Adventures In Heroic

[winterfate]

Heroic is impossible!

Well, to tell you the truth I beat it once (but that was in Land of Outcasts, that 3 player FFA, so that hardly counts, the 2 Heroic AI's duked it out while I mustered an army, and even then the final hero battle was insane).

Is it consistently beatable? What should I do?
We could make this some sort of "post your quests and tips for beating the AI in Heroic" topic.

Let me write the few things I KNOW worked:

1. Play your best race (it's hard enough without the handicap of playing an unfamiliar race).
2a. Play "risky"- you're going to have to play faster than you ever have before for resources and even then you might lose (the computer at that level is evil).
2b. "Do NOT lose a huge part of your army in a neutral stack battle" (if you do, reload because you are probably going to lose the map).

So, that's what I do know.
Feel free to post tips and your own adventures in Heroic (which I'm sure were bloody and painful, as were mine ).

[okrane]

Well.... your're right... going 1v1 on heroic is really hard... I was rushed one time in week 3 by a hero with a horde of inquisitors...
I don't knowif there are any tips.. you should just play your best and expect the worse...

The problem is the AI cheats too much... I would have prefered the AI to get an advantage in the begining while the human player to start with 0 resources... this way the AI would still get strong but it would not have the huge unbeatable armies it does right now

[Alamar]

I think that the AI and humans should start on near equal footing and the AI should get daily bonuses to resources thereafter.

As it is the AI starts with the quivalent of 12 times the resources that a human starts with. After that for each 1$ they earn legally they, in effect, get an extra 2$ which means that esp. Haven can rush you and there's not always anything that you can do.

[wimfrits]

Resources are irrelevant imo.
With unlimited resources, the AI will build about as fast as the player does. The only difference is that the AI is able to recruit all creatures from town while the player is forced to only recruit the ones he needs for the job.
In the mean time, the AI is unable to win against high odds while the player can beat insane odds.

That should balance out quite nicely. In my experience though, the AI is still unable to match the players pace of expansion.

The only side where abundant resources can be a problem is Haven due to training.

[Sir_Toejam]

Haven due to training.

hence the "horde of inquisitors"

[okrane]

yeah, well that and the fat that it gets double growth...

I fought once against an AI which had a pack of black Dragons in week 5... 11 to be precice...
now doing a simple math... it takes 6 weeks minimum to get 12 BD... assuming that you have the building in week one...

[Jolly Joker]

Sure.
Week of...? Joins? Military Station?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Heroic is supposed to be hard. If you know the faction you are playing and use good tactics in battle and pay attention to your building order and how you build your heroe you should do fine.

GOW

[Alamar]

Resources are irrelevant imo.
With unlimited resources, the AI will build about as fast as the player does.

If you're real loose with the definition of "about" [where about means you'll stay kind of close on unupgraded buildings but nowhere close on upgraded buildings] then I guess that could be theoretically accurate.

The only difference is that the AI is able to recruit all creatures from town while the player is forced to only recruit the ones he needs for the job.

I'd say that's a pretty big difference esp. when the AI comes knocking in week 4 with an army that should wipe the floor with you. It's only the fact that the AI can only build a good hero through sheer luck and that it's not as clever as a human player that's turtled up in their castle that allows humans to win on a consistent basis.

My preferece would be for the AI to build substantially more powerful heroes [better skills & perks], have fewer economic advantages, and if we can improve the battle AI then that's icing on the cake

[okrane]

Sure.
Week of...? Joins? Military Station?

oh... get real, pls....

I'd say that's a pretty big difference esp. when the AI comes knocking in week 4 with an army that should wipe the floor with you. It's only the fact that the AI can only build a good hero through sheer luck and that it's not as clever as a human player that's turtled up in their castle that allows humans to win on a consistent basis.

My preferece would be for the AI to build substantially more powerful heroes [better skills & perks], have fewer economic advantages, and if we can improve the battle AI then that's icing on the cake

well sometimes you can beat him, sometimes you just cannot... even if you fight in your town...
In another battle I played was against an inferno computer. I was dungeon. The battle took place inside my town, so I had the tactical advantage. But the attacker had in week 6 22 Archdevils(do the math for this one too, JJ) whereas I had 10 matriarchs, 20 hydras and some furies. The 200 something imps ate all my mana and those devils one hit killed all my troops...
Now really... what kind of cleverness can one use against this type of brute force attack?

[wimfrits]

It's only the fact that the AI can only build a good hero through sheer luck and that it's not as clever as a human player that's turtled up in their castle that allows humans to win on a consistent basis.

AND the fact that battle AI can't keep up with the human player, usually allowing the human player to expand his territory a lot faster than the AI player. Imo that is the area where the player can straighten out the economic advantage the AI has.

My preferece would be for the AI to build substantially more powerful heroes [better skills & perks], have fewer economic advantages, and if we can improve the battle AI then that's icing on the cake

I don't think better hero builds would make enough of a difference. But better hero builds does sound good.
Improving battle AI is a touchy subject. Questions are: Do you want to play an AI opponent that plays on an equal level as you do? and Is that even possible? Opinions differ. Personally, I'd say 'no' to both.

But the attacker had in week 6 22 Archdevils

That's odd. Did the numbers of the rest of his army match those 22 archdevils?

[Jolly Joker]

@Okrane
You don't have to play on Heroic, do you?
And it would be nice if you could name the map you were playing with those battles-

[okrane]

@Okrane
And it would be nice if you could name the map you were playing with those battles-

versus pack of BD: Land of the Outcasts
versus 22 Archdevils: Ashes and Sands... and yes the rest of the army did check out... as he had 70+ nigtmares and a ton of imps... and the rest of the crew...

You don't have to play on Heroic, do you?

well, no... but against a computer player the Hard difficulty isn't that challenging, and the Heroic is nearly impossible... so you see my problem... there is no difficulty setting that's satisfying for me...

[Elvin]

@Okrane
You don't have to play on Heroic, do you?

Of course.When something is wrong JJ will be there to tell us not to waste our time on it Then why is it there if it is not to be used?Shouldn't it be fair/fixed?You think it's right to defend broken things?
No comment.

[Alamar]

AND the fact that battle AI can't keep up with the human player, usually allowing the human player to expand his territory a lot faster than the AI player. Imo that is the area where the player can straighten out the economic advantage the AI has.

You obviously play differently from how I play. From what I can tell the AI expands its territory much more quickly than I do most of the time. The only thing that slows one AI faction down is the risk that they'll run into another powerful AI faction.

NOTE: I do have to play conservatively because I know that WHEN [not if] the AI visits during weeks 3 or 4 I'll need to be able to run back to my castle before the AI can get there to stand any reasonable chance.

My preferece would be for the AI to build substantially more powerful heroes [better skills & perks], have fewer economic advantages, and if we can improve the battle AI then that's icing on the cake

I don't think better hero builds would make enough of a difference. But better hero builds does sound good.
Improving battle AI is a touchy subject. Questions are: Do you want to play an AI opponent that plays on an equal level as you do? and Is that even possible? Opinions differ. Personally, I'd say 'no' to both.

The ability to cast Mass spells, take good perks, etc. is what I find wins most of those early battles against the AI for me [that and my castle]. If the AI had heroes with better skill sets I think I'd honestly lose about 80% of the time instead of winning 80% of the time [no reload] or 90+% of the time with reloads allowed.

I'm not sure what you mean about "an equal level as I do". If you mean do I WISH that the AI could play as well as a human the answer is YES. Anyone that doesn't answer YES to that question doesn't want the best for the game IMHO. Do I think that's really feasible or even a realistic goal .... NO

I do think that it's possible for the AI to build heroes as well or better than I do though. With better heroees [abilities & spells] I would think that it would mean they would need fewer troops to provide the proper level of challenge. This would be a step forward IMHO.

Also note that I wrote "a better battle AI is icing on the cake". I think it would be nice to have a better battle AI but I admit that is a very difficult issue to resolve. If you can make it better then GOOD. If not then hopefully if the AI has better heroes this will help.

[ThunderTitan]

@Okrane
You don't have to play on Heroic, do you?

Dude, do you even hear yourself. No wonder ppl are accussing you of being biased.

Then again i doubt you'll ever match Nival's "play withput saves" statement.


The AI should play without cheats and handicaps if only to allow ppl to see how good it can play. That's what dificulty lvls should be for. I wish more devs would get that.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Okrane
You don't have to play on Heroic, do you?

I really dont understand you.You say that youd prefer to see AI difficulty and its bonuses/handicaps separated,yet you then write something as contradictory as the above.At least e consistent.

Btw,Id have hardly any complaints if this was some 10 or 20 year old game,when AI algorhitms were much weaker and when processors simply couldnt handle complicated ones,but now....

[Jolly Joker]

Call me an idiot, but I think that people many people may simply not play the game good enough to beat it on heroic level.
Heroes III was easy on heroic. H V is a bit more difficult. You have to play aggressively and you have to know exactly what you are doing.
Ask chuckles, he plays heroic exclusively. He doesn't seem to have those kind of problems.

[azzy]

If the game had a really profoundly developed AI, with the current graphics, it would have been unplayable for most of us. Not everyone can upgrade every second month. My computer is 3 yaers old for example and I practically can't play the largest map size because of my 512 ram... The devs have this in regard as well when they prepare their product. In another world where NASA gives out computetrs to people like me and you for Christmas I would complain as well, don't worry about this.
This is not the first game where AI cheats, so i guess I am already used to it (but not happy at all). This is the ballance between AI and graphics I talked about in another topic... Most people are looking for better graphics, not better gameplay => developers emphasize on the visual side of their games. A major revolt would be needed to change the current history of game development from evolution only in graphics to a real gameplay evolution.

The AI in Heroes V will develop only after a better optimization of the engine in some future patch, when there are free resources for it. This is my educated guess.

As for the Heroic difficulty, yes it can be chalanging, especially on small maps when you are rushed by the computer. When I am with smaller army
omputer (who goes after them instead of my castle), while with my main hero I attack his castle. In this way I win time for building creatures because the AI comes back to get his castle. I play a cat and mouse play, but on the mouse side (important note: watching Tom & Jerry helps to become a better homm 5 player )

In the beggining of a game it is VITAL to flag as much mines as possible with the least casualties and this is trained by a lot of playing. There is not a real way to teach somewone this, just practise A LOT. Do not expect to win from the first time you play, you need also patience. With every game you'll get better and finally you'll be able to win against the AI 1vs1.

GOOD LUCK!!!

edit:
JJ
you could just say:
STFU NooBs

some people would understand you better

[Jolly Joker]

@Okrane
You don't have to play on Heroic, do you?

I really dont understand you.You say that youd prefer to see AI difficulty and its bonuses/handicaps separated,yet you then write something as contradictory as the above.At least e consistent.

Btw,Id have hardly any complaints if this was some 10 or 20 year old game,when AI algorhitms were much weaker and when processors simply couldnt handle complicated ones,but now....

What I said was that I'd want a separatation of the amount of starting money and resources and the amount of neutrals placed. So that you would be able to play with the 10000 set on maps with normal difficulty amounts of neutrals.