What's the point of this beta?

[jamsz]

Has anyone even suceeded in finishing a game? All my games and everyone elses I have talked to disconnected rather early into the game. Whats the point of having a open multiplayer only beta when nothing can be tested (and it is already painfull enough to test it in multiplayer). It's quite weird that after months of closed beta testing, not only the game is in such bad shape, but also the online service is terrible. One would have expected that at least parts of the game would be finalized by now, but I fail to see polish in anything but the graphics.

So if the point was to test balance how do we do it without singleplayer to be able to slowly look at things, no simultaneous moves or ghost multiplayer, heck, we can't even examine our heroes and cities during the opponents turns. When am I supposed to analyze the build orders, or unit specifics or hero skills?? Should I stop to read the texts while the opponent is waiting??? Cmmon, the game is already slowed enough due to the 3d engine...

If they wanted to show off the graphics there were better ways to do it and the unfinished state the game is in for the beta will do it more negative than positive. At least for me, it definitely did negative - yesterday I was looking for a shop that ships to my country to preorder, today I'm at firm opinion that I will wait till the release (and this is coming from a pretty big Heroes fan).
[/list]

[ThunderTitan]

Most people seem to be wondering the same thing. Check out the petition: http://www.saveheroes.org/

[Psychobabble]

At least for me, it definitely did negative - yesterday I was looking for a shop that ships to my country to preorder, today I'm at firm opinion that I will wait till the release (and this is coming from a pretty big Heroes fan).

My thoughts precisely. It pains me to say it, but I'm not going to play this game without substantial evidence of improvement in basic functionality.

[Bandobras Took]

Has anyone even suceeded in finishing a game? All my games and everyone elses I have talked to disconnected rather early into the game. Whats the point of having a open multiplayer only beta when nothing can be tested (and it is already painfull enough to test it in multiplayer).

Got the beta last night got into a multiplayer game. Played for four hours before I finally had to go to bed. Nothing disconnected.

It's quite weird that after months of closed beta testing, not only the game is in such bad shape, but also the online service is terrible. One would have expected that at least parts of the game would be finalized by now, but I fail to see polish in anything but the graphics.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the point of any test of an unfinished product is intended to show off a finalized product. That's what a demo is for. This is a beta.

So if the point was to test balance how do we do it without singleplayer to be able to slowly look at things,

You can't slowly look at things in a multiplayer game? My opponent spent about 20 minutes on his first turn.

no simultaneous moves or ghost multiplayer, heck, we can't even examine our heroes and cities during the opponents turns.

That's a good point, unless these ideas are being reworked from their present state anyway, in which case it's pointless to include a feature that's in the process of being revamped. And why do you need to look at your town or hero immediately after you've had a turn? Nothing will have changed since you clicked the "end" button.

When am I supposed to analyze the build orders, or unit specifics or hero skills?? Should I stop to read the texts while the opponent is waiting???

Sounds about right to me. Patience is a virtue. I myself picked up a book while waiting for my opponent. Got some good reading done. I expect to have to wait between turns in a turn-based strategy game.

Cmmon, the game is already slowed enough due to the 3d engine...

A statement like that really needs to be prefaced by "my system meets the requirements." I haven't noticed any slowdown due to graphics, but maybe I'm just lucky.

If they wanted to show off the graphics there were better ways to do it and the unfinished state the game is in for the beta will do it more negative than positive. At least for me, it definitely did negative - yesterday I was looking for a shop that ships to my country to preorder, today I'm at firm opinion that I will wait till the release (and this is coming from a pretty big Heroes fan).

The beta will only have a negative impact for those who are expecting a finished product. I wasn't. I was expecting something in the nature of a test -- Ubi gives us specific aspects of the game to see if they work as well as they think. Most of your complaints seem targetted against the time investment. That kind of argument can't hold up against a turn-based strategy game; they're supposed to take time.

[niteshade6]

Well traditionally when you release an open beta with no NDA....you do want it to be a pretty finished product . Usually this type of thing is reserved for the very final stages of testing.

I'm a bit unclear on exactly what they hoped to accomplish here as well. They probably picked the worst format possible for people to actually get any testing done in. I'm guessing they just decided an open beta would occur after a certain amount of time and decided to go ahead with it even though they weren't ready.

Or perhaps it was a clever ploy to make it so the fans would actually be happy when they announced that they weren't going to make the release date

[omegaweix]

I totally agree with nearly everything, that Bandobras Took mentioned before.....

...this isn't a demo, and a beta can't include the whole package WITH Single player AND videos AND map editor AND....

Though, maybe one tiny little offline scenario would have been nice.... sometimes this sudden ("others") disconnects really pis... annoy me.... playing for 3 hours, slowly building up a decent army.... ans POW, the other player remembers, that he's still got laundry in the machine or something
...

I think that the actual game state is far more elaborated than this beta right now

.... and personally i guess that most of the improvements ( of course those that Nival wanted) from the closed beta are already implemented... but maybe now not (m)any more.... cause there would really really be little time left to do so!

edit: added the word "state"

[jamsz]

Call me crazy, but I don't think the point of any test of an unfinished product is intended to show off a finalized product. That's what a demo is for. This is a beta.

I never said I was expecting a finalized or finished product. I'm just saying I was expecting the portion they are beta testing (i.e. multiplayer) to be a lot more finished. You played a full game - so you got lucky. I played 3 games all three disconnected and everyone that was in those games complained about 2-3 prevoius disconnects. Same on the forums. Also basic matchmaking service functionality is missing, friends not working, duel games staying in the list after being started and not showing number of players already in, many of the multiplayer options not working... do I need continue. To some these may be parts of a finished product, to me it's basic functionality.

You can't slowly look at things in a multiplayer game? My opponent spent about 20 minutes on his first turn.

no simultaneous moves or ghost multiplayer, heck, we can't even examine our heroes and cities during the opponents turns.

That's a good point, unless these ideas are being reworked from their present state anyway, in which case it's pointless to include a feature that's in the process of being revamped. And why do you need to look at your town or hero immediately after you've had a turn? Nothing will have changed since you clicked the "end" button.

I need to look at my town/heroes during the opponents turn so he dosen't have to wait 20 minutes like you did. Most hardcore Heroes players will play with 1-2 min turn limits any way so you won't really have time to plan things during your own turn.

When am I supposed to analyze the build orders, or unit specifics or hero skills?? Should I stop to read the texts while the opponent is waiting???

Sounds about right to me. Patience is a virtue. I myself picked up a book while waiting for my opponent. Got some good reading done. I expect to have to wait between turns in a turn-based strategy game.

Then imho you have some weird way of having fun in a game... Simultaneous turns is the norm in the turn based online games these days, so no, I don't expect to wait. Take it this way, beeing able to use just 1 minute for planning during the opponents turn cuts the duration of a 90 turn game by 3 hours. Tell me that this is not an essential feature that devs should have planed from the start and I can tell you those devs are in deep sh*t.

Cmmon, the game is already slowed enough due to the 3d engine...

A statement like that really needs to be prefaced by "my system meets the requirements." I haven't noticed any slowdown due to graphics, but maybe I'm just lucky.

My system exceedes the requirements and still compared to a hardcore Heroes III game, HV is slow as a snail. Beleive me, I've played enough Heroes III allnighters to know what's fast and what's not. A difference of only a couple of seconds in an action will make hours of difference in an all night gaming session, meaning less turns played, meaining less fun. Less fun = less motivation to play (and purchase). Offcourse, all this has a lot less influence in single player games, but unfortunately we're only testing online multiplayer. Just as an example, not only did Civ 4 streamline the interface to speed-up gameplay, they also have simultaneous turns while (imho) beeing a more complex turn based game.

The beta will only have a negative impact for those who are expecting a finished product. I wasn't. I was expecting something in the nature of a test -- Ubi gives us specific aspects of the game to see if they work as well as they think. Most of your complaints seem targetted against the time investment. That kind of argument can't hold up against a turn-based strategy game; they're supposed to take time.

As already said, open beta = almost finished product. You don't open a beta for any portion of the game untill you're 90% done with it. Again, what's the point of an open beta if not to polish, and you can't polish if you don't have it implemented. And you're completely wrong about the time investment thing... Exactly time investment has been, is and will be the biggest pain of multiplayer turn-based games, so great attention must be payed to features and optimizations that will help reduce that pain. If you can cut down hours just by few simple features, in my book it's inexusible to not have them. So while I did not in any way expect a finished product (been in enough betas), I did expect to see these game design improvements in place. With them missing its normal that I ask why and with release 1 month away, it's normal that my faith in them beeing done is severly shaken.

[jamsz]

...this isn't a demo, and a beta can't include the whole package WITH Single player AND videos AND map editor AND....

But could have and should have included a fully functional multiplayer... (including a fully functional matchmaking service)

[Bandobras Took]

As already said, open beta = almost finished product. You don't open a beta for any portion of the game untill you're 90% done with it. Again, what's the point of an open beta if not to polish, and you can't polish if you don't have it implemented. And you're completely wrong about the time investment thing... Exactly time investment has been, is and will be the biggest pain of multiplayer turn-based games, so great attention must be payed to features and optimizations that will help reduce that pain. If you can cut down hours just by few simple features, in my book it's inexusible to not have them. So while I did not in any way expect a finished product (been in enough betas), I did expect to see these game design improvements in place. With them missing its normal that I ask why and with release 1 month away, it's normal that my faith in them beeing done is severly shaken.

Here we go. From the Readme. Which yes, they do expect you to read before using:

Disclaimer:

Welcome to the Heroes of Might and Magic V open beta!

Before going any further, please bear in mind that this is not a demo but real "work-in-progress" code. Many elements are far from final and some features have not been implemented in this build. For example, the Ghost mode could not be included and we're currently revising the battlefield size (you'll find below a more complete description of missing or unfinished elements). However, despite its limitations you should get a good idea of the gameplay.

Emphasis added.

You'll notice that:
1) They said up front that this is a "work-in-progress" code. In other words, whatever the traditional definition of an open beta, they're telling you precisely what you're getting.

It's possible I'm just lucky. But it's also (more than) possible they need to rework multiplayer by bit. They're finding that out through this beta, if people would treat it that way.

2) You'll notice that they cut out the Ghost Mode for this beta. Either because it doesn't need to be tested or because they're redoing it. The Ghost Mode is what you do during your opponent's turn.

3) They cheerfully included a list of all things you won't find in the beta, if you read a little further down.

By releasing this beta, they're going to get a list of configurations on which the game does or does not work. If the production team wishes, they've now got hard evidence (through saveheroes.org) that their target audience will absolutely not buy a rushed game -- thereby giving them time to fix whatever we find wrong with it. The game has already been pushed back by several months; it wasn't even on their list of March releases, from what I understand. It seems clear that they wanted to test basic internet multiplayer functionality with this -- otherwise they would have included the hotseat mode.

Your original post asked what the point of the beta test is. I answered that emphasis is on the word test. This isn't a marketing device; it's a development/production device. They've never tried to pretend it's anything else.

[Crusard]

otherwise they would have included the hotseat mode

*Cough*

[jamsz]

I won't quote cause this is getting long enough, so just quick comments:

1) They were beta testing (only) multiplayer for months in the closed beta. Am I wrong for having expected mutiplayer to be far more polished?

2) I never asked why ghost mode is not in. I'm asking why the turn based classical multiplayer (which is in) and the matchmaking service are not in a better state (see 1 also)?

3) Again, I never complained about parts of the game that are not in the beta, but rather about missing features/functionality from the parts that are in.

Test of configurations is Ubis QA department job, not the beta testers. If they released the demo (EDIT: typo, should be open beta) in this state intentionaly to get evidence the public doesn't want an unfinished/rushed product, they've done themselves a big disfavor.

So bottom line is, closed beta tests are testing devices. Open beta tests are polish devices. And if you want an open beta test to be sucesful, you talk to the comminunity. You release an unfinished open beta and you keep your mouth shut, you get saveheroes.org, which is not good, period.

[Bandobras Took]

I won't quote cause this is getting long enough, so just quick comments:

1) They were beta testing (only) multiplayer for months in the closed beta. Am I wrong for having expected mutiplayer to be far more polished?

In that case, my only reasonable response is that I'm having no problems with disconnects or crashes. Perhaps they thought it was more polished than it is?

2) I never asked why ghost mode is not in. I'm asking why the turn based classical multiplayer (which is in) and the matchmaking service are not in a better state (see 1 also)?

how do we do it without singleplayer to be able to slowly look at things, no simultaneous moves or ghost multiplayer, heck, we can't even examine our heroes and cities during the opponents turns. When am I supposed to analyze the build orders, or unit specifics or hero skills??

It seems I misunderstood the thrust of your original post. My apologies.

3) Again, I never complained about parts of the game that are not in the beta, but rather about missing features/functionality from the parts that are in.

Again, I thought you had. My apologies.

Test of configurations is Ubis QA department job, not the beta testers. If they released the demo in this state intentionaly to get evidence the public doesn't want an unfinished/rushed product, they've done themselves a big disfavor.

So bottom line is, closed beta tests are testing devices. Open beta tests are polish devices. And if you want an open beta test to be sucesful, you talk to the comminunity. You release an unfinished open beta and you keep your mouth shut, you get saveheroes.org, which is not good, period.

Emphasis added.

Again, though, you seem to be making no essential distinction between a demo and a beta. If it's a beta, I'm going to expect bugs. Even major bugs. Closed or open is beside the point; open merely lets them gain more feedback. The point of the beta is still to highlight errors and bugs, not market the game.

[jamsz]

Demo was a typo, sorry...was supposed to be open beta

[gravyluvr]

I haven't gotten through more than an hour before someone gets disconnected. So I'm going through the Order campaign in HOMM4 while I wait for better HOMM5.

[Boromir]

My point of view is generally similar to the one presented by Bandobras Tuk. You must takie into consideration that this is beta - not the final version. I had lots of problems while trying to start any game and during first three in a row my partner was kiked off during the first turn. I would not complain though, as this is just a beta for tests.
However, is seems clearly that Nival won't be able to finish the game on time, so the petition to delay its release is a good idea.

[Arzang]

I can't find the point of this beta either. the game seems unbalanced but I haven't played normal long enough to make a statement.

duel mode though, is horribly unbalanced. other than that, there's not much contribution for me to do as a beta tester. but who knows, maybe a second draft of the open beta is nigh.

..

maybe it isn't.

[jamsz]

Unbalance is something that is solved exactly by betas. You shouldn't worry too much about it as long as the game is functional. The problem I have and which the original question was aimed at is - How do we test balance when the game is not functional...

Anyway, I got the unofficial hot-seat mod and played thry a game alone. I must say my impressions improved quite a bit, as the game is a lot more stable and finished than the multiplayer makes it look. The overall feeling I had was that the game lacks polish, but is stable enough with most of the features in place (minus the AI, which offcourse is no small part). There are ovbious things missing like some city animations, some effects, even some portraits, but that is to be expected in a beta. Some of the spells/skills seemed to not be working correctly but that is also expected. Overall, it looked great and it seems that if the multiplayer was stable and the little missing features in place, this beta could have provided a solid polish/balancing platform.

BTW, the spell effects, especially the high level ones are truly amazing.

[Boromir]

I found one technical bug in the beta: the particle effects on models during battle sometimes cease to work (for example, the flames covering ArchDevil or on Nightmare's spine disappear for some time). Does anyone know, whom should I report this?
By the way: yes, the spell effects are fantastic (like Meteor Shower). Generally graphics is great. Nightmares and Titans with those lighthnigs around them are awesome!

[jamsz]

You could try the official forums