are taller than the Dwarves, since there is no indications that they are of the same height, while there are indications that Dwarves are smaller that other races

The problem being?

Terrax was the one who founded the basics of Dark magic and the Brotherhood's first experiments in developing Dark magic were in early 400's. Terrax later became lich and the first lich and necromancer and the one who invented the Ritual of the Endless Night was Ethric the Mad.

I guess this is another indication that RotN took place after 1162 then

Considering there are also Dungeon and Necropolis as enemies on this map and no Ramparts, Castles and Strongholds whatsoever, I don't think so.

I think you're implying that Genies were created by the Ancients. How could they be, with so many indications that they originated in the Plane of Air?

If you're trying to say something else then I'm deeply sorry for my misunderstanding.

I'm saying that the Genies were created by the Ancients, but some of them also live in the Plane of Air.

Where was this text again?

Aenain's bio, AB.

{the Tomb's landed in a desert after all}, and those things that were actually named "Defender of VARN", "Sentinel of VARN" were the Guardians in question

The Tomb originally landed in the lush lands. I don't remember saying anywhere thet the Defenders and Sentinels are Guardians.

How so?

Well, on the previous discussions about the Karigor you were saying that Karigor from MMT is in fact Karigor mentioned in M&M6. But luckily now you are not saying this. BTW, if there is a totally separate location named Karigor Island, why both Karigor (accoring to MMT) and Karigor Island (according to M&M6) are homelands of the Churches of Sun and Moon?

[Corlagon]

Terrax was the one who founded the basics of Dark magic and the Brotherhood's first experiments in developing Dark magic were in early 400's. Terrax later became lich and the first lich and necromancer and the one who invented the Ritual of the Endless Night was Ethric the Mad.

The problem being? Nobody knows when Terrax became a Lich.

Considering there are also Dungeon and Necropolis as enemies on this map and no Ramparts, Castles and Strongholds whatsoever, I don't think so.

I don't see why the lack of the four heroes' towns affects anything. There aren't any Inferno towns in the first four campaigns, now are there? Coincidence?

I'm saying that the Genies were created by the Ancients, but some of them also live in the Plane of Air.

Then I think you're incorrect. Not only are the Ancients not Gods (Lizardmen think so, some Colonists think so, Ardon thinks so, that doesn't make it so), there's also this:

"Ancient even for an efreet, Nefafareen is credited as the first of her kind to abandon her innate powers to wield magic. All efreeti sorcerers have either been taught by Nefafareen or by one of her students. Until recently, she has lived exclusively on the Plane of Fire, traveling to this realm now for an unspoken reason."

So one of the oldest Efreeti in existence has never been outside of the Plane of Fire, and you think Genies (their counterparts) didn't originate from those Planes.

The Tomb originally landed in the lush lands.

Whoops, should have stated that...

I don't remember saying anywhere thet the Defenders and Sentinels are Guardians.

Confused? I said that. You're basically drawing the assumption that because there are Genies in the Tomb of VARN, they are the Tomb's original Guardians - even when there are creatures walking around named "Defenders of VARN" who fit this role perfectly.

Sort of like saying "So there's Dwarves living in AvLee. Let's wildly assume that this means AvLee was founded and ruled by Dwarves in the first place "

Well, on the previous discussions about the Karigor you were saying that Karigor from MMT is in fact Karigor mentioned in M&M6.

It both is, and isn't

But luckily now you are not saying this.

Because I asked MMT's developers about the inconsistency, and they explained that there isn't one

But ask Ribannah, not me. I just state what I find. If the game is released then we can have this debate.

BTW, if there is a totally separate location named Karigor Island, why both Karigor (accoring to MMT) and Karigor Island (according to M&M6) are homelands of the Churches of Sun and Moon?

Apparently, they were founded on Karigor Isle and later moved to Karigor the realm, where their battle took place.

[XEL II]

Then I think you're incorrect. Not only are the Ancients not Gods (Lizardmen think so, some Colonists think so, Ardon thinks so, that doesn't make it so)

Ancients aren't gods. But it doesn't mean Solmyr can't think so.

The problem being? Nobody knows when Terrax became a Lich.

It should be around the time of Dark magic discoveries (fifth century), since Ethric invented the Ritual during Terrax's life.

You're basically drawing the assumption that because there are Genies in the Tomb of VARN, they are the Tomb's original Guardians - even when there are creatures walking around named "Defenders of VARN" who fit this role perfectly.

Genies and Efreeti are actually guarding the Tomb along with the Defenders. Besides, the mentions about the great power creating genies (Ancients surely are the great power) and genies being servants of the gods (Ancients can be considered gods).

"Ancient even for an efreet, Nefafareen is credited as the first of her kind to abandon her innate powers to wield magic. All efreeti sorcerers have either been taught by Nefafareen or by one of her students. Until recently, she has lived exclusively on the Plane of Fire, traveling to this realm now for an unspoken reason."

So one of the oldest Efreeti in existence has never been outside of the Plane of Fire, and you think Genies (their counterparts) didn't originate from those Planes.

Again, I stated that there are Efreeti and Genies living in the Planes of Fire and Air respectively.

[Corlagon]

It should be around the time of Dark magic discoveries (fifth century), since Ethric invented the Ritual during Terrax's life.

Nobody knows when Terrax liched himself, or how. He could easily have extended his mortal lifespan through magic, like Lord Alamar and Septienna do. Besides, Sandro was supposed to have served this Ethric before SoD came along and changed facts - that would imply that Sandro is supposed to be around six hundred years old, would it not?

(Ancients surely are the great power)

But there's no evidence... This great power could be Shalwend, or the "call of the Conflux", or simply the element of air itself (Genies are a form of Air Elemental)... anything at all. Nowhere else are the Ancients simply described as "a great power", since they're a civilisation.

(Ancients can be considered gods)

So can the Elemental Lords, and the Creators, and the Forces of the Dome, and crazy things like Baa and Moo, and even things that probably aren't gods at all (like "Necros")

Again, I stated that there are Efreeti and Genies living in the Planes of Fire and Air respectively.

Of course there are. But Nefafareen never left the Plane of Fire before the Reckoning took place. Therefore she was born there, and wasn't created by any Ancients. And she is "ancient even for an efreet". Therefore she is probably one of the first Efreeti.

[XEL II]

Nobody knows when Terrax liched himself, or how. He could easily have extended his mortal lifespan through magic, like Lord Alamar and Septienna do. Besides, Sandro was supposed to have served this Ethric before SoD came along and changed facts - that would imply that Sandro is supposed to be around six hundred years old, would it not?

It wouldn't. Before SoD retcon Sandro could become the lich much earlier, not long after Ethric invented the Ritual.

But there's no evidence... This great power could be Shalwend, or the "call of the Conflux", or simply the element of air itself (Genies are a form of Air Elemental)... anything at all.

Add to the "great power" statement the fact that the Genies and Efreeti are guarding the Tomb of VARN...
And the Ancients are very powerful.
Besides, the great power doesn't necessarily about some energy. For example "this mage was such a great power that we *censored* ourselves with fear after meeting with him"

So can the Elemental Lords, and the Creators, and the Forces of the Dome, and crazy things like Baa and Moo, and even things that probably aren't gods at all (like "Necros")

Again, add to the "gods" statement the fact that the Genies and Efreeti are guarding the Tomb of VARN...

Of course there are. But Nefafareen never left the Plane of Fire before the Reckoning took place. Therefore she was born there

The fact that she could have been born there doesn't contrdicts the creation of the Genies and Efreeti be the Ancients. After all, Genies and Efreeti have the ability to breed.

[Corlagon]

It wouldn't. Before SoD retcon Sandro could become the lich much earlier, not long after Ethric invented the Ritual.

?

Terrax discovered Dark and Light Magic in the 400s. The Ritual is a form of Dark Magic. So there is no "much earlier", six to seven hundred years before SoD is the earliest possible

Regarding the Genies' origin... not to be flippant, but it doesn't seem that what you're presenting is any more than pure theory strung together by coincidences, I'm afraid

[XEL II]

Regarding the Genies' origin... not to be flippant, but it doesn't seem that what you're presenting is any more than pure theory strung together by coincidences, I'm afraid

Who said it is just the coincidences? Surely the "gods" statement in Heroes IV is a coincidence, but it was the old team of storywriters working on M&M6 and AB and there are many references to MM6 in AB, so it is highly unlikely that the "great power" statement was just a coincidence.

?

Terrax discovered Dark and Light Magic in the 400s. The Ritual is a form of Dark Magic. So there is no "much earlier", six to seven hundred years before SoD is the earliest possible

You misunderstood me. I mean "much earlier than he did after the SoD retcon".

BTW, the idea that the Enroth was created in c.a. 10000 BS is strung together by the coincidence (although I agree with it). In M&M8 there are no statements about the time of its creation. MotE just says "when the world was created the Elemental Lords were forced into a 10000 years long treaty". And as we know, Terry Ray didn't know the main series (M&M RPGs) storyline.

[Corlagon]

The one and only thing that indicates the Ancients may have created Genies is the fact that they're in the Tomb of VARN. Aenain's bio can't be anything more than a convenient clue because it makes no overt reference to the Ancients at all (like every single other Heroes III bio), and "gods" is ambiguous at best - we have gods in MotE who could be anything or anyone. Plus, if the Ancients created Efreeti as well, I don't understand why they'd choose to ally with the Kreegans.

the idea that the Enroth was created in c.a. 10000 BS is strung together by the coincidence

But the difference is that this is a fact - it is stated outwardly and outright. The idea that Genies are created by the Ancients is never stated, mildly implied (there's just as much, if not more, evidence that they're just incarnations of Air Magic or whatnot).

And as we know, Terry Ray didn't know the main series (M&M RPGs) storyline.

Well, that possibility is not a reason to disregard his storylines or the information in them.

Anyway, I think I need that break now

[XEL II]

Well, that possibility is not a reason to disregard his storylines or the information in them.

Thats the reason to disregard the aspects of his storylines, which contradict the other canon (like the Kreegans being destroyed by the Reckoining, "Kreegan Empire" etc.). And this possibility is terribly obvious. He didn't know about the Kreegan except the information about them Heroes III provides, e.g. if knew M&M8 storyline, he wouldn't state that the Kreegans were decimated by the Reckoining. And the other strange statements and references (fortunately, open contradictions are rare).

Plus, if the Ancients created Efreeti as well, I don't understand why they'd choose to ally with the Kreegans.

Nighonians allied themselves with the Kreegan. Why the Efreeti couldn't?

[XEL II]

There were no Guardians of Terra before Sheltem.

Statues of lions proudly stand in the chambers of the Aft Storage Sector, humming and vibrating with power that seems to come from beneath the metal floor. Their fabrication is such that the memories and knowledge of the Guardians of Terra could be stored within them and preserved for the benefit of future generations. But their original purpose is not the one they’ve come to serve, for the Sleepers of Sheltem now inhabit the lion forms where they keep the knowledge of Terra’s many secrets

The heroes restore Corak's memory core to his body, and with his aid face Sheltem in battle. However, the mad Guardian escapes and heads for the world of Terra, but not before the four heroes manage to save the CRON from his machinations.

Actually, it wasn't Sheltem, but the copy of his personality, controlling the Square Lake and guarding CRON's control room with his monsters, Elementals and Demons. Sheltem himself escaped soon after putting Corak in stasis in his cave. Corak didn't take part in the battle in the Square Lake.

[Corlagon]

I didn't say he took part in it. Besides, Sheltem is Sheltem is Sheltem. I've played MM2 as well you know

[XEL II]

Besides, Sheltem is Sheltem is Sheltem. I've played MM2 as well you know

But this wasn't the real Sheltem.
You said "with Corak's aid".

[Corlagon]

He rewarded them at Mount Farview and gave them advice. That is giving them aid. Aid doesn't mean he personally fought Sheltem or helped them crack the cryptogram The poster just asked for a summary, I'm very sorry for being vague.

[Avonu]

There were no Guardians of Terra before Sheltem.

Statues of lions proudly stand in the chambers of the Aft Storage Sector, humming and vibrating with power that seems to come from beneath the metal floor. Their fabrication is such that the memories and knowledge of the Guardians of Terra could be stored within them and preserved for the benefit of future generations. But their original purpose is not the one they’ve come to serve, for the Sleepers of Sheltem now inhabit the lion forms where they keep the knowledge of Terra’s many secrets

Many ages ago, Sheltem did employ vagabonds to tread the ways of Terra so they might learn its secrets. Once they had learned much and travelled far, he stole their souls and imprisoned them here. These souls, the Sleepers of Sheltem, will confess their knowledge to any that touch the items in which they have been imprisoned.

Within these chambers are housed eight crystal lions, intended by the Ancients to be the receptacles of the knowledge gained by the Guardians of Terra. It was planned that when one of these great entities reached the end of his life, he would choose one to replace him and fuse his soul into the lion’s that the Guardian’s knowledge not be lost.

Once came here Foerdhal the Erudite to scry the secrets that had been rumored held in these strange halls. But as he learned, so the Sleepers of Sheltem sought to possess mortal form once more. Crowding together in Foerdhal’s mind they drove him mad and in his rampage he destroyed much of this underworld.

You know, you could read again my post on page no 6, esspecially these red texts.
Sheltem was a Guardian when VARNs landed on Terra (texts about sinking VARNs and CRON) it's no doubt but do you think he was like mortals (ageing and death from natural causes?). Why he should need fuse with this datebase? Why should Ancients create this device for "misguided mechanism" (as Dragon Pharaoh describe him)?

[XEL II]

Sheltem was a Guardian when VARNs landed on Terra (texts about sinking VARNs and CRON) it's no doubt but do you think he was like mortals (ageing and death from natural causes?). Why he should need fuse with this datebase? Why should Ancients create this device for "misguided mechanism" (as Dragon Pharaoh describe him)?

"It was planned" doesn't mean "it was done". And the official cluebook (an enclosed document for M&M3) directly states that the Eight Lions were used for another purpose. Besides, "reach the end of his life" could reffer not only to the death of old age, but to being destroyed or like that. In this case, the Lions are back ups for the Guardian's memories if something will happen to him.

[Corlagon]

Xel, you know the storyline of Warriors and Shifters, don't you? Could you summarise the contradictions between both games and each version, since I think it was Demilich who mentioned that there are weird inconsistencies between them (Shifters is futuristic, Warriors is medieval IIRC). He also mentioned a contradiction-killing timeline he was going to post, but never did

I've only played both versions of Crusaders and GBC Warriors (which is basically Crusaders' story with Warriors' characters), but I'm interested in the other games in case they affect Crusaders' story or characters at all (it was mentioned somewhere that Drake's corpse appears in one version of Warriors, I think) and the role the Kreegans play in Shifters. I'd be very grateful if you could do me this favour

[Demilich]

Ininially I planned to post Ardon timeline after finishing Dragon Rage, but it seems, it never happens. I haven't found any mention about "Ardon as game world" in the game, and I don't have a manual to check it out.

So I think I'll compile a timeline based on Crusaders (PS), Warriors (PS2) and Shifters (PS2)