Holy crap-You MUST see this! (academy strat)

[86wyp]

This is a test made recently by 尤拉 on our forum, Banedon tell me to post it here. The original link is:
http://gamebbs.enet.com.cn/thread-2909536-1-1.html

The purpose of this test is to show that academy is powerful even at late game with miniartis and at least two schools of magics. Actually this battle came from a real game between six players on Rise to Power, version 2.0, heroic level. The game was played only for fun so all players chose rarely used heroes.

However, in the second month, Academy won the battle vs Haven with almost no losses which shocked all the players. Then the test began: the players other than haven and academy helped haven to let it train as many army as possible, and the academy player waited for the haven player to get the army and levels and artifacts for the hero.

The result was: academy won. This test didn't convinced me that academy is better than haven. But it told us how to develop a powerful academy in late game.

The screenshots:

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655014133

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655014865

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655016098

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655026568

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655027518

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655027608

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655028940

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655029007

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655029994

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655030118

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655049431

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655049531

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655051079

http://photo.163.com/photos/wyp68916891 ... 2655051183

(尤拉 also said that in the battle he made big a mistake to let the rakshasa raja get too close to the marksmen and lost almost all the stack after one shot.)

[Jagiello]

Yea nice work i always knew ACADEMY cannot be weak ! but i think Heaven player shuld have nore champions then Academy rakasha's and inquisitors on the battle should be splited thats how i see it.And atack with def Rutger could heve more depends from artifacts ofkoz wiz get lucky and found good one,so wiz was have not so less...and Rut have a lot know and spell less.

[Banedon]

Rutger deserved it. He left himself more or less completely defenseless against Academy's magical weapons. What happened was quite astonishing, but if you think about it Haven's counters to Academy were already mentioned:

攻击(末日惩罚),士气(服务于末日惩罚),幸运(15%抗魔大法,也冀望于那偶尔的幸运攻击),防御(20%抗魔保护,20%抗远程),光明(偏箭,加速,魔免)

Translated as Attack (?? I don't know what the translation is, literally translated as 'doomsday punishment'), Leadership (I think; could mean morale; supports 'doomsday punishment'), Luck (15% magic resistance), Defense (20% magic resistance, 20% resistance to Ranged) and Light Magic (Deflect Missiles, Haste, Magical Immunity).

Though I can't understand the first two, the remaining three I totally agree with, and I've been thinking over the same lines the past few days. A well-built Knight ought to defeat Academy late-game in spite of Academy's magics.

[Elvin]

Banedon could you do me a favour? My connection has been very bad today so could you tell me what happened in short? What skills were used,time of attack,spells and army strength.
The links just don't load the page!

Edit:
Yay, my system is fine once more!

[86wyp]

攻击（末日惩罚）＝retribution，the best ability for haven under attack skill. Actually I think rutger learned the right skills for him: attack+leadership，defense，light magic and logistics. He didn't have protection but that's ok coz academy didn't have destructive magics either. Logistics is not as useful as luck in the final battle that's true, but it can give the hero more exp, more money and more artis which make it worth its weight in luck or any other skill. The academy hero still got more levels and artis just because academy's fast, and I am sure rutger would be stuck by hordes of high level monsters in a heroic level game even he's able to run faster. Dougal is certainly a better hero. The only problem I see here is that rutger forgot to learn expert trainer and the following ability retribution which make me think that the haven player was not that skilled.

[okrane]

I so regret the fact that the devs did not find a way to make replays of heroes games.. at least replays of battles....

[Elvin]

Actually I think rutger learned the right skills for him: attack+leadership，defense，light magic and logistics. He didn't have protection but that's ok coz academy didn't have destructive magics either. Logistics is not as useful as luck in the final battle that's true, but it can give the hero more exp, more money and more artis which make it worth its weight in luck or any other skill. The academy hero still got more levels and artis just because academy's fast, and I am sure rutger would be stuck by hordes of high level monsters in a heroic level game even he's able to run faster. Dougal is certainly a better hero. The only problem I see here is that rutger forgot to learn expert trainer and the following ability retribution which make me think that the haven player was not that skilled.

Right skills? Sure.
Leadership without divine guidance or aura of swiftness.
No evasion from defence-against academy if nothing else
Familiar ground from logistics and yet he fought in a swamp
And as you said no retribution??
I am not a haven player but heck, even I can see some things here.

Academy hero got more lvls due to enlightenment.

At any rate if you add all primary stats Narxes was near the knight considering att/def and way beyond in magic stats.Add all these up and you can tell Narxes had an artifacts advantage.He even had ring of speed, what are we talking about??

[86wyp]

That's right, I can only say the haven player sucks

[Alamar]

Anyone that has questions on the strategy should just play a few hotseat games to see if it works for them or it's something they'd like to try.

To me the new strategy doesn't seem to help much more than traditional play on heroic difficulty. The randomness of guardians, randomness of spells, randomness of heroes, etc. has such a large impact that it's not easy to tell [really] how effective the strategy is compared to the more conventional strategy.

------------------------------------- To avoid the double post ------------

I suspect that the strong Academy player was able to hit the Dragon Utopia one or two times on that map along with clearing out one or two other things that were critical.

[Elvin]

First of all in heroic you go all gold-not xp which makes things a lot different. Also the resources make it difficult for high mage guild lvls early enough AND library which requires mages(I think). However academy with this strategy can creep successfully and tackle almost everything, even druid elders with little losses.
Haven't actually tried it on heroic but I can tell that it's pretty satisfying on hard and there isn't as much randomness as one would think. The probability of getting only 500 xp in chests AND getting the worst combination of spells borders on nonexistent-thought it is possible once in a while.

[86wyp]

Actually I believe MMR shines on heroic when one cannot build almost nothing before beating strong monsters(except haven), and beat them continually(maybe three stacks in a day). Not only more resources and levels, also some good artifacts can make the army or hero MUCH stronger. The fact is, if you don't get them early enough, your opponents will. A ring of speed often means 40% initiative bonus, not 20% because it must be in one's hand, either you or your opponent.
Another main idea is: two schools of magics are almost always better than one school of magic. For example, arcane shield itself may be not a good lvl5 spell, but arcane shield+resurrection+deflect missile+endurance can make an unkillable army. Considering the fact that most factions(like haven, sylvan, inferno, fortress and sometimes necropolis) are not supposed to let their heroes learn sorcery, academy heroes can often cast spells faster(mass spells are not affected, but many important spells like magical immunity, teleportation, resurrection and frenzy are not mass spells). And through learning magic skills and abilities like suppress light, seal of darkness, sap magic and banish, academy heroes are very good at restrain opponents' magics. How many times can a haven hero cast mass cleansing when it costs 40 mana per time?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

First of all in heroic you go all gold-not xp which makes things a lot different. Also the resources make it difficult for high mage guild lvls early enough AND library which requires mages(I think). However academy with this strategy can creep successfully and tackle almost everything, even druid elders with little losses.
Haven't actually tried it on heroic but I can tell that it's pretty satisfying on hard and there isn't as much randomness as one would think. The probability of getting only 500 xp in chests AND getting the worst combination of spells borders on nonexistent-thought it is possible once in a while.

You need to take experience from most of the chests to make the strategy work even on heroic because you must rapidly gain levels.

The strategy needs a map that is fairly resource rich. Additionally it is difficult to use the strategy unless you have another nearby place besides your town to restore your mana. Mana reduction/restoration abilities are useful as is the heroe who regains mana in combat.

You will not be building artifacts or will maybe build one for your titans. The wizards' artificer racial specilaty remains mostly realistically unobtainable in a fast paced game.

Wizards need a good early spell selection because their early creatures are weak but sometimes your spell selection just plain sucks. Building the library can help a bit but see the paragraph below. .

Yes you must build the resource expensive mage's guild before building the library. You will have a tough time building and utilizing the artifact merchant to purchase artifacts unless there are tons of gold available.

After having used this strategy on a number of heroic games on different maps my viewpoint on the strategy is that it can work but there are a lot of hit variables that can sink your ship. Other factons are quite caple of consistantly mounting a rush that is at least as formidble as the academy's hit and miss rush.

The academy still needs to be strengthened.

GOW

[Elvin]

I know. I was referring to this:

To me the new strategy doesn't seem to help much more than traditional play on heroic difficulty.

[Caradoc]

This thread seems a good enough place to ask about Wizard skills. I find myself trying to develop my Wizards like I would Warlocks, since I have played a lot of Dungeon and not so much Academy. But I'm not having good results.

First off, is Leadership ever worth taking? Apart from Diplomacy, I don't see any useful skills.

Logistics is always good and with Teleport Assault as the reward, I'd think it's essential.

Attack poses a dilemma -- do I take Tactics to get my Genies and Rakis across the battlefield, or do I push thru to Cold Steel?

I would think Destructive Magic is the way to go since it works well with MotW, but what about a second school? Or Sorcery for all those 3rd level spells.

Is there any reason to go for Defense, Enlightenment, or War Machines?

Finally, what about Heroes? I've been using Jhada (sp?) for her initiative, and Havez to steal his gear. The others look pretty good too, except for that blue guy.

So what do you think?

[Elvin]

My thoughts:

Academy depends mostly on magic so two magic schools will pay off.
Wizards aren't much in the spellpower department so they should at least cast faster. Thus sorcery is a must if you go the magic route. It also unlocks arcane training and counterspel.

Might skills I find of less important that magic with the exception of luck->resourcefulness and defence->vitality->power of endurance.
Luck can be substituted with luck arties and defence is too rare to concider usually. Tactics can be substituted by speed arties. Warmachines mostly for creeping but nothing I can't live without.

Logistics as well. If you get teleport assault you are in for a nice treat but since it requires 6 lvls to get it messes with your skills. If you get it early and take it you'd best take only one school or go might. I avoid it cause I can achieve better results via the magic route.

Enlightenment I take at later lvls(about 16+) for the stat bonuses which help the creation of mini-arties. Early on I want to get my desired skills.

Just in case, no I don't get arties for all creatures-just for my key units and rarely more than two on a creature. But it's enough for you to do your job. Only rakshasas and titans truly require luck arties for instance. And speed usually goes to the rakshasas.

For spell schools there are many choices. But I always take summoning up to wall of fog for enemy shooters.
Light is very good for resurrection and a couple mass buffs and greatly aids academy. Low spellpower needs.
Dark is even more useful but will you find the right spells?
Destructive is better for rushes. And when you get artifact merchants early(by skipping some creatures). The damage with your spellpower alone is not good if you plan on taking it. Good against warlocks for sap magic, buffs damage +10% with fiery wrath or you can use a mastery most notably ice which responds better to your low power than lightning and freezes. Freeze + motw means 2 stacks frozen per turn.

Motw works best with destructive and summoning. Motw + phantom forces/wasp swarm/arcane armour are your friend!

Heroes I like mostly Jhora, Havez(a bit less), Razzak(too bad he has no gremlins) and Galib(great special but can't get motw in lvl 1 and has no starting destructive spell).

A typical wizard of mine would be:
Summoning
Light/dark/destructive
Luck
Enlightenment

I wonder what others use.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

A typical wizard for me would be:

Artificer of course
summoning
sorcery
dark and/or destructive
enlightenment

I try to put off developing artificer as long as possible but unfortunately sometimes you are forced into early development of it, which gives you no benefit at all for a long time and can greatly hamper a rush attempt. I grab MOTW as soon as it shows up and develop sorcery while developing summoning. The faster casting can really help out early.

A great early spell is fire trap since you can target it to a certain area. You can even move part of that area off the screen and also no traps will appear under your creatures. With the early development of sorcery you can have a nice mine field before walkers can reach your lines.

After Summoning and Sorcery are pretty much developed I pick up dark and/or destructive and pick up enlightenment.

While light can be good for a wizard it is not that great early on. Neither gargoyles nor golems can be resurrected and if you are trying to rush you need are concentrating on what helps NOW.

I build the library as early as possible but sometimes it takes a while since it requires the mage tower which can be a problem to build while you are building your mage guild up.

Early master gremlins and steel golems will help you capture your mines. Agains large walkers like unicorns put all your MGs in a corner and your SGs diagonally up from them so the walkers can't get to the gremlins and use your spells to kill the unicorns. Repair the SGs near the end of battle as you only get one repair from the MGs.

Against shooters guarding your mines you'll need to keep your MGs out of the battle and use gargoyles/golems. If you develop summoning and sorcery early and get wasp swarm you'll get by with few loses.

Nur is a good heroe for rushing as his mana replenishment ability helps you keep on the move. Jhora is good too since she starts with sorcery and cheaper spells.

GOW

[Alamar]

I know. I was referring to this:

To me the new strategy doesn't seem to help much more than traditional play on heroic difficulty.

With my playstyle [note the important phrase] the randomness in guardians, random resource piles laying around, random heroes, etc. outweigh the difference in strategy.

I would assume that the critical point to make is that I'm not playing the style properly.

My traditional style [FYI] is to go for low level buildings for the first few days. A mage guild level or two also sneaks in the first several days depending on resource amounts. Then I concentrate on mages && spell tower and hope to brute force my way through. I traditionally take gold the first 2 weeks to keep my economy going strong and to be able to buy out what I build so I can tackle the next level of bad guys.

With the new style I have tried to change up gold vs. XP from chests and make a stronger emphasis on building up the mage guild / mini artifacts but I never really find a good middle ground. It works well the first week but I often bog down dramatically in the second week and I don't see a good way around it.

Note I do play with random heroes so I can't guarantee Havez or any specific hero that could guarantee that this strat. works well. Also I don't seem to play on maps with very many wells on the map and I don't like exploits like fleeing from nuetrals so I can "teleport" to my castle instantly.
Given those limitations the "magic rush" doesn't seem to really do much for me ....

[Zwierz]

I think the wizard racial is good even at the begining thx to the consume artifact skill.
Before 1.4/2.0 this perk sucked big time but now it resurects your creatures and you want to use it at the end of combat when you lost a big chunk of your stack (even with only 1level equipment with bad knowledge at low levels it will help you quite a lot + it uses only 25% of initiative )
Mark of the wizard is a must of course
I take artifificier only to advanced level- level 3 stuff is to expensive without the ultimate level.
Becouse wizard has only 2% for the most might skills (and logistics) I realy don’t think you can build him up on those (This is why i think Razzak sux in normal game)
I usualy take summoning and destructive but it depends on what will i get at the guild.
Luck with perks that give you extra resources is good boost to your racial skill
Enlightenment is something i take for more mana and more power to racial skill.
Sorceery is something that you don’t whant to move out of home.Max it asap if you use summoning or destruct.
Heroes:Nur (good creaping and endless mana at higher levels) Havez (gremlins tent and balista) Nathir is ok on smal maps with his fireball

[Caradoc]

Thanks for the tips. I guess I've been having a bad run of luck, because I've been having a hard time capturing resources until week 3. I can usually take the wood/ore guards in week 2 with two builds of Mages, Golems, and Gremlins. But against shooters, my Gremlins are getting carved up, or if I hold them out I take similar losses with my Golems and Mages. Fast shooters like Master Hunters will wipe me out, since all these Academy armies have such low initiative. I can get some fast damage from Archmages, but my Master Gremlins are useless at long range.

I'm using my Genies to soften up the opposition rather than for direct attack. But are Master Genies worth it? I never see them cast Light spells.

And the Rakshasas come in late because of resource requirements. It's better to get the Collosi, right?

I feel like once I have everything built up and have some income coming in, my Academy will be pretty strong. But this is taking well into month 2, and I find I have fallen far behind the opposition.

I started out playing Hard, which is what I've done for the other factions, but even clicking back to Normal, I'm struggling. This is frustrating, since I've pretty much mastered Haven and Sylvan, and do well enough with Dungeon and Inferno. But clearly I'm missing something with Academy. Or as I said, I've been having a run of bad luck.

[aulfgar]

Here is my take on the MMR.

I start off on Heroic with usually Jhora or Nur, as they are my favorites. My build order is usually gremlins followed by Gargoyles followed by mage guild mage guild and then scrounging up resources for a town hall and possibly mages/golems. During the week I wont be back to town I wil run around with one stack of gremmies and 6 stacks of goyles. Against Walkers this strategy is awesome, shooters are more of a pain, but losing a few Gremlins isn't the end of the world early game.

Second week I concentrate on getting a level 5 mage guild and a library and working on my economy when resources lack. I usually come back for a maic refill and some more goyles and gremmies, sometimes if I am tight on cash I upgrade the Gremmies week 2 as well.

At this point hitting week three I can usualyl finish out my creature dwellings have a decent sized army and a castle or have a capitol due to monies gathered and most of my critter dwellings.

All in all the MMR is a very fun way to play if a bit slow on the turn cycle. I have won some really stupidly hard fights with it, like taking out Nightmares/Unicorns with small losses in week 2-3.

Any how just my two cents on it, its a fun strategy but not overpowered, I still love Dungeon best though!!