Mapmakers, Reclaim your Maps

Logan Warbringer · Unread postby **Logan Warbringer** » 23 Mar 2007, 16:20

Silence, this is all about programming. Imagine that for more than a year I even couldn't delete a map from catalogue - the section was incomplete. But since 3 weeks ago we moved to a new greater host, we got a brand new development stuff. I wrote to Angelspit yesterday that I gonna make this Maps section formidable in less than a month or two.

There is still another issue that needs improvement. HeroesPortal was supposed to be an international site and has a 3/4 functional English mirror. But the lack of English-speaking stuff made it very difficult to update it in time. We do update it, but not as often and the forum there isn't as populaced as the Russian one.
Edited on Fri, Mar 23 2007, 09:25 by Logan Warbringer

Corribus · Unread postby **Corribus** » 23 Mar 2007, 16:34

Logan you really have no excuse. When you get a map, for which you do not know the author, you have two options:

1. Post the map without an author and correct the information later.

2. Maintain a policy of only posting maps when you have the correct information.

Option 2 is clearly the fair thing to do. Why post the maps at all when you do not know who made them? There's nothing you can really say to defend it. It's a bad choice. If I ever saw any of my maps over there with no information, I would be quite irate, and justifiably so.

Logan Warbringer · Unread postby **Logan Warbringer** » 23 Mar 2007, 16:55

Corribus

HeroesPortal always used the 1st option, but I guess I'll switch to the second and won't post such maps at all. But who will lose from such a policy? The fans... And since I get some of the maps even renamed in Russian, there will be less good works posted.

Edited on Fri, Mar 23 2007, 10:01 by Logan Warbringer

Starbatron · Unread postby **Starbatron** » 23 Mar 2007, 18:10

I hadn't realized that was the case. If the readme files were deleted by the poster, that is still the responsibility of the poster. However, if the site received those readme files (most likely), then I must retract my statement about it not being piracy. That is most certainly wrong. Even if an author is unknown, intentionally deleting something included with a map is dishonest, even if credit isn't being taken for the creation of the map.

Pol · Unread postby **Pol** » 23 Mar 2007, 18:40

Indeed, readmes should be at least converted to map descriptions (So on the page where you are downloading the map you will also see the readme which was attached and other goodies or left as they are with the map).

Otherwise publishing maps from "unknown authors" is good with me as long as here is intention in adding the right name after is became known (removing map per request of author included).

The good will is always what I count

(And here is.)

Angelspit · Unread postby **Angelspit** » 23 Mar 2007, 18:56

The mandatory readme was a standard established by Astral Wizard, if I am not mistaken, but not all fan sites comply to it for various reasons. Many multiplayer maps are just a compressed .hXm file without any additional information. Sometimes, you don't need any specific information to enjoy the map, but I rarely play any map without reading a summary first.

Logan Warbringer · Unread postby **Logan Warbringer** » 23 Mar 2007, 18:58

I receive less than a 2% of all maps with readme files and those are from Vlaad, Veldrynus, Ururam Tururam and other very well-known mapmakers who send their maps to us too. Check for their works - every map is inside their profiles. Because we didn't plave readmies with maps, fans don't send them with maps.

BTW I'll talk on Monday with mr. Ayreon (new HP chief programmer) about adding reame files.
Edited on Fri, Mar 23 2007, 12:00 by Logan Warbringer

Sir Charles · Unread postby **Sir Charles** » 23 Mar 2007, 19:39

Well, from my point of view, my biggest problem with this system (apparently the now "previous" system) is the fact that maps are being submitted by people who just found them on the internet. They weren't submitted by the authors of the maps. The visitors of HeroesPortals just find them (on CH or whereever) and submit them. Why do they do this? From what I gather it's because of their currency practice and it's used as a way to gain "points" in their contests. I'd suggest to change the contest in a way to gain points in OTHER ways. There are numerous maps out there whose authors don't want their maps posted EVERYWHERE. There are some authors who only want their maps posted to sites they know and approve of. And heck, even some were designed to be exclusive maps for only a specific site.

As for pirating, there are maps on Heroes portal that were made by one person, then edited (massively), then reposted as "made" by a different author. That's a sleazy practice and should be considered stealing IMO. (not stealing by HeroesPortal, but by that "fan"). When we ran into this problem at H3trio.com we permanently banned that "map-maker" and deleted all their maps.

I don't mean to condemn your site Logan, far from it. But I really think you should stop allowing fans to submit maps that THEY themselves didn't design. That will lead to all sorts of problems down the line.

~edit~ And yes, Angelspit is correct. The "mandatory" read-me file was instituted initially at Astralwizard.com. It's a very useful tool for the map-maker and the player both. It allows you to get some basic information about the map without spoiling the map by having to open it in the editor. It can also be used to include tips and even story-background for the author. But in my opinion, the most important aspect of it is the fact that it'll always contain some way to contact the author for feedback.

Edited on Fri, Mar 23 2007, 12:40 by Sir Charles

Silence · Unread postby **Silence** » 23 Mar 2007, 19:47

Well, I see that HP policy has been to accept everything that can be played by any Homm game. And it does not really matter is it the author who is submitting or someone else.I cannot say that I am a big fan of such system, but I admit it has its good sides. Yet I think that when downloading a map from a respected site, one expects to get the complete map and all the information that the mapmakers has found necessary to say. Of course there are maps for wich no readme is necessary. But if the mapmaker has found it necessary to put spoilers or background information into a separate fail, it should accompany the map always. In first Homm games with low scripting possibilities, I have even seen in-game events like "now please read the accompanied txt file chapter two". Is the map complete when this file is missing?

So as Angelspit said, the sites can have different policies. But the map site administrator should, no matter how he gets or posts the maps ensure that these are not missing something that may reduce the enjoyment of the player. If the admin reads through the readme.txt and finds that everything in there is already said anyway, then, well, go ahead and post the map without the useless file. One could say that the site admin is kind of mediator or translator between the mapmaker and the player. Delivering the product to customer. His responsibility is to ensure that nothing gets lost in translation or that no piece is missing from the delivered product. IMO, Heroes Portal has lost some good information by following their policies. But it is never too late to improve.
peace Warbringer

Logan Warbringer · Unread postby **Logan Warbringer** » 23 Mar 2007, 19:51

2Sir Charles

Yes, there were such cases. HeroesPortal is a gaming site. This is in fact a kind of magical kingdom where you can gain wealth, feuds (castles), monsters and artifacts by winning tournaments. Posting the maps give the fans bonus points. Still, if somebody is being caught by sending other person's map, he is first time severely punished and the second time his profile gets disbanded.

I've thought about the shift to grant bonus points only to the best 3 or 5 maps of the month, not ALL of the maps we receive. But such a change in policy does not depend on me either.

Duke Kirinyale · Unread postby **Duke Kirinyale** » 23 Mar 2007, 20:29

Hi everybody from HeroesPortal

A few words about the readmies... Everything that you say here about some maps being incomplete without them is correct. BUT in our case that's not map admin's fault. As Logan already said, it's all about programming. It is simple: the map section is programmed in such a way that it does NOT allow posting of any files other than h3m or h3c (and other Heroes map/campaign formats). So there's really no way to post anything with the map until the section is reprogrammed.

As for readmies with "taken from www.heroesportal.net" - these are automatically created and packed into a zip together with the map at the download time. It's kind of a piracy protection requested by Gorbik... not a good kind though, in my opinion (as a mapmaker, not as part of HP's administration). The worst part is that these ads are also added into map descriptions (sometimes erasing some of the original text in process, as the size is limited by the game). And I really hope it will be cancelled soon, especially if Ayreon adds the possibility to include other files with maps (all of the map files are left intact on the server, they are just being changed by a script at download time).

Anyway, there are usually workarounds if you can't post your extra files with the map.

E.g. when I posted my A Dragon In My Heart map, I've just made a special version which doesn't use two .pcx files in the end of the story (and v2.0 just checks their existence via 3.58f ERM: no files - no using them... it's simple). And if you want to say something to the player before he starts, it's better to make a text event on the first day (or on the loading screen in WoG's case) and tell everything there. This way you won't have to worry about something omitted when posting your map anywhere.

nevermindspy · Unread postby **nevermindspy** » 23 Mar 2007, 21:29

hey logan ..

"Perhaps you'll be surprised to find out that I work in 012 (Kavey Zahav) technical support:)"

Ummz why would i be suprised and how do you know i have a connection to 012?

Anywho yes i assume u know i'm from israel too , I don't know that many homm fanatics from israel and u certainly sound like one:P I think we can talk about some stuff how do i contact you(got msn?)? If u don't wanna post here send me to hholland@012.net.il

Neckie · Unread postby **Neckie** » 23 Mar 2007, 21:35

My maps are now correctly updated thx Logan! Thx for quick reply!

Vlaad II · Unread postby **Vlaad II** » 23 Mar 2007, 21:45

Logan Warbringer wrote: HeroesPortal always used the 1st option, but I guess I'll switch to the second and won't post such maps at all. But who will lose from such a policy? The fans...

Fans? You mean Heroes Portal, right? Fans can find those maps at other sites, WITH the appropriate "read me" files.

Logan Warbringer wrote: I receive less than a 2% of all maps with readme files and those are from Vlaad, Veldrynus, Ururam Tururam and other very well-known mapmakers who send their maps to us too. Check for their works - every map is inside their profiles.

Yeah, let's look at my profile.

Two WoG maps are unplayable without the external files - Gelu's Legacy and Clan Wars.

What...? You cannot find Gelu's Legacy? That's because it was renamed to Legacy of Gelu. Problems with apostrophes and hyperlinks? Next map: guess what was Legacy of Gelu 2 originally called?

Oh well, at least War in Middle Earth was named correctly... NOT. That's not the worst thing: there's a verrrry similar map called Fellowship of the Ring... by Unknown author (my, my, that guy is productive!). I contacted you years ago about this copycat and was the plagiarist removed...? Nah - the name of the author was changed from Borsuk to Unknown. (Yeah, yeah, it's not your fault, I got it.)

By the way, what does this mean, Logan:

Attention, there is a virtual currency @ (arroba) in use at HeroesPortal.
Exchange rate: 1 USD = 100 @
To exchange money, you may use the SMS system, Western Union, WebMoney or CONTACT.
You can also make a reverse exchange.
Exchange rate: 1000 @ = 1 USD

Cool. According to my profile, I got almost 3 bucks! But... you said there was no money involved?

Logan Warbringer wrote: 2CH administration: Some things posted here are too offensive. I really hope I will not see or read such things again.

If you continue to offend us in such an ugly way, I'll just ask Angelspit to remove your comments.

P.S. LOL, your sig sure seems ironic at the moment.

Vlaad II · Unread postby **Vlaad II** » 23 Mar 2007, 21:48

Duke Kirinyale wrote:Hi everybody from HeroesPortal

A few words about the readmies... Everything that you say here about some maps being incomplete without them is correct. BUT in our case that's not map admin's fault. As Logan already said, it's all about programming. It is simple: the map section is programmed in such a way that it does NOT allow posting of any files other than h3m or h3c (and other Heroes map/campaign formats). So there's really no way to post anything with the map until the section is reprogrammed.

As for readmies with "taken from www.heroesportal.net" - these are automatically created and packed into a zip together with the map at the download time. It's kind of a piracy protection requested by Gorbik... not a good kind though, in my opinion (as a mapmaker, not as part of HP's administration). The worst part is that these ads are also added into map descriptions (sometimes erasing some of the original text in process, as the size is limited by the game). And I really hope it will be cancelled soon, especially if Ayreon adds the possibility to include other files with maps (all of the map files are left intact on the server, they are just being changed by a script at download time).

Anyway, there are usually workarounds if you can't post your extra files with the map. E.g. when I posted my A Dragon In My Heart map, I've just made a special version which doesn't use two .pcx files in the end of the story (and v2.0 just checks their existence via 3.58f ERM: no files - no using them... it's simple). And if you want to say something to the player before he starts, it's better to make a text event on the first day (or on the loading screen in WoG's case) and tell everything there. This way you won't have to worry about something omitted when posting your map anywhere.

You must be kidding.

Duke Kirinyale · Unread postby **Duke Kirinyale** » 23 Mar 2007, 21:56

Actually, I remember that there WAS a problem with apostrophes...

And about currency exchange... Reverse exchange (1000@ = 1 USD) has been introduced not too long ago. Again, it's Gorbik's personal initiative... and if someone asks for such conversion, he pays his personal bucks. That's why there is another line just below (perhaps you've missed it?):

HeroesPortal administration can't convert more then 100,000@ per month into real.

If you think anybody of the team got any real money for his/her work, you're wrong. Instead, some of us transferred their own real bucks into @ just to help our site. But anyway, this has NOTHING to do with the maps.

Duke Kirinyale · Unread postby **Duke Kirinyale** » 23 Mar 2007, 22:00

2 Vlaad II

Did you quote my whole post just to say I'm kidding? Great. What makes you think so? Did you find any jokes there?

Vlaad II · Unread postby **Vlaad II** » 23 Mar 2007, 22:02

Duke Kirinyale wrote:But anyway, this has NOTHING to do with the maps.

Didn't I get my three bucks for submitting my maps? So, if other fans submit anyone else's maps, they get money too? Finally, they could transfer this virtual money to real money, right?

Vlaad II · Unread postby **Vlaad II** » 23 Mar 2007, 22:08

Duke Kirinyale wrote:2 Vlaad II

Did you quote my whole post just to say I'm kidding? Great. What makes you think so? Did you find any jokes there?

Yes.

It is simple: the map section is programmed in such a way that it does NOT allow posting of any files other than h3m or h3c (and other Heroes map/campaign formats).

That sounds funny.

As for readmies with "taken from www.heroesportal.net" - these are automatically created and packed into a zip together with the map at the download time. It's kind of a piracy protection

That was hilarious.

The worst part is that these ads are also added into map descriptions (sometimes erasing some of the original text in process, as the size is limited by the game).

This part made me spit my cereals onto the keyboard.

Anyway, there are usually workarounds if you can't post your extra files with the map. E.g. when I posted my A Dragon In My Heart map, I've just made a special version which doesn't use two .pcx files in the end of the story (and v2.0 just checks their existence via 3.58f ERM: no files - no using them... it's simple).

Here I was rolling on floor laughing my @55 off.

finkellll · Unread postby **finkellll** » 23 Mar 2007, 22:20

"I understand. But if you get about 40+ maps each month coming from all kind of fans? I seldom have an opportunity to visit CH and I see no more than 6-7 maps get posted in a month. And there we post much more works." 40+ maps a month??? there werent even 40 maps on the site..... and if you are even somehwat aware of the maps out there you would recognize tales of silencia, dragons cape, etc.... im not pissed that my map was stolen and put on another site with unknown author.... just the fact that it wasnt cleared with me first, and that the people in charge of that site are trying to justify themselves with "an overflow of maps" when there is only 2 xl h5 maps on the site...

The Heroes Round Table