Of Necropolis and "unbeatableness"

[Derek]

The inferno would have to have in excess of 200 demons just to survive the attack. I know this is possible, and probably easy enough to do, but the fact is that's quite a few demons just to lose.

I don't understand the final sentence. Can you explain? Thank you.

What I meant was that it would be easy for an Inferno army to have in excess of 200 demons. Hope that helps.

Csarmi is right. I 'farmed' most of the skels off of the AI/map. The map is set up with one AI and then a human opponent, and I just farmed them until I was ready to go on my killing spree against the 'human' opponent. I know Galthran, or Isra for that matter, would be much better at farming skels, but I like Thant much better. I suppose we should factor that in, as Isra would have had many, many more by this point at that map. 1k more would not be too much to say...

The argument about the Necro is that it is able to survive the early game with its huge amount of skels and vamp lords so that it can last until the late game with its huge skel army. 1k skels in the first month can be done on most maps, and that is not going to be easy to stop with a ranged army. You block your shooters and I will just slaughter them with the liches. And it is not as though the rest of the Necro's units are bad, aside from zombies/wraiths.

I have managed to get 350 skel warriors on week 2 day 7. One would have to have a huge army of ranged units to effectivly deal with that amount of units so early.

[SmokingBarrel]

Sigh, just so happens that rampart knocked me out when I was playing Necropolis...

So...Inferno is also overpowered in large maps?

[Vulcanic]

Derek, you sure? I'm talking about the 'Warords' map. About that amount of skeletons on week two, that's a bunch, I'll admit. alright, so it is week two, day seven, and I'm down there with grand elves and near 100 or beyond centaur captains. Nah I don't think you can bust the Rampart army. And about the Vampire Lords, well, I guess I have to take it down first before your skeletons. I'll just split the Centaur captains and maul your creatures in.

[Banedon]

I believe my Ivor and his assorted army would annihilate 350 Skeleton Warriors.

Regarding Pestilence Lake, I think you misunderstood me. You farmed that amount of the map and AI - not the map and Human Intelligence. If there were a human player on the map, the human would actively seek out and destroy AI heroes as well as push just as fast as you would. He would destroy a whole lot of neutral stacks as well as AI heroes that have gone to you. If there were a human player around, you may not have 5.5k Skeletons; maybe around 3k only - a much more managable amount (especially if your hero is Thant, not Galthran).

[Derek]

Vulcanic,
I know the 'Warlords' map quite well. Aside from the obvious fact that it is all grass, giving the rampart a nice advantage, it should be noted that the Necro would be doing well enougn by that time also. You must consider if you had 100 centaur captains then they should have twice your amount in skels, and they should also have liches, and probably death knights too. It would simply be a matter of blocking the elves, easier said than done I'll admit, but an AI opponent will certainly lose against you well enough.

Banedon,
Point taken. 3.5k is much more manegeable than 5.5k. However, cutting 2k away from me seems a bit harsh...but I suppose I'll let it slide for the sake of argument. Still, 3.5k would be able to do around 7k damage. So instead of roughly 40 Gold Dragons dying you lose only a measly 28. I cannot see that being too much of a drop in extreme damage dealing.

Again, I chose Thant because he would allow me to reanimate undead troops and not just make the skels stronger. Although the skels are a huge part of the Necro army I do think that getting back 30 vamps a turn is a valuable addition to any army(of course I have my buffs and such up already).

Your rampart comment falls into much the same vein as Vulcanic's comment about the 'Warlords' map. I shall reiterate: the necro can function in the early game, but later on they will get a huge advantage from the vamps/skels and they cannot be easily dismissed by just elves. Early on the Rampart is tricky to stop because of their elves(especially as Ivor).

[Banedon]

Well considering you farmed a lot of Skeletons too from the human player (as played by the Artifical Intelligence) I think 2k Skeleton Warriors is a fair amount.

Performing some calculations too,

Skeleton Warrior attack = 6
Gold Dragon defense = 27
Therefore Skeleton Warrior attack damage reduction = (27-6) * 2.5% = 52.5%
Skeleton Warrior base damage = 1-3 (2 taken as average)
Skeleton Warrior damage = 2*3500 = 7000
Damage done after damage reduction = 3325 damage
Gold Dragon deaths = 13

I should note too that the Gold Dragons won't be so foolish as to place themselves in range of your Skeleton Warriors. In a battle, the Rampart player will be careful to take the retaliation of the Skeleton Warriors before attacking with massed forces.

One more thing. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that once the middle-game commences, there are generally few - if any - neutral stacks left.

[csarmi]

Well that's why you play with Galthran.
Skeleton Warrior's attack: 13
Gold Dragon's defense: 27

so 65% damage done for 4550 and 18goldies to die (without offense)

Skeleton Warrior's attack: 13
War unicorn's defense: 13

so 120% damage done for 7000 damage (63 war unicorns)

It practically means that you lose one stack to the skeletons (per combat round). I simply wait each round till skeleton turn, teleport it next to your strongest stack and kill it. I might not have to do it btw, since skeleton warriors have 6 speed.

Using Thant as a main is wrong for several reasons:

- he starts with crappy skills
- he levels up badly (both primary and secondary skill-wise)
- he does not give attack/defense/speed increase to skeletons
- he starts with bad troops

his only advantage can be that some early fights are easier; still, if you can't take the early fights with vampires, skeletons and wraiths (and zombies! yes they are not bad), you should work on your fighting skills

you can always get a Thant coming or an Isra... but IMO you can't give up on Galthran (though the death knight with necro speciaty is to be considered too)

[Banedon]

While Galthran is busy casting Teleport, his opponent may cast Clone. Now Clone would not only deal heavy damage, it would also absorb the retaliation! Is that not a threat? Even if the Skeleton Warriors incapacitate the strongest stack on turn one, there are still 6 more stacks to go with the Skeleton Warriors smack in the face of all 6 of them.

However, I must say such a force will be deadly on the battlefield. The real question is: will it ever be achieved? Despite the evidence for it, I'm still sceptical. How do you raise 100 Skeletons every turn?

[csarmi]

Look go ahead and try it yourself
Well if I have a little time I might show you how.

3500 skeletons have 21k hp btw... 24.5k with a simple ring of health (that you are likely to find on a large map)

You are able to kill 12 skeletons/dragon, 4 skeletons per unicorn, 3 skeletons per elf.

[Derek]

The calculations seem to be a bit strange. I can only say this: my skels, the 5.5k, were able to kill 10 Rust Dragons with one hit. I did not have any crazy artifacts. And besides, 13 Gold Dragons(if we're going to accept it) is still far too much to lose from any stack, anywhere.

Everyone seems to be down on Thant...perhaps expected though. I suppose we should factor that in to the fact that I did not use Isra and get the additional skels per battle.

Csarmi is right about the skels. I did have a ring of health, and it makes the skels a nigh impossible thing to deal with. They really could kill whole stacks with whole attacks. There are other stacks that the Necro can use besides their skels too. Often times this is overlooked, but it is a fact. Yes, if I teleport the skels and they kill the Grand Elves there would be six other stacks for them to deal with, but there are six other stacks that the Necro has not used! That many skels is the deciding factor for the Necro to be so good.

And I cannot comment about which maps have enough neutrals or which ones do not. I can only say that any time that I play as the Necro I am able to mass skel armies, strictly off neutrals, that are able to obliterate the enemy. I have played hotseat before, and I have been able to do this against intelligent humans also.

[Vulcanic]

Dread knights and liches by week 2? If you can manage that and still have your ton of skeletons I'll be impressed.

[Derek]

Dread knights and liches by week 2? If you can manage that and still have your ton of skeletons I'll be impressed.

Easily have the liches, but the Knights can be more difficult on certain maps. I would expect any good Necro to have the vamps and liches as quickly as possible due to the lackluster power of their lower tier units.

[Banedon]

I'm afraid I can't try it for myself since I lost my Heroes 3 CD and my computer was formatted (OS change).

But maybe I should express it this way. Necropolis quickly becomes overpowered if and only if it manages to raise such large armies of Skeleton Warriors. No one should let that happen, right? With Necropolis being relatively weak in the early game, the human player would pressure Necropolis, stopping such liberal expansion. Under such pressure and the resource disadvantage that accompanies it, will Necropolis still be overpowered?

[csarmi]

Necro is not weak at the start of the game either. Vampires and wraiths are good for clearing the map and skeletons/walking deads are useful too. And once Vampire Lords come in, you have a force that can't be stopped by neutrals (if played right).

And necro is completely unbalanced, just as diplomacy. Not always overpowered, but enough reason to play with "no necro" rule.

[Derek]

Csarmi is right.
Vamp Lords are more than a match for any neutral, and the enemy must be intelligent enough to deal with them. They are not easy to deal with and are a very deadly force in the early game(week 2 vamp lords, which I have done on expert, is very hard to stop.)

I think the Necro is good on any map, but it is unbeatable on certain maps.

[Banedon]

What if it's a human? Week 2 Vampire Lords scarcely threaten (for example) Efreet Sultans. You may defeat all neutral stacks, but then all races can amass just as efficient an army by week 2.

There's also the problem of actually being around to upgrade. When I tried All For One, I noted I had no time to upgrade the Centaurs - even upgrading the Elves required careful chaining. To upgrade to Vampire Lords would necessitate you staying near your castle, slowing down expansion. With maps generally ending by Month 2, Necropolis wouldn't have the time to build too powerful a Skeleton stack.

csarmi, I'm surprised at you using Wraiths (which deal horrible damage anyway) and Walking Dead, which are terribly slow (absolutely contrary to your normal blitz style).

[csarmi]

I'm using all I'm given. Wights are fast (speed 6 on dirt), they work in a great combo with vampires for taking out early shooters. They are perfect when fighting small stacks of shooters because of their regeneration. Meanwhile, the vamps will do the damage.

Walking deads are slow and weak, but they are good fodders (and even damage-dealers) in early fights. Of course I try to avoid buying them. However, I simply don't care if they die (since i won't use them in the long run) and the small amount i get from the start is great.

I am suprised you keep coming with efreet sultans, of course they are good against the map, but nothing special against humans. And who cares what would you do with vampires vs efreets week 2. Week 2 you are normally fighting the map, not your opponent.

[Banedon]

Walking deads are slow and weak, but they are good fodders (and even damage-dealers) in early fights. Of course I try to avoid buying them. However, I simply don't care if they die (since i won't use them in the long run) and the small amount i get from the start is great.

The unfortunate thing is, they slow down your movement speed whether they die or not. If I play Rampart, for example, I won't take along Dwarves even if I start with 100 of them (unless they are needed for a single tough fight). I find it surprising that you, of all people, would take along Walking Dead.

I am suprised you keep coming with efreet sultans, of course they are good against the map, but nothing special against humans. And who cares what would you do with vampires vs efreets week 2. Week 2 you are normally fighting the map, not your opponent.

You must be playing on a Large map. I find Week 2 to be a time when armies first clash and the side with the stronger army presses an advantage.

Anyway the army with Efreet Sultans would still move faster than the army with Vampires (or [shudder] Walking Dead), and thus expand faster.

[csarmi]

An army with efreet sultans move at the same speed as an army with vampire lords (at least under most circumstances, there is a little theoretical difference).

You have some strange ideas about adventure movement btw. For example, what makes you believe that walking dead would slow me down? Slow what down, actually? Are you sure you know enough about chaining, handling early fights and using several heroes and armies?

Just for sake of curiosity, how many heroes do you buy day 1?

[Banedon]

3; beyond that I have no Gold.

If you're going to chain here and around, then your other heroes can't be doing anything too worthwhile. In my test on the map All For One, all my heroes were busy (and not busy with chaining).

An army of Efreet Sultans will move faster than the army with Vampire Lords, because the army with Vampire Lords will necessarily raise Skeletons, which gives it a slower movement speed.