Of Necropolis and "unbeatableness"

[Nucleon]

Getting back to the subject; Nucleon generally agrees with Banedon about the Necropolis' unbeatableness, to a certain point.

In a map where Diplomacy is banned, so should be Necropolis. Diplomacy (as well as the Morale penalties if foreign troops are mixed with the Dead) is the equilizer here. Once again, it's up to the mapmaker.

[SmokingBarrel]

Derek, I don't think I've heard of Tiva before, whats the hero's special?

But even if you have all of that skeletons, they'll just get mauled by the lvl 7 units, like what happened between Banedonand Vulcanic.

[csarmi]

Getting back to the subject; Nucleon generally agrees with Banedon about the Necropolis' unbeatableness, to a certain point.

In a map where Diplomacy is banned, so should be Necropolis. Diplomacy (as well as the Morale penalties if foreign troops are mixed with the Dead) is the equilizer here. Once again, it's up to the mapmaker.

Diplomacy never equalizes anything. It's just too unbalanced and makes everything depend on pure luck.

[Banedon]

Derek - I'm of opinion that though Necropolis can field a huge army of Skeletons in the final battles, the other races' advantages more than compensate. I think you'll agree that a fully built Castle town produces more powerful creatures per week than Necropolis; therefore, though Necropolis can bring more Skeleton Warriors to the battlefield, Castle's inherent advantages turns things around.

Nucleon - I'm not saying Necropolis is overpowered, but I do think Diplomacy is unbalanced. Far as I can tell, I can beat Necropolis without Diplomacy.

If that experiment is fundamentally flawed, I wonder how we should deal with the situation? csarmi wrote that Necropolis is obliged to attack once it begins to run out of food, therefore I get the impression that Necropolis relies on rushing, not late-game duelling.

[csarmi]

You get the wrong impression. it's the other way around! If necro is left alone for 3-4 weeks, it builds up such a huge advantage you have no chance to match that. If you can't rush the necro player (on small maps everything is a rush), you already lost the game. On a normal large map you'll have a legion of skeletons by week 4. That's impossible to overcome. Try a large random map (pick a ToH) template and start playing it as necro. It is not only too overpowered, but even sooo boring to harvest skeletons.

We can give it a try btw. You pick a random template (L map, no undergound, 2 players, hard monsters) and we both play 4 weeks against the map at 130%. I pick necro, you pick anything you wish to.

[Banedon]

On the other hand, Necropolis will round out of food. The game I played against Vulcanic and SmokingBarrel resulted from just such a deficiency ( I sound like a nutritionist). I didn't have the creatures to farm against, leaving me with 2000 Skeleton Warriors against his 30 Ancient Behemoths.

Unfortunately, I can't give anything a try right now. I switched operating systems and formatted my computer. Then I realized I'd lost my Heroes 3 disk I only have the Armageddon's Blade CD (that was how I used Heroes 3 in the past test)...

Maybe you should try All For One seriously, completing two week's worth of gameplay. You may find it a poor map, but it's the only map where I have personal experience now.

[Nucleon]

Derek, I don't think I've heard of Tiva before, whats the hero's special?

Eagle Eye.

[Nucleon]

Nucleon - I'm not saying Necropolis is overpowered,

And that's precisely what Nucleon agreed on. He is not afraid of the Necropolises.

but I do think Diplomacy is unbalanced. Far as I can tell, I can beat Necropolis without Diplomacy.

Diplomacy is as okay as Necromancy if the map is well done. If Nucleon makes a map where one of the starting factions is a Necropolis, He will pay as much attention to its surroundings as He gives to His neutral stacks' attitude for the Diplomats.

Necropolis is a town with much crappy troops, and Necromancy is an equilizer to that. So yes, it is a powerful skill, but it is needed in this case, 'lest the Necromancers would be wiped off the map in no time.

Regarding this; Does the latest versions of HOMM3 still can give Necromancy to Heretics and Witches? They could before...

[Gaidal Cain]

Regarding this; Does the latest versions of HOMM3 still can give Necromancy to Heretics and Witches? They could before...

Nope. That was probably changed in one of the very first patches, even before AB went gold.

[Derek]

Derek - I'm of opinion that though Necropolis can field a huge army of Skeletons in the final battles, the other races' advantages more than compensate. I think you'll agree that a fully built Castle town produces more powerful creatures per week than Necropolis; therefore, though Necropolis can bring more Skeleton Warriors to the battlefield, Castle's inherent advantages turns things around.

I just played the map 'Pestilence Lake' and I was able to field an army of 5567 skel warriors in month 3! What faction could have been able to deal with that? They were dealing over 10k damage per hit to most units, even to the mighty azure dragon they could kill 4/5 a hit. Such a huge amount of skels did not have to fear anything...a 'ring of health' gave them such an advantage over the enemy. At that point teleport and like spells make it so the skels really cannot be avoided or disregared. I am talking about killing 15-20 chaos hydras in a hit! Nothing to brush off that's for sure.

Comments?

Csarmi,
I was able to field a legion of skels in a month also. The larger the map, the larger the advantage of the Necro.

[Banedon]

I vaguely remember the map "Pestilence Lake". It's a map that comes with Shadow of Death, right? Difficulty "Impossible", too.

5k Skeleton Warriors is no doubt threatening, but just how good are they? What will you do if your opponent is Castle, with 2 powerful Ranged stacks and a flyer so fast that it can annihilate your Power Liches in a hit? Or Rampart? Both cases would result in the Skeleton Warriors going down to Ranged fire. Dungeon and Tower can probably pull the same off.

Maybe Fortress would have a problem...but Fortress is already weak to Necropolis (just ask Bandobras Took). Inferno and Stronghold may have some problems, but I don't get the feeling that things grow impossible. One can always exploit the one-retaliation-per-round rule and gang the stack down. Inferno will probably have a large army of Demons, too.

[Derek]

I vaguely remember the map "Pestilence Lake". It's a map that comes with Shadow of Death, right? Difficulty "Impossible", too.

5k Skeleton Warriors is no doubt threatening, but just how good are they? What will you do if your opponent is Castle, with 2 powerful Ranged stacks and a flyer so fast that it can annihilate your Power Liches in a hit? Or Rampart? Both cases would result in the Skeleton Warriors going down to Ranged fire. Dungeon and Tower can probably pull the same off.

Maybe Fortress would have a problem...but Fortress is already weak to Necropolis (just ask Bandobras Took). Inferno and Stronghold may have some problems, but I don't get the feeling that things grow impossible. One can always exploit the one-retaliation-per-round rule and gang the stack down. Inferno will probably have a large army of Demons, too.

Expert haste, or teleport for that matter, allows for the skels to attack any stack easily on the battlefield. The fact is any ranged stack besides Titans would be killed instantly by this large number of skels. It just is that as the game progresses the skels become an incredible threat, most neutrals are stupid and go after them(dragon utopias are pathetic because of this), and Thant, spellpower of a measly 10, can reanimate about 230 a round. It boils down to the fact that for the 'final battle' I will have a stack of skels that will easily be able to kill anything in one hit. Oh yes, did I mention the fact that I can clone them? Yep, since they would be slower than most units I would be able to create a cloned stack of them and attack for 10k damage without losing anything. Seems easy enough in my book...maybe not unbeatable, but certainly in the higher ranks.

I have played as the Fortress numerous times and yes, they do have quite a problem with the Necro. However, this was the AI so it didn't matter who they played as. Victory was assured at the onset.

The inferno would have to have in excess of 200 demons just to survive the attack. I know this is possible, and probably easy enough to do, but the fact is that's quite a few demons just to lose.

[SmokingBarrel]

The inferno would have to have in excess of 200 demons just to survive the attack. I know this is possible, and probably easy enough to do, but the fact is that's quite a few demons just to lose.

I don't understand the final sentence. Can you explain? Thank you.

But how about some maps with not enough creatures to farm up an army of skeleton warriors? Like the map which Banedon and Vulcanic(and me) fought, he managed to get only 2k(or was it 3k) skeleton warriors. The ancient Behemoths came, and down all of the went.

If you use the spell teleport, they'll get mauled even nicer. So I guess expert haste is better.

[Vulcanic]

Alright, 5k skeletons are defenitely scary. but what map have you played to amass that ton of bones? One time I was playing the maps "Warlords" and I was playing Rampart(Red) while the enemy Necropolis(On the north part of the southwestern field) and I charged down there with Grand elves. then I confronted him and he lost the war. In the beginning before you have the time to get that many skeletons, somebody could have already nailed you in.You shouldn't have too many skeletons in the first two weeks, should you?

[SmokingBarrel]

One time I was playing the maps "Warlords" and I was playing Rampart(Red) while the enemy Necropolis(On the north part of the southwestern field) and I charged down there with Grand elves. then I confronted him and he lost the war.

That sure kinda sucked for me>_<

[Banedon]

Hmm. Come to think about it, 5k Skeleton Warriors will be extremely painful, especially if the commander is Galthran.

But I can think of a possible flaw. Pestilence Lake is a map where you play against the AI. Against a fellow human, you won't be able to raise Skeletons from enemy troops, because your opponent won't give you any (or, if he does, it'll be 1 Skeleton or 2)! Will you still be able to raise such an army?

[csarmi]

I believe he raises most against the map. And remember, he can go after you week 4 with his skeleton legion (maybe 1500 skeleton warriors; with Galthran (definitely better than Thant)), he does not have to wait 3 months.

And 5.5k skeletons with an adequate hero is not painful, it's practically unbeatable, unless the AI controls them.

[SmokingBarrel]

Maybe most maps does not have enough food...I hope...for the Necropolis to raise that amount of skeletons...

Week 4 1500 skeletons?! Incredible. Thats about 1 week 200 skeletons or so skeletons. *sigh* maybe Necro is undefeatable...1 day 25 skeletons or so...man, this seems possible. Unless it's just like realm of chaos where there isn't enough creeps...oh man oh man oh man...

[Vulcanic]

What I really meant was week two. By then i should have about 30 or so Grand elves, and your 500 skeletons aren't going to help you. after all, they also move slower than centaur captains. So the Centaur captains get the firsst attack after two shots from the grand elves. What other creatures can you get by week two in the 'Warlords' map?

[SmokingBarrel]

Vulcanic, buddy, I don't think anyone can manage 500 skeletons by week 2.. The second thing is that 30 grand elves can't repel 500 skeleton warriors, can it?