HoMM III: Best level 3 creature

[Muszka]

Of course not. You're still comparing the wrong units. Dragon Flies works fine against shooters. Grand Elves works fine against almost everything else.

The idiocy is that Efreet Sultans work better than Dragon Flies against shooters, yet JJ refuses to rush them 6 Efreet Sultans would allow one to destroy otherwise untouchable ranged stacks (eg. Throng of Marksmen), yet they're somehow not worth rushing.

I agree with you all the way Gaidal Cain

@topic - I find it surprising no one has considered that Cerberi and Royal Griffins are out of the build chain. Like, Cyclops are great units, but you don't deploy them in general because you don't need them to access Ancient Behemoths.

Eferets? Again? They are lvl 6 not lvl 3, nor lvl 2 nor lvl 1. This is childish. The poll is about lvl 3 not any other.
I say that Royal Griffins' only competants are Cerberi, and I don't particulary mean the one on one (or many vs. many) fights. The Rgriffins are the best 'shooter blockers' since you can absorb their retaliation, thus makeing a shooter halfway useless. With highest HP and Growth and Unlimited Retal, I wonder why was I the onlyone voting them thus far?

I agree GC in that 20-30 Dragonflies can have difficulies defeating 100 of walking dead in the first two weaks, without support and without losses, and I know, that such kind of neutrals can be wiped out (without support and losses) only by Cerberi and Grand elves.
But if we take like this the Grand Elf will win only over the Orcs and Water E, with fights on limit with Golem and Evil eye.
I'm also avere of the thing that if I could choose 15 3rd lvl troops on the start of the map, I'd start with Elves. They are excelent for Creeping as long as they don't need to fight anything with 8 or bigger speed, 'cos then you won't be saved a bunch of centaurs. But as the weeks pass and one heads for the end of game, they prove to be real good.
When playing against human, and in the battle I see his 300 Grand Elves, I'll surly tend to send something to block them, and if that something is Griffins, the GE are anihilated.
As for flies, they can be a jewer with the minimal support.

[Banedon]

Eferets? Again? They are lvl 6 not lvl 3, nor lvl 2 nor lvl 1. This is childish. The poll is about lvl 3 not any other.

I know. What I mean is, if JJ bases his arguments that Grand Elves aren't that good because they cannot take out neutral Grand Elf stacks without much problems, then equally he ought to agree that Inferno should rush Efreet Sultans because Efreet Sultans can take out neutral Grand Elf stacks without much problems. See?

When playing against human, and in the battle I see his 300 Grand Elves, I'll surly tend to send something to block them, and if that something is Griffins, the GE are anihilated.

Wow, 300 Elves take a very long time to muster ... anyway one of the problems with using Griffins to block Grand Elves is that they can't cross the map in a single turn. That'd mean the Grand Elves get at least one shot off, and the Dendroids / Centaurs get the turn they need to barricade the Grand Elves in. That's assuming no Tactics on either side of course.

[parcaleste]

Like someone else pointed - if I have to choose a starting unit it will definetly be GE. DF are badass, yes, but in a battle later in the game you CAN'T guard them wit other (level) creature and expect them to WIN the battle, as the GE will do and with lack (or even without) loses. + what about if one have the Sharpshooter Bow artifact? Bottom line is: if you want quick progress in the beginning of the game you simply need GE; for Fortress I prefer to built and have the Wyvern's Nest instead of the DF in the first week

[Jolly Joker]

I'll try to keep this civilized, even though some don't seem to be able to and always try and mix other things into it.
Once and for all, whether you grade the Efreets up or not has nothing to do with this discussion. The reason why I prefer and advise to not grade them up is that you can sweep the map without the upgrade and can use the money and resources better for other things most of the time.

However, this has nothing to do with the poll here.
When level 1 was discussed, basically the same people who advocated the Cap said the Sprites were too fragile especially against shooters. NOW they argue that Grand Elves are so cool in killing grunts. Great.

I repeat. How much a Grand Elf can kill, depends solely on the amount of their guards; they are good if their guards can support them long enough to kill them. They obviously HAVE a good damage output, but they DEPEND on the number and quality of their guards. That's why Elves a COMBO troop. ALONE they are much weaker.
That cannot be rated as an advanteg, because FOR THIS POLL here it's a trick: the losses that WOULD occur otherwise are transferred to the guards, and what you do here is, giving the Elves the benefit of the protection the GUARDS to, but don't acknowledge the fact that there are losses as well, just not with the Elves, but with the guards.

You can make others better as well. Take Lizzards or Gnolls with you and use them as bait and retaliation stealers and you'll have less losses with Dragonflies. Pointless? Sure, but that is exactly what you do with the Elves here. You take only the attack value of the Elves and transfer HPs and defense to the bodyguards. It's an illusion.

Not that Elves wouldn't be good. But THAT good they are only in combination with other troops, and that's why I say if you rate the Elves high you can forget the poll as it is and instead make a poll like:
if you have a full army and no moral problems, what do you put into each slot: HERE then I think a lot more would put the Elves into the level 3 slot - and there are a lot of good points doing it.
But simply best level 3 it makes no sense.

[parcaleste]

OK, than did someone tried GE vs DF 1 on 1 with heroes with the same stats? I am pretty sure thet GE will make one shot at the DF before they manage to get to them. Let's make the stats with the lowest lvl of damage:

DF have 20 HP - 6 they left with maximum 14HP to the GE. Hit them and deal 2dmg. GE retaliets and does... 3dmg. 15HP for GE - 2 = 13, while the DF now have 11HP and so on

In this case it seems that actually the Hell Hounds are the best creature, cause they dont get any retaliation by other units

[Humakt]

I'll vote for Grand Elves. Those are the major damage dealers on your army, and immediate threat to your opponent when the battle starts. Provided you haven't screwed up earlier and their numbers have been thwarted. I do like Dragonflies a lot though but provided you are able, you just go for the early wyverns.

And being best consists of following factors: Units overall value to to the tactics, logistics and scouting. In that order.

[Gaidal Cain]

GC, I'd thought you were better than that.

Well, having seen your arguments here, I'll take that as a compliment.

Just one point. How good the Elves are, is obviously completely dependent on how many guards are there (which is one of the points you don't seem to grasp. Let's say you have ONE grand Elf and the Ammo Cart. How much will that grand Elf do? Now give that grand eld guards. How much damage will the grand Elf do? IT DEPENDS ON THE GUARDS AND THE LOSSES THEY TAKE. COMPLETELY.

Yes, and? What you don't seem to wish to acknowledge is the fact that Grand Elves + Bodyguards is better than any other level 3 unit + bodyguards.

When level 1 was discussed, basically the same people who advocated the Cap said the Sprites were too fragile especially against shooters. NOW they argue that Grand Elves are so cool in killing grunts. Great.

1. Grand Elves works fine even also against weaker shooters, Sprites don't.
2. Grand Elves can be protected, Sprites can't if they are to deal damage.

[Metathron]

Decided to go with the griffins on this one. They're just a very well-rounded unit and you get a lot of them as well.

The cerberi, elves and flies are trailing a bit behind, in that order.

The elementals are much too pricey for what you get.

[Jolly Joker]

It makes no sense to allow body guards in rating a unit, because this, then, covers the weakness of the the unit. You could say just as well, add the Marksmen to the Griffins and the Griffins are great because a shooter will attack the Marksmen or Archers first which will allow the Griffins to survive the first turn and then kill shooters covering another weakness, while against tougher, higher level grunts the Marksmen will soften up the target for them.

Let's make an experiment here. As a single unit the Evil Eye is comparable with the Grand Elf (albeit the units differ in their characterictics). However, they both have speed 7, they come with the same growth and if you pit them against each other the beginner of the fight wins (which means usually, that if you hit lots of Evil Eyes plundering the underground you'll have losses with your initial Elves/bodyguards army.
Now, as everyone will know, the Evil Eye is a bit useless in the beginning. It's too expensive anyway, as a shooter it deals not enough damage and as a melee unit they are a bit too fragile. So they are supporters. If the starting heroes come with any you may use them as a bit or even as bodyguard (for the Hags, for example).
In the end, though, they are not bad - they will come in high quantities and are not easy to whittle down. The Elves however die fast, either by magic or if another units hits them. They have an outstanding strength, but they have a solid weakness as well which makes them average alone.

Anyway, the Eyes have damage 3-5 (while Elves have 6-10). Now lets give the Evil Eyes 5-7 or 4-8 damage - 2 damage more on average. I know, some here are not interested in the ratings, but for the sake of the example I can compute the rating for that Evil Eye. It would be 12.86 and QUITE a good one.
Compare this Evil Eye with the Elves now. The Elves are STILL dealing more damage, but the Eyes are dealing good damage as well. They deal it in melee. As a unit THIS Evil Eye is clearly better than the Elf (it's more expensive as well).

Now take a look at another unit, the Dwarf. Change the unit. Half the damage to 1-2 and drop the attack to 1. Add 10 HPs and 10 HPs and 6 defense. The unit is pretty useless now - except, that it's the ideal bodyguard for the Elves: stand there, take hits, do nothing and let the Elves shoot - and if Elves are great, this kind of Dwarf would be great as well, because you could argue, well they don't do much damage, but with the Elves behind them they are just great.

I think that it doesn't make sense to rate a unit for the strength it develops in combination with others - except you poll for that: best combo, best army and so on.
This is my point and I haven't seen any convincing point against that.

[Banedon]

I'm not supposed to be replying but I can't help it -

Now take a look at another unit, the Dwarf. Change the unit. Half the damage to 1-2 and drop the attack to 1. Add 10 HPs and 10 HPs and 6 defense. The unit is pretty useless now - except, that it's the ideal bodyguard for the Elves: stand there, take hits, do nothing and let the Elves shoot - and if Elves are great, this kind of Dwarf would be great as well, because you could argue, well they don't do much damage, but with the Elves behind them they are just great.

Give the Dwarves some extra speed (7 or more, preferably) and yes, they'd now be great units. Don't see any problem.

Now, as everyone will know, the Evil Eye is a bit useless in the beginning. It's too expensive anyway, as a shooter it deals not enough damage and as a melee unit they are a bit too fragile. So they are supporters. If the starting heroes come with any you may use them as a bit or even as bodyguard (for the Hags, for example).

That's just wrong.

I think that it doesn't make sense to rate a unit for the strength it develops in combination with others - except you poll for that: best combo, best army and so on.

Why doesn't it make sense?

[Jolly Joker]

I think that it doesn't make sense to rate a unit for the strength it develops in combination with others - except you poll for that: best combo, best army and so on.

Why doesn't it make sense?

Because when you ask for best level 3 unit you ask for best level 3 unit and not for potentially best level 3 unit in combination with one or more other units, heroes, spells, artifacts or whatever else, all things you will likely have and see (not only guards). If you do that the "complete" units like Dragonflies have a disadvantage - because highly specialized units get a higher rating, obviously: you rate their strength only and don't rate their weakness because their weakness is covered by another.
All of this should be considered, of course, but it should not taken for granted. Even with bodyguards Grand Elves have Def 5 and 15 HPs only, and speed 7 is not so great either. One serious attack on them and they are toast.

And your "is just wrong" about the Evil Eye speaks just volumes.

[Banedon]

Because when you ask for best level 3 unit you ask for best level 3 unit and not for potentially best level 3 unit in combination with one or more other units, heroes, spells, artifacts or whatever else, all things you will likely have and see (not only guards). If you do that the "complete" units like Dragonflies have a disadvantage - because highly specialized units get a higher rating, obviously: you rate their strength only and don't rate their weakness because their weakness is covered by another.
All of this should be considered, of course, but it should not taken for granted. Even with bodyguards Grand Elves have Def 5 and 15 HPs only, and speed 7 is not so great either. One serious attack on them and they are toast.

You must be playing Rampart badly if your Grand Elves are getting hit. That won't happen except against shooters (which you hope to neutralize quickly, either by your own Ranged fire or else by charging the Centaur Captains across to block them), or creatures that are faster than your Centaur Captains and is positioned such that it can hit the Grand Elves before any of your creatures get to move (not very likely). Small wonder you think Grand Elves aren't that good. In case you start arguing that shooters are very common, I'll point out that Efreet Sultans are apparently not good to rush, even though they are ruthless against shooters.

And what do you mean Dragonflies are disadvantaged? They're good level 3 units mostly because of their speed, which allows them to move across the battlefield and neutralize enemy shooters on turn one, or give you the chance to Teleport / move your heavy artillery up there to attack with. In other words, they're good only because they work in conjunction with the rest of the Fortress army. Surely you don't expect to destroy whatever army you're fighting with just Dragonflies!?

And your "is just wrong" about the Evil Eye speaks just volumes.

Unless you wrote that sentence specifically for Impossible difficulty, it does indeed speak volumes of how abject your Dungeon play is. I'm not going to argue that though until I get the chance to post the results of me playing Inferno.

[Pitsu]

OK, than did someone tried GE vs DF 1 on 1 with heroes with the same stats? I am pretty sure thet GE will make one shot at the DF before they manage to get to them. Let's make the stats with the lowest lvl of damage:

DF have 20 HP - 6 they left with maximum 14HP to the GE. Hit them and deal 2dmg. GE retaliets and does... 3dmg. 15HP for GE - 2 = 13, while the DF now have 11HP and so on

In this case it seems that actually the Hell Hounds are the best creature, cause they dont get any retaliation by other units

There is no way that a GE does 3 damage to dragonflies in retalizarion. GE damage in melee is 1.5 - 2.5. Additionally, dragonflies have high defense and weakness has taken GE attack down -> GE won't do more than 1 damage. 1 DF eats 1 GE from every position.

[Gaidal Cain]

It makes no sense to allow body guards in rating a unit, because this, then, covers the weakness of the the unit.

Nope. It covers some of the weknesses. As I said previously, you can't cover Sprites with bodyguards. You can't cover Dragonflies with bodyguards, either. A "big" weakness that is easy to cover is not half as bad as a "smaller" one which you can't.

[Paulus1]

Try to see it the other way around. In order to maximize the GE potential, you must sacrifice damage potential of two other stacks to guard them.

The Dragon flies can stand on their own, and doesn't take away damage dealing potential from other units. The same thing applies to Sprites as well.

You must be playing Rampart badly if your Grand Elves are getting hit.

Does all your rampart heroes have Tactics? Otherwise fast flier units (like dragonflies) - or morale boosts from ground pounders - can make it across before your tank guards can close ranks around the GEs.

[Jolly Joker]

You must be playing Rampart badly if your Grand Elves are getting hit. That won't happen except against shooters (which you hope to neutralize quickly, either by your own Ranged fire or else by charging the Centaur Captains across to block them), or creatures that are faster than your Centaur Captains and is positioned such that it can hit the Grand Elves before any of your creatures get to move (not very likely). ...

... it does indeed speak volumes of how abject your Dungeon play is. I'm not going to argue that though until I get the chance to post the results of me playing Inferno.

Pathetic. You don't "hope". Because, when you stumble upon Lots of Evil Eyes, when you are plundering the underground - this was the example I had a post before that - there is none. You KNOW they will shoot before the Elves (or are YOU such a bad player you seem to think I am?). If you face lots of Evil Eyes there is no blocking - your Elves will be hit and you will lose between 2 and 6 Elves provided your hero has defense 5 already. You could reduce that with a casting, but you don't cast as a matter of fact, since your Ivor won't even have a spellbook.
But, yeah, I usually play Rampart as bad as Dungeon, that's why I'm sure everyone is waiting eagerly what your Inferno play results are, because your Inferno results will doubtlessly prove how bad I play Dungeon.

For the disadvantage of "complete" troops like DFs - I mean that in the rating. For Elves is argued, they are a highly specialized unit with high ranged damage output, but fragile and hopelessly inferior in melee - which means they have a blatant weakness. It's argued, that the weakness is covered by bodyguards and that all losses the bodyguards take the Elves have nothing to do with (poor bodyguards ). A complete unit like the DF which is its own unit (and spare me the rubbish about how they are unable to do this and that) is disadvantaged IN THE RATING then. It's so good that it doesn't need help and will take minimal losses in the course of their roamings - not against shooters like Elves but against tougher stuff, for example Iron Golems, stuff the Elves will deal with.

But look at Muszka. He builds Lizard Warriors and goes with D-Flies and Warriors. Now what? If you do that, are they worse than Elves supported by Caps?. Not really. The Lizards soften the Golems and others up while the Flies will take every dangerous shooter managable.
So if you allow Elves with supportingguards you have to allow Flies with supporting shooters as well. Which makes no sense when rating a single unit. Clearer now?

[Banedon]

Try to see it the other way around. In order to maximize the GE potential, you must sacrifice damage potential of two other stacks to guard them.

The point however is those other stacks guarding the Grand Elves don't have much damage potential anyway (how much damage can a single Centaur do, for example?). So while you have to sacrifice the damage potential of those stacks, it is more then compensated for by the extremely high damage Grand Elves can deal.

In order to maximize Archangel potential, you should try very hard not to get them retaliated upon by (say) Ancient Behemoths. Therefore you use your Halberdiers to soak up the retaliation - that's what Halberdiers are good for late-game anyway. You sacrifice the damage potential of those Halberdiers in return for the undiminished might of your Archangels, but it's a trade no player would balk at.

Does all your rampart heroes have Tactics? Otherwise fast flier units (like dragonflies) - or morale boosts from ground pounders - can make it across before your tank guards can close ranks around the GEs.

There aren't many creatures that can move across in a turn. Dragon Flies are the only low level creature who can (and then they must split into three stacks). The others - Archangels, Archdevils, Efreet Sultans - aren't the kind you'll fight in the first / early second week. As for morale boosts, the probability is very small, and given how fast Grand Elves decimate enemy stacks the ground pounders won't have much chance to get that morale boost (and, even if they do, they may opt for some reason not to hit the Grand Elves - go figure).

There is no way that a GE does 3 damage to dragonflies in retalizarion. GE damage in melee is 1.5 - 2.5. Additionally, dragonflies have high defense and weakness has taken GE attack down -> GE won't do more than 1 damage. 1 DF eats 1 GE from every position.

Somehow I sense TT is going to laugh at this

EDIT: @above - so much for being civil. Guess it goes back to the Inferno game in a weeks' time.

Oh, one more thing.

But look at Muszka. He builds Lizard Warriors and goes with D-Flies and Warriors. Now what? If you do that, are they worse than Elves supported by Caps?. Not really. The Lizards soften the Golems and others up while the Flies will take every dangerous shooter managable.

Of course. The Lizard Warriors deal far less damage than Grand Elves. Supported Grand Elves can overcome Efreets and Thunderbirds and Hydras quick and easy. Lizard Warriors cannot. What does that tell you of the relative strengths of Lizard Warriors and Grand Elves?

[Paulus1]

In order to maximize Archangel potential, you should try very hard not to get them retaliated upon by (say) Ancient Behemoths. Therefore you use your Halberdiers to soak up the retaliation - that's what Halberdiers are good for late-game anyway. You sacrifice the damage potential of those Halberdiers in return for the undiminished might of your Archangels, but it's a trade no player would balk at.

But you have just traded in two of your retaliation taking units for protecting the Elves... thus leaving your Dragons, Pegasi and Unicorns to take the full retaliation.

There aren't many creatures that can move across in a turn. Dragon Flies are the only low level creature who can (and then they must split into three stacks). The others - Archangels, Archdevils, Efreet Sultans - aren't the kind you'll fight in the first / early second week. As for morale boosts, the probability is very small, and given how fast Grand Elves decimate enemy stacks the ground pounders won't have much chance to get that morale boost (and, even if they do, they may opt for some reason not to hit the Grand Elves - go figure).

Thus making your whole tactic luck - or Save/reload - dependant, on walkers not getting that morale boost.

Of course. The Lizard Warriors deal far less damage than Grand Elves. Supported Grand Elves can overcome Efreets and Thunderbirds and Hydras quick and easy. Lizard Warriors cannot. What does that tell you of the relative strengths of Lizard Warriors and Grand Elves?

That really depends on numbers. I can set up a thousand scenarios, proving you flat out wrong. You need to put numbers on that kind of statements. I could just as well say that peasants can kill a bunch of dragons but mighty gorgons can't. Its just a matter of stacksize.

[Banedon]

Well, the context of this discussion is the expansion phase - so no Dragons, Pegasi or Unicorns, nor 1,000-stack Lizard Warriors. In the expansion phase one might have 25 Grand Elves (start with Ivor) on the start of the second week. That's going to outdamage any reasonable stack of Lizard Wariors that can be achieved then.

But yes, morale boosts can seriously hurt the tactic. Nonetheless, the probability of that happening is really quite small - you need a stack that is strong enough to survive some rounds of really painful Grand Elf fire, and then it has to get good morale immediately after killing a blocker, and then it still has to be strong enough that it can both kill several Grand Elves and survive the soon-to-come Centaur Captain attack. I must say this doesn't happen often to me. So while the probability is there, it's also small enough that supported Grand Elves is still a fearsome creeping army.

[Jolly Joker]

You don't start with Ivor for the sake of this poll! Or do you see a hero mentioned in the poll question?
Moreover, this is not a poll about what combination of troops ans tactics allow best creeping in the first 2 weeks under all or certain difficulty levels.
So this is all irrelevant. The question is, what level 3 unit is best!

But as GC stated (who you so agree with) when he voted Centaur Caps best level 1: they have the best stats. Grand Elves haven't. Not by any stretch of imagination.