H3: Are certain heroes too good?

[Banedon]

It's not that linear. No matter how fast you are, when there is a shroud around you, a much slower ennemy can get to you with half a move. If your base is at 48-48, and you are at 24-24 while an ennemy is at 36-36, he has a lot less terrain to run than you. Maybe a "view air" spell, cast at the beginning of each turn can help, but not much else. You are faster, yes, but only during your own turn. During his, you are immobile.

You're talking about non-linear maps like Free For All? Well, the Logistician should send scouts to map out a route, which will tell you if you're threatening him. See? If you somehow get so powerful intelligence on where your opponent is AND you can maneuveur your main army so close to your opponent, he should at least have established a big, explored area. It is not easy to jump a hero, and it is impossible if you're the slower-moving army.

Ah-HA! Doing that (pursuing the ennemy), you would fall in one of Nucleon's favorite traps; Lure and Exterminate.

You sure that never, ever did happened to you?

I chase if and only if it is safe to do so. I cannot know for sure whether I will be safe, but I will assess many factors. One is that I will not chase if the end of the week is near and you're likely to receive reinforcements. Another is whether or not I'm entering hostile terrain (like Swamp if I'm Castle). If things appear safe, you should not be able to jump me - you cannot chain your own reinforcements there in time.

That may be risky; If Nucleon's next visit is with His main army, you could lose a valuable hero if you stay up until the town is able to defend itself. You would also be gone on a spendtrifth ugrading the said town, while your own base will economically and strategically at risk. Holding on this under-developped town could well cost you.

If my scouting network is such that I cannot see your main army approaching, I deserve to lose.

If I build a castle, you cannot call my town under-developed. It becomes immune to attack (well, until you bring your main army there). I can then build dwellings with impunity.

A little more and Nucleon would have been cynical. And taking damage is a tradeoff. Nucleon would gleefully wipe off half of his main army Himself, with Armageddon, if it costs His opponent double. No guts, no glory.

Yet Nucleon implies in the above post that you would gleefully attack a castle with Castle defenses and 7 Pikemen. I would equally gleefully defend it. If you have 50 Crusaders (or 50 Dendroid Soldiers; even better in that case) I can and will defeat your army.

Assuming an open, un-guarded map, yes.

You fail to appreciate just how efficiently one can creep the map. Let me show you an example. I'm Inferno. I build the Fire Lake in Week 1; by Week 2 I recruit 6 Efreet Sultans (this is possible on Expert; I've done it before) and go. Please don't tell me that 6 Efreet Sultans is insufficient to take out most neutral guards. It is more than enough, and chances are very, very good I will not lose an Efreet Sultan before I return for reinforcements.

Okay; What will be the slowest unit in Kyrre's army? Nucleon suspect High Elves, since assaulting towns without them is much more hazardeous. That's seven. Or maybe you would opt for la creme de la creme; Silver Pegs, War U-Corns and G-Drakes; speed 9.

Pyre, OTOH, has a couple of Efreet Sultans for her courrier job, speed 13. Who's fastest?

I express complete amazement that you would actually spend Efreet Sultans, a level 6 unit, on a courrier job. But in this case, Kyree will still be faster provided she's at sufficiently high level.

Nucleon thinks Ryland has "Leadership" as his secondary skill.

Leadership does not stop you from having poorer morale. Neutral morale is definitely better to face than good morale.

Against Solmyr in the early stages of the game, yes. That does not mean Nucleon give every of His heroes a single creature stack all the time. Nucleon is no unconditional believer in a specific set of pre-established strictures.

Solmyr welcomes Nucleon to attempt this against him (as in the upcoming battle).

Wait a minute; Iron Gols and Obsidian Gargs? from where did these came from? Did a Hill Fort got involved at one point or something?

Do I need a Hill Fort? Can I not build these structures?

Remember, it's Week 1. I have 7 turns to build:

Town Hall
Upg. Workshop
Parapet
Upg. Parapet
Golem Factory
Upg. Golem Factory
Mage Guild

I know I will generally try for the Castle on week one, but since the final battle comes so early I will not spend resources on it.

Nucleon thinks that you equaled "one stack army" with "army of a lesser value". Why would Nucleon accept that?

By all means, with Expert Diplomacy, Cyra's army should be the one with the greater value. Actually, it was of a lesser cost.

Nucleon is wrong. Think it this way. It's week 4 and I'm advancing to attack you. Do you *really* think you'll somehow manage to have 50 Naga Queens? Naga Queens reproduce at 4 a week, so the maximum you can have is 16 (not counting the fact that you only get 2 when you first build the Golden Pavilion). Even if you have 100,000,000 extra gold, you can't buy any more! But Solmyr can. He will therefore have Titans, Archmagi, Master Genies etc. on the battlefield at no extra cost. To claim that you will have 50 Naga Queens is illogical, and can only be achieved via extremely lucky Diplomacy (first you have to find a stack of Nagas, then you have to get 34 of them via persuasion - not likely at all).

There is only one creature stack.

Your Nagas were split into many. If you put all your Nagas into one stack, I don't mind you having 50 Naga Queens, I destroy you.

EDIT: Unless your "single-stacked" means putting all 50 Naga Queens in one stack? OK. Solmyr accepts the battle (heck, he'd destroy 100 Naga Queens if he has to). This battle is absurdly simple, since Cyra will never get to move:

Titans move first.
Solmyr casts BLIND.
Titans attack Ballista.
Cyra's Naga Queens cannot move (so Cyra cannot cast a spell).
Solmyr's Naga Queens shamble forward.
Archmagi attack Ballista (destroying it).

Next round.

Solmyr casts MASS HASTE.
Titans move forward.
Cyra's Naga Queens cannot move (Cyra still cannot cast a spell).
Solmyr's Naga Queens shamble forward.
Archmagi move forward.

Next round.

Solmyr casts SLOW.
Titans move forward.
Cyra's Naga Queens cannot move (Cyra still cannot cast a spell).
Solmyr's Naga Queens move within attacking range but do not attack.
Archmagi move forward.

Next round.

Titans attack Naga Queens.
Solmyr's Naga Queens attack Cyra's Naga Queens.
Archmagi's move; Solmyr casts BLIND.
Cyra's Naga Queens cannot move (Cyra still cannot cast a spell).
Archmagi attack First Aid Tent.

Next round.

Titans attack Naga Queens.
Solmyr's Naga Queens attack Cyra's Naga Queens.
Cyra's Naga Queens cannot move (Cyra still cannot cast a spell).
Archmagi's move; Solmyr casts BLIND.
Archmagi defend.

Repeat until all Naga Queens are dead.

Note that in this battle I did not factor in my own Ballista, since I do not need it (once I see you have Naga Queens I unequip it). But even if I did bring it it does not matter; it just forces me to cast Blind at the start of each round instead.

[Gaidal Cain]

Note that in this battle I did not factor in my own Ballista, since I do not need it (once I see you have Naga Queens I unequip it). But even if I did bring it it does not matter; it just forces me to cast Blind at the start of each round instead.

Actually, not. This isn't H4, so the Nagas will get their turn as soon as they're unblinded, provided that every faster unit has moved before. That's why bringing a ballista without Artillery usually isn't a good idea. I also think your build order is a bit unfair- assume that you don't know until day 6 or 7 that you'll face Cyra instead.

[Nucleon]

You're talking about non-linear maps like Free For All? Well, the Logistician should send scouts to map out a route, which will tell you if you're threatening him.

The Logistic specialist is your best scout; as a general, he will out-scout his own scouts.

If my scouting network is such that I cannot see your main army approaching, I deserve to lose.

Ah? Your correspondance has led Nucleon to believe that you will defend anyway.

If I build a castle, you cannot call my town under-developed. It becomes immune to attack (well, until you bring your main army there). I can then build dwellings with impunity.

Still, it is a town with no troop reserve. Building it from scratch can only bring you a week's production over 13 days, and if that's not in the first month, that's not much.

Yet Nucleon implies in the above post that you would gleefully attack a castle with Castle defenses and 7 Pikemen. I would equally gleefully defend it. If you have 50 Crusaders (or 50 Dendroid Soldiers; even better in that case) I can and will defeat your army.

Yes, if Nucleon only brings slow footsoldiers, has no spell capacity, despicable morale and a curse of some sort facing a godlike mage who destroys my catapult.

But that's quite a few "ifs".

You fail to appreciate just how efficiently one can creep the map. Let me show you an example. I'm Inferno. I build the Fire Lake in Week 1; by Week 2 I recruit 6 Efreet Sultans (this is possible on Expert; I've done it before) and go. Please don't tell me that 6 Efreet Sultans is insufficient to take out most neutral guards. It is more than enough, and chances are very, very good I will not lose an Efreet Sultan before I return for reinforcements.

Going for such a development scheme will cost you 14500 golds, 30 ore, 15 woods and 3 mercury, 3 gems and 3 sulfurs at the end of week one, on a total budget of 16000 gold, 18 wood and ore and 4 of the other ressources, plus the ressources gained. That does not include a spell book (500), a crop of imps (500), a secondary hero for some support and additional troops (2500) and the costs of the first day of the second week, 9600 golds more , 5 ore, gems, sulfurs and crystals. for fire lake upgrade and troops

Nucleon rests His case; that should work on small, self-indulgent maps. Nucleon, a fan of the Inferno, would rather wait on week three to field such forces, giving Himself a chance in the long run.

I express complete amazement that you would actually spend Efreet Sultans, a level 6 unit, on a courrier job. But in this case, Kyree will still be faster provided she's at sufficiently high level.

Nucleon usually give one troop of the fastest unit He's got to a courrier; Ideally, that should be Dragonflies, but with Inferno it is often Cerberi, up until the situation permits otherwise. And if we figure lvls 10, Kyrre will have a logistic bonus of 45%, when compared with Pyre's 30%. 30 percent of speed 13 is 16.9, while 45% of speed 9 is 13.5. Even at lvl 20, Pyre's faster.

Leadership does not stop you from having poorer morale. Neutral morale is definitely better to face than good morale.

Yes, Leadership helps you get better morale, all the time except when you visit a depressing site, such as an empty crypt.

Do I need a Hill Fort? Can I not build these structures?
Remember, it's Week 1. I have 7 turns to build:

Town Hall
Upg. Workshop
Parapet
Upg. Parapet
Golem Factory
Upg. Golem Factory
Mage Guild

I know I will generally try for the Castle on week one, but since the final battle comes so early I will not spend resources on it.

You just changed Nucleon's rules!

Nucleon is wrong. Think it this way. It's week 4 and I'm advancing to attack you. Do you *really* think you'll somehow manage to have 50 Naga Queens? Naga Queens reproduce at 4 a week, so the maximum you can have is 16 (not counting the fact that you only get 2 when you first build the Golden Pavilion). Even if you have 100,000,000 extra gold, you can't buy any more! But Solmyr can. He will therefore have Titans, Archmagi, Master Genies etc. on the battlefield at no extra cost. To claim that you will have 50 Naga Queens is illogical, and can only be achieved via extremely lucky Diplomacy (first you have to find a stack of Nagas, then you have to get 34 of them via persuasion - not likely at all).

It is funny that Diplomacy seems such a stretch to you, while you believe that Logistic can make your army an uber one. Nucleon thinks that Diplomacy is much more broken than Logistics, because it does bring you, during all the game, free troops. That's what it does.

Anyway, our respective heroes can also be hired in the sixth month of a game, at a stage where Nucleon has three Tower towns while you have just one, say.

EDIT: Unless your "single-stacked" means putting all 50 Naga Queens in one stack? OK. Solmyr accepts the battle (heck, he'd destroy 100 Naga Queens if he has to). This battle is absurdly simple, since Cyra will never get to move:

Titans move first.
Solmyr casts BLIND.
Titans attack Ballista.
Cyra's Naga Queens cannot move (so Cyra cannot cast a spell).
Solmyr's Naga Queens shamble forward.
Archmagi attack Ballista (destroying it).

Stop it right here. From there, your ballista (you can't turn it off or unpack it, unless you meet with another of your heroes that does not pack one) can now auto-target my blinded stack; sometimes it hits Cyra's Ammo cart, other times her main stack; Once it happens, she casts "Anti-magic", then "Curse" and then, with Solmyr thus castrated, she wins the battle without giving herself too much trouble.

Note that this is a rather extreme exemple; When Nucleon says "a single creature stack", He means a concentration of forces to defeat Solmyr at the early stages of the game. The bout we imagined does not even respect that, because of the war machines; Solmyr could have used his "Chain Lightning" whitout hurting his own troops after all, negating the very point of testing Solmyr, replacing it with testing "a Tower mage".

After that, it doesn't really matter since "Chain Lightning" becomes available. Most of the time this strategy will be used by neutral forces. A human player will most likely have more than one type of troop in his army, and/or war machines (unless he's packing a really fast troop, such as a scout with Silver Pegasis or Dragonflies).

[wimfrits]

Stop it right here. From there, your ballista (you can't turn it off or unpack it, unless you meet with another of your heroes that does not pack one) can now auto-target my blinded stack

Errrrr... I thought Lord Banedon didn't bring His ballista?

Personally, I never ever use a ballistae anymore if I can't control it.
Learned that after countless times of cursing when that low-damage thing completely killed my blinding tactics.

[csarmi]

Banedon's army wins easily (i would split the archmagi for best results). And yes, Nucleon's army shall NEVER get to move. After the Naga Queens' attack it's the Archmagi's turn and then blind is recast.

I would cast some more spells just in case btw. And make sure I can cast enough blinds. And of course bring additional stacks. But even this one should be enough.

[Nucleon]

Errrrr... I thought Lord Banedon didn't bring His ballista?

No. It is in his army's description. He merely "un-equipps" it, what you normaly can't do in HOMM3.

If it wasn't about this very mistake, Nucleon would have substitued Cyra for Korbac, with Expert Resistance and... 333 Dragonflies in a single stack. But that would have been quite a customized response to what he proposed Nucleon, and thus, a bit unfair.

[csarmi]

You are still very likely to lose with those dragonflies. Single stack is a suicide, that's all.

[Nucleon]

You are still very likely to lose with those dragonflies. Single stack is a suicide, that's all.

It is a strategy, nothing less, nothing more. Works against some things, does not work with others.

[Banedon]

The Logistic specialist is your best scout; as a general, he will out-scout his own scouts.

Of course! The main army explores AND scouts, but since it can only explore in one direction, I will send scouts in other directions. He will out-scout everyone else of course, but that's a good thing.

Ah? Your correspondance has led Nucleon to believe that you will defend anyway.

Of course I will defend it. Two things may happen:

1. I see your main army approaching it. I move my main army to defend it. If you attack (which you definitely should not), my castle defenses will wipe you out.

2. I see your main army approaching it. I recruit 7 Pikemen (and, if I have the Gold, a hero). You therefore do not make me lose a valuable hero, since I won't bother buying a hero if I have no money for it.

Still, it is a town with no troop reserve. Building it from scratch can only bring you a week's production over 13 days, and if that's not in the first month, that's not much.

You realize 7 Pikemen is enough to defend a castle from almost all scout heroes? I can get those same Pikemen by buying a hero too (who will run if he cannot live).

The point is, I will only go for the dwellings if I can hold the castle. No point building a Portal of Glory only for my opponent to show up and seize it.

Yes, if Nucleon only brings slow footsoldiers, has no spell capacity, despicable morale and a curse of some sort facing a godlike mage who destroys my catapult.

But that's quite a few "ifs".

Nucleon brings Ranged units. I shoot them down (towers helping). Nucleon brings Flying units. I destory them with my own walkers (again, towers helping). Nucleon has spells - this will hurt, but at the very least I will make you pay a heavy price. I do not have a godlike mage. I attack the Catapult physically if I can hope to destroy it; otherwise my creatures go for your walkers instead.

Going for such a development scheme will cost you 14500 golds, 30 ore, 15 woods and 3 mercury, 3 gems and 3 sulfurs at the end of week one, on a total budget of 16000 gold, 18 wood and ore and 4 of the other ressources, plus the ressources gained. That does not include a spell book (500), a crop of imps (500), a secondary hero for some support and additional troops (2500) and the costs of the first day of the second week, 9600 golds more , 5 ore, gems, sulfurs and crystals. for fire lake upgrade and troops

Note that:

On Expert difficulty you start with 10,000 Gold.
Each turn, after you build the Town Hall, you gain 1000 Gold - 7 x 1000 = 7000.
If I start with Octavia (which is quite possible; Inferno doesn't have too good heroes), I get 350 x 7 = 2250 Gold.
There will almost always be loose resources to pick up. Conservatively, I can hope to get around 5000 Gold (more if another castle is present).

The sum of this is well over 20,000 Gold. Tell me it isn't possible. My 6 Efreet Sultans in the second week give me tremendous possibilities; by waiting for the third week you give me 7 extra days to roam the map. The consequences to this will almost certainly be dramatic, I assure you.

If you still refuse to believe it is possible, I too rest my case.

Nucleon usually give one troop of the fastest unit He's got to a courrier; Ideally, that should be Dragonflies, but with Inferno it is often Cerberi, up until the situation permits otherwise. And if we figure lvls 10, Kyrre will have a logistic bonus of 45%, when compared with Pyre's 30%. 30 percent of speed 13 is 16.9, while 45% of speed 9 is 13.5. Even at lvl 20, Pyre's faster.

You factor wrongly. Cerberi do not move at speed 13. Don't count on having Efreet Sultans too to transport - they're far too valuable to spend on courrier duty.

It is funny that Diplomacy seems such a stretch to you, while you believe that Logistic can make your army an uber one. Nucleon thinks that Diplomacy is much more broken than Logistics, because it does bring you, during all the game, free troops. That's what it does.

Diplomacy requires you to meet neutral Nagas. Does that happen every game? Logistics works no matter the situation. If you don't meet neutral Nagas Diplomacy does not help.

I do not deny that Diplomacy is a powerful skill, but I do not think Diplomacy can get you 50 Naga Queens by week 4.

Anyway, our respective heroes can also be hired in the sixth month of a game, at a stage where Nucleon has three Tower towns while you have just one, say.

If you have three Tower towns, I have three of my own. That is only fair - so against your 50 Naga Queens I will have 24 Titans.

You just changed Nucleon's rules!

Reiterate your rules then. I'm baffled what they are.

Stop it right here. From there, your ballista (you can't turn it off or unpack it, unless you meet with another of your heroes that does not pack one) can now auto-target my blinded stack; sometimes it hits Cyra's Ammo cart, other times her main stack; Once it happens, she casts "Anti-magic", then "Curse" and then, with Solmyr thus castrated, she wins the battle without giving herself too much trouble.

You have a powerful scouting network, right? I have one too. I see you bringing Naga Queens, I take out my Ballista. Is that wrong?

I originally brought the Ballista because I figured you, to even stand a chance, will bring Black Dragons or something. Then the Ballista will help. Against Naga Queens, I have no reason to bring it, and I will ditch it as soon as possible.

Well anyway let's even things out this way:

Cyra learns Expert Diplomacy, Basic Wisdom, Advanced Air Magic, Advanced Earth Magic, Expert Fire Magic and Basic Artillery. Performing a few calculations here and there, Solmyr reasons that Cyra has learned 12 levels of secondary skills, so he himself knows the same amount.

They are:

Expert Wisdom
Expert Air Magic
Expert Fire Magic
Expert Intelligence

The Ballista does not ruin anything, since under Expert Fire Magic the Nagas STILL don't get to move, and so Cyra loses horribly, without even dealing one point of damage to Solmyr's army.

If it wasn't about this very mistake, Nucleon would have substitued Cyra for Korbac, with Expert Resistance and... 333 Dragonflies in a single stack. But that would have been quite a customized response to what he proposed Nucleon, and thus, a bit unfair.

Banedon looks at Nucleon and smiles an indulgent smile, pointing out simply that it will take MONTHS to recruit 333 Dragonflies, so he himself has 50 Titans on the battlefield...

[Nucleon]

Of course! The main army explores AND scouts, but since it can only explore in one direction, I will send scouts in other directions. He will out-scout everyone else of course, but that's a good thing.

Well, call Him funny, but Nucleon prefer to have the Logistician effortlessly refresh the outposts rather than stretching the supply train in the Logistician's direction and ignoring the others. Different folk, different strokes.

1. I see your main army approaching it. I move my main army to defend it. If you attack (which you definitely should not), my castle defenses will wipe you out.

Sure. But if it is a different type of town then you cannot bring its troops into your main army's ranks, they are effectively war prize. Still, this strategy is closer to what Nucleon would do

2. I see your main army approaching it. I recruit 7 Pikemen (and, if I have the Gold, a hero). You therefore do not make me lose a valuable hero, since I won't bother buying a hero if I have no money for it.

All of what you will spend in the deseperate defense of a town is only expenses for you and experience points for the ennemy. If odds are not looking good, Nucleon prefers buying the reserves, bail out and let the ennemy walk into said empty town. Nucleon will get it back later, when it will be upgraded with the ennemy's funds.

You realize 7 Pikemen is enough to defend a castle from almost all scout heroes? I can get those same Pikemen by buying a hero too (who will run if he cannot live).

Well, not if my scout is equipped with Efreet Sultans.

On Expert difficulty you start with 10,000 Gold.
Each turn, after you build the Town Hall, you gain 1000 Gold - 7 x 1000 = 7000.

Tssk tssk. It is 10k golds plus 6000 if a village hall is built on the first day; You don't get the Hall's value on day one. Maybe you're including the first day of the second week, thought.

If I start with Octavia (which is quite possible; Inferno doesn't have too good heroes), I get 350 x 7 = 2250 Gold.
There will almost always be loose resources to pick up. Conservatively, I can hope to get around 5000 Gold (more if another castle is present).

Octavia should help (she is also one of Nucleon's Infernal favorites, along with Zydar), but to expect 5000 gold in lose ressources is quite an expectation; Sure, with treasure chests you could... but many people will chose experience at the start of a game... Yes, you definitively could, depending on the map, Nucleon guesses. It is a trade-off, like many other strategies.

You factor wrongly. Cerberi do not move at speed 13. Don't count on having Efreet Sultans too to transport - they're far too valuable to spend on courrier duty.

Efreet Sultans, that you can have in one week, have a speed of 13. Nucleon expect to have a couple around as Pyre reach lvl 10.

Nucleon is baffled; On one hand, you sing the praises of Logistic specialist, saying how much they bring to the war, and on the other hand you are ready to leave them with either the main army or crappy troops, interfering with their mobility. Nucleon likes to let His hero's speciality shine. 30 Efreet Sultans on the main army instead of 32 is no shame, but it makes a lot of difference in your army's logistics.

And beside, Pyre with her two Efreet Sultans -and ballista- just took down your 7 Pikemen-defended castle.

Diplomacy requires you to meet neutral Nagas. Does that happen every game? Logistics works no matter the situation. If you don't meet neutral Nagas Diplomacy does not help.

I do not deny that Diplomacy is a powerful skill, but I do not think Diplomacy can get you 50 Naga Queens by week 4.

Diplomacy (whose subject Nucleon separates from the circular Naga Queen argument here) brings you troops anytime, every game (unless the map maker modified all his creatures as "savage"), often at no costs. It is especially good for a general in campaign, since he's got the muscle to confront dangerous-looking stacks. Diplomacy can even cut the needs for a steady supply train. If there is one thing Nucleon is very wary of, it's Diplomacy.

I originally brought the Ballista because I figured you, to even stand a chance, will bring Black Dragons or something. Then the Ballista will help. Against Naga Queens, I have no reason to bring it, and I will ditch it as soon as possible.

Well anyway let's even things out this way:

Cyra learns Expert Diplomacy, Basic Wisdom, Advanced Air Magic, Advanced Earth Magic, Expert Fire Magic and Basic Artillery. Performing a few calculations here and there, Solmyr reasons that Cyra has learned 12 levels of secondary skills, so he himself knows the same amount.

They are:

Expert Wisdom
Expert Air Magic
Expert Fire Magic
Expert Intelligence

The Ballista does not ruin anything, since under Expert Fire Magic the Nagas STILL don't get to move, and so Cyra loses horribly, without even dealing one point of damage to Solmyr's army.

Nucleon thought we should stand by our choices. He has been as fair as possible; He could have brought a single stack of 16 Titans instead, or undeads, or elementals, or anything that is immune to "Blind". Be fair too; You had the ballista in your list, and it's not that easy getting rid of it in HOMM3.

Another point is, you won't fool Nucleon to accept an army that is inferior to yours for comparison's sake. This "contest", originally proposed to test the functionality of one-stacked techniques to counter "Chain Lightning" has sufficiently gone off-course as it is, become a trial for about anything concerning Solmyr, "Blind" and Naga Queens.

[csarmi]

Not that easy getting rid of a ballista?!???????

[Nucleon]

Not that easy getting rid of a ballista?!???????

In non-WOG HOMM3, yes, it is not.

[Banedon]

Well, call Him funny, but Nucleon prefer to have the Logistician effortlessly refresh the outposts rather than stretching the supply train in the Logistician's direction and ignoring the others. Different folk, different strokes.

I prefer to have the Logistician effortlessly conquering new territories. Stretching the supply train his way may not be a good idea - he can return when threatened; with his superior movement, he will outrun all foes.

Sure. But if it is a different type of town then you cannot bring its troops into your main army's ranks, they are effectively war prize. Still, this strategy is closer to what Nucleon would do

Who cares if it's a different town type? My main army + castle defenses will defeat your main army with one extra week's population.

All of what you will spend in the deseperate defense of a town is only expenses for you and experience points for the ennemy. If odds are not looking good, Nucleon prefers buying the reserves, bail out and let the ennemy walk into said empty town. Nucleon will get it back later, when it will be upgraded with the ennemy's funds.

I will happily sacrifice the money and experience points if I kill a significant portion of your army. Example: You go into battle with 50 Grand Elves. Now 50 Grand Elves is not an inconsiderable amount and they will doubtless be a strong factor in any future conflict. If, by attacking my castle, I slay them all, I will consider it a victory.

I will also note that if I cannot hold the town, I will not upgrade it (and not build the Castle - I build it only if I can inflict serious casualties on you).

Tssk tssk. It is 10k golds plus 6000 if a village hall is built on the first day; You don't get the Hall's value on day one. Maybe you're including the first day of the second week, thought.

We should count the first day of the second week - that's the day I recruit all my units.

Octavia should help (she is also one of Nucleon's Infernal favorites, along with Zydar), but to expect 5000 gold in lose ressources is quite an expectation; Sure, with treasure chests you could... but many people will chose experience at the start of a game... Yes, you definitively could, depending on the map, Nucleon guesses. It is a trade-off, like many other strategies.

Choose experience? Well, you can do it. I pick Gold - especially since on Expert, resources are scarce. You take your Experience and I take my Gold; on the second week I will field my 6 Efreet Sultans and earn it all back - with interest! - while you wait for a third week.

Nucleon is baffled; On one hand, you sing the praises of Logistic specialist, saying how much they bring to the war, and on the other hand you are ready to leave them with either the main army or crappy troops, interfering with their mobility. Nucleon likes to let His hero's speciality shine. 30 Efreet Sultans on the main army instead of 32 is no shame, but it makes a lot of difference in your army's logistics.

I am equally baffled. 30 Efreet Sultans come after MONTHS of play - by which time courrier armies diminish in importance. 30 Efreet Sultans compared to 32 is no shame, but that means that if you encounter your opponent who's short on one week's reinforcements, he can still win.

If I do get a Logisitics specialist (not start with it), I will hand him / her the fastest moving troops I can reasonably afford. Efreet Sultans are out of this category, or else I will say you have your Efreet Sultans while I have Phoenixes doing the courrier duty.

And beside, Pyre with her two Efreet Sultans -and ballista- just took down your 7 Pikemen-defended castle. wink

Pyre loses this battle comprehensively, and I am impressed that you even hope to win. Consider:

Start of battle. Towers shoot. One Efreet Sultan dies.
Pyre casts CHAIN LIGHTNING (so improbable it is absurd, but who cares?). Four Pikemen stacks die.
Efreet Sultan attacks and destroy another stack.
Ballista attacks and destory another stack.
Remaining Pikeman stack defends.

Next round.
Towers shoot. Last Efreet Sultan stack dies.
...
Pyre has just been defeated by a castle, thanks to gross underestimation of castle defenses. I think it's quite possible too that BOTH Efreet Sultans die to the first volley.

Diplomacy (whose subject Nucleon separates from the circular Naga Queen argument here) brings you troops anytime, every game (unless the map maker modified all his creatures as "savage"), often at no costs. It is especially good for a general in campaign, since he's got the muscle to confront dangerous-looking stacks. Diplomacy can even cut the needs for a steady supply train. If there is one thing Nucleon is very wary of, it's Diplomacy.

Which I do not deny. But this fact lends no weight to your argument that it is reasonable to have 50 Naga Queens by the end of Month 1.

Nucleon thought we should stand by our choices. He has been as fair as possible; He could have brought a single stack of 16 Titans instead, or undeads, or elementals, or anything that is immune to "Blind". Be fair too; You had the ballista in your list, and it's not that easy getting rid of it in HOMM3.

Banedon notes that he DID NOT specify what his secondary skils were, and if he does have Expert Blind he will still win even if he did equip a Ballista. Banedon also notes that Nuecleon will not have 16 Titans (or he would have them too), and that if whatever stack Nucleon did use were immune to Blind, he will still win - provided, of course, that Nucleon is reasonable and does not claim that 333 Dragon Flies is possible against 8 Titans.

Another point is, you won't fool Nucleon to accept an army that is inferior to yours for comparison's sake. This "contest", originally proposed to test the functionality of one-stacked techniques to counter "Chain Lightning" has sufficiently gone off-course as it is, become a trial for about anything concerning Solmyr, "Blind" and Naga Queens.

I am not trying to fool Nucleon. I'm simply showing you just how impractical it is for you to field 333 Dragon Flies against 8 Titans - even the best Diplomats cannot help you with that! You must realize that in any normal game, if you try to bring only one stack into battle, you MUST accept this limitation. And, 8 Titans plus 32 Archmage should be much more than enough, even at half range, to demolish your Ballista. Ballistae, after all, have a mere 250 HP.

I also point out that even if you DID have 50 Naga Queens, you would have lost a terrible loss against me, if I did not bring my Ballista or if I had Expert Fire Magic. I have just countered your extra 2 months worth of Naga Queens with 2500 Gold in the ballista.

[csarmi]

LOL

Look, you seem to wanna get attention or I dunno what with your rediculuos statements (sometimes whole posts), I won't give you that.

But there are thousands of ways to get rid of a ballista.

Oh, and diplomacy is normally banned for obvious reasons.

FYI, most of games are over in the first month.

[Banedon]

FYI, most of games are over in the first month.

That depends crucially, I think, on what map you're playing. I would be surprised if you finished a map like Free For All in one month.

[Nucleon]

Look, you seem to wanna get attention or I dunno what with your rediculuos statements (sometimes whole posts), I won't give you that.

Well, you just did. Once more.

But there are thousands of ways to get rid of a ballista.

Okay, just explain a few hundreds of them.

Oh, and diplomacy is normally banned for obvious reasons.

Not that obvious, if He read this thread.

FYI, most of games are over in the first month.

Nucleon would like to know the small, easy map you're playing all the time.

[Nucleon]

Who cares if it's a different town type? My main army + castle defenses will defeat your main army with one extra week's population.

In the early stages? Maybe, maybe not.

I will happily sacrifice the money and experience points if I kill a significant portion of your army. Example: You go into battle with 50 Grand Elves. Now 50 Grand Elves is not an inconsiderable amount and they will doubtless be a strong factor in any future conflict. If, by attacking my castle, I slay them all, I will consider it a victory.

Once again, that's simplistc. If you pretend to slay 50 elves, you've got a more than respectable force, maybe more needed than these Elves you just slew.

Choose experience? Well, you can do it. I pick Gold - especially since on Expert, resources are scarce. You take your Experience and I take my Gold; on the second week I will field my 6 Efreet Sultans and earn it all back - with interest! - while you wait for a third week.

You say ressources are scarce yet in your exemple you do not hesistate to postpone the building of your Capital to favor Efreet Sultan production. Nucleon thinks that an advanced skill and an extra point of attribute on your main hero can help a lot in the early stages. As a rule of thumb, if said chest contains 500 xp, Nucleon takes the cash, and if its 1500 xp, He take the experience. The rest depends.

I am equally baffled. 30 Efreet Sultans come after MONTHS of play - by which time courrier armies diminish in importance. 30 Efreet Sultans compared to 32 is no shame, but that means that if you encounter your opponent who's short on one week's reinforcements, he can still win.

Nucleon doubts that.

Pyre loses this battle comprehensively, and I am impressed that you even hope to win. Consider:

Start of battle. Towers shoot. One Efreet Sultan dies.
Pyre casts CHAIN LIGHTNING (so improbable it is absurd, but who cares?). Four Pikemen stacks die.
Efreet Sultan attacks and destroy another stack.
Ballista attacks and destory another stack.
Remaining Pikeman stack defends.

Next round.
Towers shoot. Last Efreet Sultan stack dies.
...
Pyre has just been defeated by a castle, thanks to gross underestimation of castle defenses. I think it's quite possible too that BOTH Efreet Sultans die to the first volley.

Maybe. Once again, it depends. Pyre may also cast a nasty like "Resurrection", or "Earthquake". Arrow towers do between 22-33 damage (with attack 10), doubled for the main one, so Nucleon highly doubt that you can take 2 Efreets with the first volley, even if maximum damage is attained.

Nucleon will however concede that it will not be an easy task. Only a skilled, lvl 10+ hero could do that if he is equipped. Here.

Which I do not deny. But this fact lends no weight to your argument that it is reasonable to have 50 Naga Queens by the end of Month 1.

(...)

(...)

Banedon, that horse is dead. Stop beating on the poor thing. If it bugs you that much, well, suppose Solmyr just produced instead 1 Titan, 2 Naga Queens and 4 Archmages, while Cyra has 6 Naga Queens.

Nucleon won't come back to this exemple (where your composition change all the time), for lack of relevance from the start anyway.

[csarmi]

- Not equipping it at first place. (useless like that anyways)
- Destroying it with spells in combat. (damage spells, berserk and a few more)
- Making neutrals kill it.
- Give it to another hero.
- Get artillery skill.

You want more?

As for map time, it does not depend much on map size; unless the mapmaker used some pretty harsh coding (or made the map way too linear), it will usually be over in 3-5 weeks (maybe even faster). Add 1 week if players choose champion difficulty (the highest one i mean, not sure of its name) - which only fools play btw because then it all comes down to pure luck (unless he map is very well cnstructed(.

[Nucleon]

- Not equipping it at first place. (useless like that anyways)

Irrelevant in the case that interest us.

- Destroying it with spells in combat. (damage spells, berserk and a few more)

That's pretty stupid.

- Making neutrals kill it.

That's pretty stupid.

- Give it to another hero.

The only way to get rid of it without killing half your army.

- Get artillery skill.

Irrelevant in the case that interest us.

You want more?

Yes, please provide 95 more.

As for map time, it does not depend much on map size; unless the mapmaker used some pretty harsh coding (or made the map way too linear), it will usually be over in 3-5 weeks (maybe even faster). Add 1 week if players choose champion difficulty (the highest one i mean, not sure of its name) - which only fools play btw because then it all comes down to pure luck (unless he map is very well cnstructed(.

Codswallop.

Often, 1 month is not enough to explore half of the map, much less conquering it. You got some of these maps you do in less than a month? E-mail them to Nucleon at MVictorPjinsiste@yahoo,ca.

[csarmi]

LOL

just to get my post count up

but you don't expect me to reply to this post, do you?
you are either serious (that would imply your hopeless) or playing fun on us (that would mean no good in replying)