On Nival and Heroes

[winterfate]

@JJ: Well, I did go a bit overboard by implying that H4 was great too...but, even though there were many things I resented about it...it had some great ideas.

For example:

1. Consumables for Heroes.
2. Caravans.
3. The different (and more realistic, IMO) combat system (I really enjoyed such abilities like First Strike and how they played into battles.)
The actual implementation of the combat system was horridly sloppy, but it had potential.

The perfect battle system, IMO, would be to use H5's initiative system and H4's combat system (units attack simultaneously, ranged retaliation, etc.)

If you disregard 3d, which is simply a sign of the times and nothing game specific, then 5 is a lot more 3 than 3 was. 5 is better than 3 in every major game design decision. The races are better designed, due to the fact that each race has a racial (something that H 3 should have already had after the introduction of Necromancy in 2), 5 has a brillant skill system - in H 2 we have 13 skills plus Necromancy, in H 5 we have 12 plus, currently, 7 racials, while they added sub-skills instead of simply throwing in more like in H 3 and so on.

True. But the actual races in 5 aren't as balanced as the ones in 3, IMO. Even in 2, there was a sort of balance (even though the units had wildly differing power levels...Crusaders vs Black Dragons comes to mind.)

Which is the problem: While 3 was great it left a lot to desire as well

I don't agree with that. I believe that 3 was, and still is, a stupendous game. Maybe I'm in the minority...but, until Nival finishes working out the kinks...5 < Heroes 3.

For all the Nival bashing I tend to do...I'll admit that 5 is a great game too, especially because of such things like the racials. But, as of now, I like 3 more.

[Jolly Joker]

Which is the problem: While 3 was great it left a lot to desire as well

I don't agree with that. I believe that 3 was, and still is, a stupendous game. Maybe I'm in the minority...but, until Nival finishes working out the kinks...5 < Heroes 3.

For all the Nival bashing I tend to do...I'll admit that 5 is a great game too, especially because of such things like the racials. But, as of now, I like 3 more.

I think you fail to see my point. My point is, that Heroes 3 is a brillant game, simply because it hooks you so well and truly - but there are doubtful design decisions with regard to the way H 2 was. For example:
H 2 had an individual building-and-upgrading tree for each town (0, 1 or 2 upgrades for each level, individually styled for each town); H 3 made it uniformly 1 upgrade for each town (with many upgrades not really adding something new at that).
H 2 had those rather useless skills already like Mysticism and Eagle Eye - and H 3 not only kept them it introcued more when it had made them all useful.
And so on.
Which is why H 3 isn't all better than H 2, even though it should have been.

Strangely enough I find that H 5 clearly has the best game balance. For one thing, in H 3 I beat EVERY magic hero with a might hero, provided the game isn't all too short, 2 weeks or something, simply because I can have all the advantages of the magic hero with a might hero, but not vice versa - that's not what I call balance. And between the races, well, I'll beat everyone with Necropolis as well in a normal, not too short game. And if I put in the Conflux..., but don't let me get started on THAT one.

In H 5 that's not so. The balance between might and magic is a lot better, and each town has the power to dominate - for example, you may have a horrendous army with Necropolis, but it may be dead against a Ranger army with lucky hits on favoured enemies before the undead really get going, while they in turn may just be annihilated by the Destructive Dungeon spell storm and so on. A big difference is, that they are still changing things to get a better balance which was always a big no-no except the 2 changes for Fortress in 3.

[theLuckyDragon]

I think I've seen all these arguments a bajillion times and I do believe I can safely conclude: it's a matter of taste and preferences and personal opinions!

[Jolly Joker]

Not EVERYthing is a matter of taste and opinion and preference. Or do you really think you'll find even ONE who'll say, yes, Mysticism was a great skill in H 2 so there was no reason to change it for H 3?
I'd even think that you won't find many who'd prefer the uniformity of a 1-upgrade-for-all-creatures over individual "upgrade trees" for each town.

[theLuckyDragon]

Yes, of course it is possible to find people who would say that. They're called casual players who don't obsess over how useful a certain skill is. Players who just want to have a few pleasant hours of play and then maybe do something else.

Right now we're talking about concrete games that have been the way they are for a long time and not much can be changed about them (excluding Equi and WoG), so yes, I do believe it's a matter of taste. You like it, fine, you don't, fine again.

I think you should understand that not everybody is as analytical of the games as you are and that some people simply don't care whether H2 was this or that, or H3 was something or other, or H4 brought that but removed the other, etc. etc. etc.

Edit: And yes, EVERYTHING pertaining to playing games is a matter of taste. Everyone has fun in their own particular manner.

[Jolly Joker]

Oh, come on, that's a no-point, because with that point each and every discussion about each and every game makes no sense at all because "some people don't care". If THAT's what matters you can just as well close everything down because, yes, "some people don'tcare".

This board and site is quite obviously NOT for the CASUAL gamer, for those "some people who don't care".

You could just as well say, in the great order of things all this is completely meaningless.

If you think that way, simply stop arguing, please. YOU should understand that it is paradox, to argue on behalf of "people who don't care".

[theLuckyDragon]

The point that I was trying to make was that you repeated your arguments in favor of H5 very much on these boards and I believe the regular posters know them already. So there's no need in trying to defend your point of view out of the blue, because no one was attacking it.

If you think that way, simply stop arguing, please. YOU should understand that it is paradox, to argue on behalf of "people who don't care".

Very well then. Have fun repeating the same things about the games over and over again to the others.

[Jolly Joker]

I hate to beat this dead horse again, but the point wasn't H 5 at all, but all the others.

[Cleanpea]

The horse isn't dead until it doesn't care whether you beat it or not

[jeff]

The point that I was trying to make was that you repeated your arguments in favor of H5 very much on these boards and I believe the regular posters know them already. So there's no need in trying to defend your point of view out of the blue, because no one was attacking it.

If you think that way, simply stop arguing, please. YOU should understand that it is paradox, to argue on behalf of "people who don't care".

Very well then. Have fun repeating the same things about the games over and over again to the others.

Well for all of the arguments you put forth JJ you will not dissuade those of us that prefer H-IV. I thought as you said H3 was a brilliant game in its day. I grew to love H-IV and prefer it in almost all aspects of the game. It's easier to create RPG campaigns that have the story woven into the map. H-V to me was a regression, why because it returned to the H3 experience without drawing on the improvements of H-IV and sorry but there was improvements in the way resources were handled and the caravans. The firestorm from fans finally caused UBI to bring those back, and now I play HOF, but still find it hard to enjoy H-V. I could go on, but all of my arguments like yours have continually been restated. I'll convince no one who has made up their mind; just like you and the H3 crowd will not convince any of us H-IV fans that it was not a good game and one H-V did not match.

[Cleanpea]

What's all this "convincing people" stuff to do with a discussion anyways. No one should stop making their points just because they have been stated before. Forums EXIST for that reason only. That's just my opinion
Edited on Tue, Jun 26 2007, 14:22 by Cleanpea

[Corribus]

Good position!

[Caradoc]

Yay, Jeff. I'm with you 100%. And maybe you, JJ, and I could settle who is really the elder statesman here without actually revealing our ages. Do you remember Howdy Doody?

[Corribus]

Howdy Who?

[Anonymous]

Yay, Jeff. I'm with you 100%. And maybe you, JJ, and I could settle who is really the elder statesman here without actually revealing our ages. Do you remember Howdy Doody?

You mean with Buffalo Bob
I watched as a kid, I don't remember much of it, the was Carabell the Clown as well.

[HodgePodge]

… Do you remember Howdy Doody?

Here's something about Flub-a-Dub & Princess SummerFall WinterSpring.

[Caradoc]

Very good. Did you ever wear a coon skin hat?

[winterfate]

Well this is before my time...

I've never heard of any of these.

I guess this means it makes you guys old...

[jeff]

Very good. Did you ever wear a coon skin hat?

No I watched the Disney Davey Crocketts, but never cared for the hat.

Well this is before my time...

I've never heard of any of these.

I guess this means it makes you guys old...

Yeah, and though I am trying to not grow up; I am afraid another disappointment (from my point of view) in the M&M universe will probably force me to grow up and walk away.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Have some faith jeff. I'm sure they'll (at least I hope) learn from their mistakes with the map editor for Heroes VI.