MM History question

[Corlagon]

But this is not correct! Gauldoth doesn't just suggest it, he outright states it many times!

"What I found on the other side wasn't some distant castle or even another world as I had suspected. It was an entirely different plane of existence not unlike the Elemental Planes. If I had to give it a name, I would've called it the Plane of Death."

"Mardor has learned from his spies that my one-armed zombie captain, Hadrin, wasn't destroyed at Hadrin's Stand. Instead, Kalibarr imprisoned him on the Plane of Death where he will suffer for all eternity."

"It is good to be back in the real world.

I may not be the tool of destruction I once thought I was. In all my haste to escape that dark realm, I didn't realize until now that the Plane of Death is the embodiment of the pure destructive force. In all things, there exists both destruction AND creation. Even in me."

Prove him wrong, otherwise he is right!

[XEL II]

Well, guess you right
You agree this creature Kalibarr served was Necros? Any guesses why he moved from that Kreegan world he was banished to in CoMM to the Plane of Death?

[Corlagon]

Yep, I agree on that.

I don't know why he went to the Plane of Death. But he didn't have the skull for the Deadwood Staff when he was drawn into the Kreegan Gate - maybe he went there to find it. Also, he is a Necromancer who sold his soul to dark gods - perhaps he was just more "at home" in that Plane.

But I'm unsure

[XEL II]

Hmmm, maybe that skull was of the Kreegan upper echelon breeder? Necros' purpose was to gain powers of the Kreegan and the Ancients.

[Corlagon]

There is artwork:



I don't know who is who in this image, but that skull is probably the one Gauldoth mentioned. It could be anything.

[XEL II]

About SoD. First six of its campaign happened a year after the Succession Wars.
"New Beginning Campaign" was a years after the Succession Wars and there was a short time between it and "Rise of the Necromancer" campaign.
"Hack and Slash" campaign was obviously around the same time with "New Beginning".
"Birth of the Barbarian" campaign was not long before "Rise of the Necromancer" (in "Birth of the Barbarian" it was mentioned that Vidomina became the Necromancer and in "Rise of the Necromancer" we see how she travels to Deyja with Sandro).
"Elixir of Life" was around the same time with the first three campaign (Sandro mentions in "Unholy Alliance" that Gelu's quest for the Elixir of Life was during Sandro obtaining his artifact sets).
"Unholy Alliance" starts off concurrently with the end of 'Rise of Necromancer".
"Specter of Power" campaign was after the Kreegan arrival and before Nicolas Gryphonheart's death. It seems to be in 1163 or 1164.
As you can see, this creates the contradiction. According to AB, Gelu was found by Morgan Kendel in 1150 (during Catherine's original tour of duty when she was 16). If the first six SoD campaign were in 1155 (a year after the Succession Wars) Gelu would be 5 years old in SoD. Explanation to this: a retcon. Gelu was around 18 in SoD and was found by Kendel before Catherine's tour of duty. It isn't the first SoD retcon, Sandro's biography was partially retconned (another Ethric was made his former mentor).

Elemental Lords didn't create CRON. But they created the land within CRON. In History of CRON it it specifically stated that Acwalandar and Water Elementals came a century after the creation of CRON. Maybe coming of the Elementals to CRON was caused by the Ancients who probably needed it for some experiment, I'm not sure.

Non-Kreegan "demons". I compared them (M&M1-2/4-5, load screens and intro in CotU) to the Kreegan (M&M6-7, some portaits from Heroes III, Malustar). Demons indeed have some similitaries to one kind of the Kreegan. Kreegans have different appearances and their skin colors include red, yellow, blue, green. Demons have some similiar features to the red Kreegans, but they don't look exactly like the Kreegan (except for Xeron, who is half-human). So, there is no reason for them to not be one of Ancient-raised races with whom the Ancients seed the worlds (Angels are also among these races). And they can't be considered same Enemy as the Kreegan by the Ancients, since Kreegan and demons are separate races.

[Corlagon]

Okaaaay...

Elemental Lords didn't create CRON. But they created the land within CRON.

With no substance, how can there be a Nacelle in the first place...?

As you can see, this creates the contradiction. According to AB, Gelu was found by Morgan Kendel in 1150 (during Catherine's original tour of duty when she was 16). If the first six SoD campaign were in 1155 (a year after the Succession Wars) Gelu would be 5 years old in SoD. Explanation to this: a retcon. Gelu was around 18 in SoD and was found by Kendel before Catherine's tour of duty.

Try again. My revised research -

Catherine was born in 1134 A.S. She became a Captain around the age of 16. We can thus assume that Gelu was found around 1150 (possibly born around 1147, as he was a baby), during her original tour of duty.

If we assume SoD took place 10 years before RoE, and RoE took place in 1166, this means he was 9-10 years old in the Elixir of Life campaign... not reasonable.

Sandro undermined Gelu a lot, calling him "a boy" and "a snippet" during his campaign, so we can take it that Gelu was not older than about 18 or 19 during SoD either.

Assuming Gelu was born in 1147, push Elixir forward to about 1164, and this places Gelu at the ages of 17-18 during his first campaign.

No need for any retcons.

Also:

"Elixir of Life" was around the same time with the first three campaign (Sandro mentions in "Unholy Alliance" that Gelu's quest for the Elixir of Life was during Sandro obtaining his artifact sets).

I think you are going to need to cite this. I have found no such indications anywhere.

So, there is no reason for them to not be one of Ancient-raised races with whom the Ancients seed the worlds (Angels are also among these races).

There are many logical reasons, plenty of which are terribly obvious. Also, Angels may or may not be among these races. You don't know, I don't know, but Greg Fulton knows.

And they can't be considered same Enemy as the Kreegan by the Ancients, since Kreegan and demons are separate races.

They can (by the people), if they look strongly similar to Kreegans and start terrorising the world's predominant human nation. The fact that they are separate races is immaterial.

[XEL II]

With no substance, how can there be a Nacelle in the first place...?

No substance? There was some substance in it, when it was created, according to the History of CRON. VARNs and CRONs are ships (CRON is the ship carrying VARNs).

Try again. My revised research -

Catherine was born in 1134 A.S. She became a Captain around the age of 16. We can thus assume that Gelu was found around 1150 (possibly born around 1147, as he was a baby), during her original tour of duty.

If we assume SoD took place 10 years before RoE, and RoE took place in 1166, this means he was 9-10 years old in the Elixir of Life campaign... not reasonable.

Sandro undermined Gelu a lot, calling him "a boy" and "a snippet" during his campaign, so we can take it that Gelu was not older than about 18 or 19 during SoD either.

Assuming Gelu was born in 1147, push Elixir forward to about 1164, and this places Gelu at the ages of 17-18 during his first campaign.

No need for any retcons.

It is specifically stated that it was a year since the end of the Succession Wars (in "New Beginning"). There was the short time between first and second maps of "New Beginning (Gem "started to adapt" to life in AvLee in the second map). BTW, Restoration Wars started in the early 1165 (Catherine left for Erathia in January and ended in August 1167 (Archie's diary).

I think you are going to need to cite this. I have found no such indications anywhere.

Check out the map where Sandro repels the Erathian-AvLeen-Krewlodian attack on Deyja (without four heroes). I don't have the English version of SoD at the moment.

There are many logical reasons, plenty of which are terribly obvious.

They can (by the people), if they look strongly similar to Kreegans and start terrorising the world's predominant human nation. The fact that they are separate races is immaterial

Well, there are other species among the Ancient-seeded races, which are hostile to the humans (just look at VARN 4), like wild and monster animals and sometimes plants.

[Corlagon]

No substance? There was some substance in it, when it was created, according to the History of CRON. VARNs and CRONs are ships (CRON is the ship carrying VARNs).

Yes, the VARNs are terraforming platforms. So what, the Elemental Lords formed a crust around the CRON? I don't see how they could create "land within CRON", judging from the MM2 map (which shows a floating continent-like landmass not unlike XEEN). So you think there's a ship inside that land? I think the land is the ship.

It is specifically stated that it was a year since the end of the Succession Wars (in "New Beginning"). There was the short time between first and second maps of "New Beginning (Gem "started to adapt" to life in AvLee in the second map).

Er, I know. Your point? Gem's campaign doesn't link to Gelu's. They only cooperate when Unholy Alliance starts.

BTW, Restoration Wars started in the early 1165 (Catherine left for Erathia in January and ended in August 1167 (Archie's diary).

That's fine. It doesn't affect my findings.

Check out the map where Sandro repels the Erathian-AvLeen-Krewlodian attack on Deyja (without four heroes). I don't have the English version of SoD at the moment.

Here is the only text on Gelu from that mission:

"Your source in the Ranger's camp has reported back with information about the fourth of your opponents. This one is another interesting individual, a white elf named Gelu. At first you thought he might be an albino, but the flaming red hair says he's a half-breed Vori Elf. This Ranger is part of an Erathian special forces unit operating in AvLee. He investigated the death of Lord Falorel, the vampire who had successfully impersonated an AvLee lord... until you poisoned Falorel for becoming too powerful. Now you'll have to take care of this pesky Ranger, who once did you a little favor by keeping the AvLee troops busy."

There's no mention of the artifacts, Gem or Crag.

Well, there are other species among the Ancient-seeded races, which are hostile to the humans (just look at VARN 4), like wild and monster animals and sometimes plants.

I may be mistaken here, but do you really think every sentient creature on every world originates from the Ancients? You don't think that might have something to do with the internal environment and evolution of the world / Nacelle, and not the Ancients themselves?

Lol, for example I don't see how or why the Ancients would seed VARN-4 with Troglodytes, Gnolls and Centaurs. The only definite seeded races we know of are Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Goblinoids (as stated in MM6).

[XEL II]

Well, Gem's campaign ended shortly before the start of "Rise of the Necromancer", same with "Hack and Slash". "Unholy Alliance" started with the ebd of "Rise of Necromancer. Since Gem's campaign was in 1155 (a year after Succession Wars) that makes "Unholy Alliance", "Hack and Slash", "Birth of the Barbarian" (since we see Vidomina travelling to Deyja in "Rise of the Necromancer"), "Rise of the Necromancer" and "Elixir of Life" (since Gelu is already an officer in the Forest Guard in "Unholy Alliance") happening also happening around this time.

That's fine. It doesn't affect my findings.

Yeah, I just pointed that out

I may be mistaken here, but do you really think every sentient creature on every world originates from the Ancients? You don't think that might have something to do with the internal environment and evolution of the world / Nacelle, and not the Ancients themselves?

Lol, for example I don't see how or why the Ancients would seed VARN-4 with Troglodytes, Gnolls and Centaurs. The only definite seeded races we know of are Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Goblinoids (as stated in MM6).

Well, the seedships are loaded with races "created" (or rather "raised") by the Ancients. There weren't any statements suggesting that Humans, Elves, Dwarfes and Goblinoids are the only such races (in M&M6 it was stated in the legends about Crossing that all races came with "the ship" [VARN MCMIV]). M&M5 directly states that there were not only humanoids on VARNs. Of course, some species could originated on the seedships, but they should have evolved from the creatures which were already there.

Yes, the VARNs are terraforming platforms. So what, the Elemental Lords formed a crust around the CRON? I don't see how they could create "land within CRON", judging from the MM2 map (which shows a floating continent-like landmass not unlike XEEN). So you think there's a ship inside that land? I think the land is the ship.

VARNs are seedships, which cargo is terraforming platforms (the land). CRON is a type of ship larger than VARN, which can carry VARNs. Elementals created the land within CRON similiar to that within VARNs.

[Corlagon]

Well, Gem's campaign ended shortly before the start of "Rise of the Necromancer", same with "Hack and Slash".

As far as I'm aware, this is uncertain. After Sandro's betrayal, Gem may well have spent years in AvLee before Lord Falorel was killed.

VARNs are seedships, which cargo is terraforming platforms (the land). CRON is a type of ship larger than VARN, which can carry VARNs. Elementals created the land within CRON similiar to that within VARNs.

Well I knew that But maybe you mean land outside or without CRON, not within? The MM2 map shows nothing but land in a cuboid, continent-like shape. So if there is land within CRON, all of CRON is formed from land.

Not to mention -

"For twenty more years the elementals attempted to overcome the earthen landmass of Gralkor the Cruel. They failed miserably and the Emperors of Earth assumed command of what would become CRON."

"What they came up with is what we know as the physical land of CRON."

There weren't any statements suggesting that Humans, Elves, Dwarfes and Goblinoids are the only such races

"The legend of the Crossing is more than a thousand years old, but that doesn't stop people from repeating it from time to time. The legend says that we all*, and that even includes the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins, came from the same place on a great ship that carried us across the void between the stars."

*a human states this

There definitely weren't any statements suggesting that there are any other seed-races, Demons inclusive.

[Marzhin]

"The legend of the Crossing is more than a thousand years old, but that doesn't stop people from repeating it from time to time. The legend says that we all*, and that even includes the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins, came from the same place on a great ship that carried us across the void between the stars."

*a human states this

There definitely weren't any statements suggesting that there are any other seed-races, Demons inclusive.

Though, saying it "includes" elves, dwarfs and goblins is not the same thing as saying it is "limited" to those races. After all, the person also states that all came from the ship

[XEL II]

"The legend of the Crossing is more than a thousand years old, but that doesn't stop people from repeating it from time to time. The legend says that we all*, and that even includes the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins, came from the same place on a great ship that carried us across the void between the stars."

*a human states this

There definitely weren't any statements suggesting that there are any other seed-races, Demons inclusive.

"We all" is definetly about all races (he was talking not only about humans and not only about Elves, Dwarfes and Goblinoids, since he said including. After all, there are monsters and animals on VARNs. Demons can very well be such monsters. They share some similitaries in appearance with the red Kreegans, but the Ancients could easily inform the colonists that no monsters on VARN are the Kreegan.

As far as I'm aware, this is uncertain. After Sandro's betrayal, Gem may well have spent years in AvLee before Lord Falorel was killed.

In Gem-Gelu map Gem receives the answer from Ethric, so "Unholy Alliance" starts off where "Rise of the Necromancer" ends. And "Rise of the Necromancer" starts shortly after "Hack ans Slash" and "New Beginning". I don't think Sandro waited for years to kill the new Deyjan king and set Vilmar on his place.

Well I knew that But maybe you mean land outside or without CRON, not within? The MM2 map shows nothing but land in a cuboid, continent-like shape. So if there is land within CRON, all of CRON is formed from land.

Not to mention -

"For twenty more years the elementals attempted to overcome the earthen landmass of Gralkor the Cruel. They failed miserably and the Emperors of Earth assumed command of what would become CRON."

"What they came up with is what we know as the physical land of CRON."

I mean land within CRON. CRON's map doesn't show it being among the stars (while XEEN's maps do), it shows four Elemental Planes in its corners.

Though, saying it "includes" elves, dwarfs and goblins is not the same thing as saying it is "limited" to those races. After all, the person also states that all came from the ship

Second that

[Corlagon]

"We all" is definetly about all races

"It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so. Therefore, it is so."

(he was talking not only about humans and not only about Elves, Dwarfes and Goblinoids, since he said including.

Actually, I would think the very opposite - since they only included a few races, they weren't talking about everything on the face of the world. The peasant didn't say "including Demons" or "including Gnolls" or anything of the sort, hence as far as we know, and as far as we can assume, the Crossing didn't include them.

the Ancients could easily inform the colonists that no monsters on VARN are the Kreegan.

Or, far more easily, the Demons are hostile creatures from a realm of the Dead - the Underworld - who attempt to invade any planet or nacelle they can find. As such, they're not connected to the Ancients.

And "Rise of the Necromancer" starts shortly after "Hack ans Slash" and "New Beginning".

Not necessarily. How do you know New Beginning didn't come a few years before Hack and Slash? Sandro can't be in two places at once. It's like:

New Beginning -> directly after Heroes II
Hack and Slash -> some years later
Rise of the Necromancer -> directly after Hack and Slash
Unholy Alliance -> directly after Rise of the Necromancer
Spectre of Power -> some months after Unholy Alliance
Restoration of Erathia -> some months after Spectre of Power

Which makes more sense, a real explanation or a retcon?

I don't think Sandro waited for years to kill the new Deyjan king and set Vilmar on his place.

I don't think that either.

I mean land within CRON. CRON's map doesn't show it being among the stars (while XEEN's maps do), it shows four Elemental Planes in its corners.

Well, the Earth's Plane's boundary does show part of the Void. I don't know whether or not we should take this at face value.

Second that

It's possible. Possible =/= canon You're going to need some indisputable evidence regarding which races did and didn't come from the Ancients {i.e. the MM6 quote, the LotA quote about the Elven Homeworld} before we can make assumptions about Angels, Demons etc

Besides, the planet was created nine thousand years before the Crossing, that's plenty of time for beasts to evolve (Lizardmen) and such.

[XEL II]

Actually, I would think the very opposite - since they only included a few races, they weren't talking about everything on the face of the world. The peasant didn't say "including Demons" or "including Gnolls" or anything of the sort, hence as far as we know, and as far as we can assume, the Crossing didn't include them.

Please... You really think that Enrothians will say "and that even includes the elves, dwarfes, goblins, orcs, ogres, dragons, halfings [and so on naming all the races of Enroth]"? Saying "we all came with the ship" and stating that this is not only humans is more than enough for the people he talked to to understand what he mean.

Well, the Earth's Plane's boundary does show part of the Void. I don't know whether or not we should take this at face value.

Hmmm, I also noticed that the Earth Plane looks like a round planet. Maybe thats because of its similitaries to the soil of the Earth-type planets.

Not necessarily. How do you know New Beginning didn't come a few years before Hack and Slash? Sandro can't be in two places at once. It's like:

New Beginning -> directly after Heroes II
Hack and Slash -> some years later
Rise of the Necromancer -> directly after Hack and Slash
Unholy Alliance -> directly after Rise of the Necromancer
Spectre of Power -> some months after Unholy Alliance
Restoration of Erathia -> some months after Spectre of Power

At the end of "New Beginning" Gem sends a message to Bracada for Ethric about Sandro. In the beginning of "Unholy Alliance" Ethric responses her about Sandro's artifacts. In "Rise of the Necromancer" we see Ethric trying to stop Sandro, so it is highly unlikely that there were years between the end of "New Beginning" (Gem's message to Ethric) and Ethric's response to Gem. If not for this, your explanation would work

Perhaps. But you're going to need some indisputable evidence regarding which races did and didn't come from the Ancients {i.e. the MM6 quote, the LotA quote about the Elven Homeworld} before we can make assumptions about Angels, Demons etc

I made a reference to a quote from M&M6 about all races ("we all" while talking not only about humans is pretty much about all races) of Enroth coming with the Crossing. And just as Marzhin said, "includes the elves, the dwarves and the goblins" doesn't mean "limited with the elves, the dwarves and the goblins".

Or, far more easily, the Demons are hostile creatures from a realm of the Dead - the Underworld - who attempt to invade any planet or nacelle they can find. As such, they're not connected to the Ancients.

We are yet to have solid proof that the Underworld is a separate plane and not the caverns and tunnels under Erathia as it described in CotU.

[Corlagon]

Please... You really think that Enrothians will say "and that even includes the elves, dwarfes, goblins, orcs, ogres, dragons, halfings [and so on naming all the races of Enroth]"?

Please... I think that "he" would say "that even includes the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins and even more" if that's what "he" had meant.

Besides, Dragons didn't come to Enroth via the Crossing

Saying "we all came with the ship" and stating that this is not only humans is more than enough for the people he talked to to understand what he mean.

You don't know what "he" meant in the first place. He said "we all came from this ship". He was a human talking to other humans. Therefore he was referring to humans, and the other races he then mentioned.

Lol it's detailed in the lore, you've gotta accept it

so it is highly unlikely that there were years between the end of "New Beginning" (Gem's message to Ethric) and Ethric's response to Gem.

Well, it's not that unlikely. Ethric was either in Bracada (seemingly) or in Enroth (possibly) when Gem sent the letter. Not only could sending the letter to either location have taken time in itself, but Ethric also ammased quite a few allies (one of whom was Jeddite, who was probably all the way over in Nighon at the time). Also, there is the matter of tracking Sandro. Seems Gem wasn't able to scry him, so Ethric probably took his time with that too.

It's convulted, but it makes more sense than a simple retcon (a.k.a. changing solid fact)

that all races ("we all" while talking not only about humans is pretty much about all races) of Enroth came with the Crossing.

"It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so. Therefore, it is so."

And in a flash of lightning, four races amazingly become all races!

"includes the elves, the dwarves and the goblins" doesn't mean "limited with the elves, the dwarves and the goblins".

Prove that all the other races came from the Ancients and you'll have my kudos.

We are yet to have solid proof that the Underworld is a separate plane and not the caverns and tunnels under Erathia as it described in CotU.

We are yet to have solid proof that the Demons are a race seeded by the Ancients exclusively upon one known planet and potentially three known nacelles, who survived the Crossing without killing anybody or being killed, and miraculously found their way from Enroth to Antagarich and chose a very specific network of caves as their only hideout in the entire world, therein gaining the ability to steal souls from a place which may or may not really exist.

Lol, we're back to the spiral-shaped debate. It's an endless, pointless clash between facts and fictional possibilities.

[Avonu]

Shortly, two things:

1. Crossing - Not all races from Enroth came to this planet by VARN - minotaurs were created by Warlocks, same with hydras, manticores and probably more creatures (personally I think that gryphons and centaurs are too one of races created by warlocks or other mages).

2. Gem and Ethric - as usual Sandro manipulate her. He said her half-true, that his master Ethric (true) was wizard of Bracada (false). She sent letter to Bracada but IIRC she never took answer from them (why she should if real Ethric wasn't wizard but warlock from Nighon?). That's my opinion based on SoD texts.

[XEL II]

Please... I think that "he" would say "that even includes the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins and even more" if that's what "he" had meant.

"We all, including the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins" is pretty much "the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins and even more".

Besides, Dragons didn't come to Enroth via the Crossing

There were dragons on VARN 4, a seedship of the same type with that which seeded Enroth (VARN MCMIV).

You don't know what "he" meant in the first place. He said "we all came from this ship". He was a human talking to other humans. Therefore he was referring to humans, and the other races he then mentioned.

Following this logic, the elves, the dwarves and the goblins are humans o_O

Prove that all the other races came from the Ancients and you'll have my kudos.
[...]
We are yet to have solid proof that the Demons are a race seeded by the Ancients

I presented the thing I consider a solid proof for this (M&M6 quote about the Crossing), yours about the Underworld?

Well, it's not that unlikely. Ethric was either in Bracada (seemingly) or in Enroth (possibly) when Gem sent the letter. Not only could sending the letter to either location have taken time in itself, but Ethric also ammased quite a few allies (one of whom was Jeddite, who was probably all the way over in Nighon at the time). Also, there is the matter of tracking Sandro. Seems Gem wasn't able to scry him, so Ethric probably took his time with that too.

I doubt it took him 8 years (between 1155 and 1164).[/b]

[XEL II]

1. Crossing - Not all races from Enroth came to this planet by VARN - minotaurs were created by Warlocks, same with hydras, manticores and probably more creatures (personally I think that gryphons and centaurs are too one of races created by warlocks or other mages).

Well, the races created by the humans (Warlocks) are also indirectly from Crossing. Besides, we are talking about the races whose origin isn't linked somehow to the Crossing.

2. Gem and Ethric - as usual Sandro manipulate her. He said her half-true, that his master Ethric (true) was wizard of Bracada (false). She sent letter to Bracada but IIRC she never took answer from them (why she should if real Ethric wasn't wizard but warlock from Nighon?). That's my opinion based on SoD texts.

Gem send a message to Ethric to Bracada and he received it and responded.

[Avonu]

Gem send a message to Ethric to Bracada and he received it and responded.

Can you post it? I don't remember this event.