Holy crap-You MUST see this! (academy strat)

[Mytical]

Ok, first I'll appologize for the comment. Then I will point out some problems with your theory.



Ok, first off, the build you have is one I myself always used. 2nd off, gremlins indeed add to a fight, but on heroic you are not going to get far with them, even if you have a good starting number of them. For the first part, they are relitively weak (especially since wizards have such low att and defense skill). You would have to face only slow walkers, slow unupgraded flyers, or tier 1 creatures only. Otherwise your gremlins will go down fast. You could not fight (on heroic) any ranged or casters at all. At least not for quite awhile. There goes a lot of resources and experience. If your mines and such are guarded by any of the following (especially on heroic) even if you manage to win you'd have little troops left.

Hunters, Master Hunters, Druids, Elder Druids, Succubi, Succubi Mistresses, Archers, Marksmen, Battle Griffins (and perhaps regular), Priests, Inquisitors, any level 5 or higher upgraded or not, Magi, Archmagi, ect. Now true this is the same for quite a few towns, but since you have a lot of resource needs this is much more true for Academy. Remember you only start with a few resources and what..15k cash? Doesn't go very far. Heroic means that regardless of what is there there are a LOT of them, and even if you use both magic and creatures, you are going to get hurt, bad. Using much more magic will limit the losses, but remember mana only goes so far. And anything of value is always heavily guarded by something. If you don't make a few trips back to your town (especially for spells) you can't get far on heroic. Easy almost deffinately, normal perhaps, hard if you are lucky, and heroic sorry I would actually have to sit behind you and see it first hand.

Now you say you take exp not gold (which really puts your building behind mind you). So you have to find 2k or higher gold cashes to really benifit after awhile, 500exp doesn't go far after awhile. Meanwhile somebody who takes some exp and some gold may have a little less exp (but not neccessarily levels) but more buildings. (remember at day 3 you still only have the spell you start with because you still dont have a mage guild yet).

Now anybody who knows a map inside out and backwards can do really great on that map. So you know these maps really well and you know what is where. Yes, if you play the same map over and over and over, you will do terrific. So I have a challenge for you, use RMG. Make it resouce heavy if you want, but play blind. See how well this does. On heroic I think you will not make it as far as any other town.

Tell me if you don't go back for the spells (even if only once) what good is having expert spells skills? So you have to backtrack, plain and simple. Since you can not raise a second hero to the level needed to have both expert magic skills (identical to your main heros) and the skill to transfer the spells that is. Not enough exp to go arround for that. Since you do not have logistics, you are not traveling very far in a day either. (Somebody with expert logistics and pathfinding say could travel back to their castles frequently and still be as far as you). If you rely on Town Portal remember there is limits to when/how you get this. On any map but a resource laden, familiar, map it just would not work.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm missing two key buildings here: Arcane Forge (no mini artis without it) and Library (5 spells missing, for example Armageddon).
Furthermore, if that was heroic level you´d need a lot of Ore very early, but more importantly, with that building order you need 6 Sulfur up to day 7 and thanks to the mage guild 2 a Gem as well, not impossible, but awkward. Level 2 mage guild is a bad build at that point, in my opinion, because you are not guaranteed to get a useful spell there, but wasting a potentially needed resource. At this point you still have the option to forego the Mages and the town hall and go for Blacksmith and Golems instead.
On heroic level there is no way to regularly plan on getting 6 units of a certain precious resource within week 2. The maps I play see level 4 creatures as guards very often, and there is just no way to beat most of them without heavy losses at that early a stage, so it would seem that this can work the way it is described only on very specific maps.
So while I'm fully supporting the magical way the Academy goes I rather suspect that the outcome is more the result of the map being played. So the decisive question here is:

WHAT MAP DID YOU PLAY?

[Mytical]

I don't mean to sound incredulous, but first off you had all expert skills in the first fight and your enemy had junk. Sorry, I won't accept that as an example. Your going to show me a fight, show me where the people are same level, with smart skills. 2nd Dungeon can most certainly fight that enemy. First the skilled dungeon player will have Expert IM so your magic resistance means little or nothing. 2nd, they too will have Sorcery, so you are not casting much more quickly then they (maybe with the one that has the sorcery special), and if they get first cast and do Armeggedon you can bend over and kiss your behind goodbye. Sure they may loose also, but you would loose, so meh.

2nd 340 familiars is not such a stretch, believe me (and don't forget gating shall we). I am not wanting to cause you issue, I think the strategy works in some well contained and limited circumstances, I just don't think it works at all not in those circumstances.

[DaemianLucifer]

Ok.Not counting your treasury,this is what the map has to provide you with:

Day building
1 gremlin workshop 5o
2 gremlin manufactory 1000g,10o
3 magic tower 1 1500g,5w,5o
4 magic tower 2 500g,5w,5o,1g,1s,1m,1c
5 1000 gold supply 2000g
6 stone parapet 200g,10o
7 mage tower 1500g,10o,10s,5g
8 2000 supply 4000g
9 blacksmith 5w; 1000 gold to spare
10 rest 3000 gold to spare
11 golem forge 5o,5m,5g; 3500 gold to spare
12 magic tower 3 5w,5o,2g,2s,2m,2c; 4500 gold to spare
13 alter of wishes 5o,10m; 3500 gold to spare
14 treasure cave 2500 gold to spare
15 4000 supply 5000d
16 magic tower 4 5w,5o,3g,3s,3m,3c; 3500 gold to spare
17 magic tower 5 5w,5o,5g,5s,5m,5c; 7000 gold to spare
18 fort 10w; 6000 gold to spare
19 citadel 10o; 5000 gold to spare
20 castle 10w,10o; 4000 gold to spare
21 cloud coliseum 4000g,10w,10o,5g

And thats not counting the creatures you buy.So,you need at least one gold mine by the end of first week,two saw mills,two ore pits,and one of each special resource mines.And you will need a few piles of resources,so basically you need a very resource rich map,and a nice set of guardians near the mines(meaning you dont get druids,or mages near your closest mines).So yeah,you relly on luck quite a lot.Im not saying that it cant work,but that its risky.

[raistlinz]

Ok, first I'll appologize for the comment. Then I will point out some problems with your theory.



Ok, first off, the build you have is one I myself always used. 2nd off, gremlins indeed add to a fight, but on heroic you are not going to get far with them, even if you have a good starting number of them. For the first part, they are relitively weak (especially since wizards have such low att and defense skill). You would have to face only slow walkers, slow unupgraded flyers, or tier 1 creatures only. Otherwise your gremlins will go down fast. You could not fight (on heroic) any ranged or casters at all. At least not for quite awhile. There goes a lot of resources and experience. If your mines and such are guarded by any of the following (especially on heroic) even if you manage to win you'd have little troops left.

Hunters, Master Hunters, Druids, Elder Druids, Succubi, Succubi Mistresses, Archers, Marksmen, Battle Griffins (and perhaps regular), Priests, Inquisitors, any level 5 or higher upgraded or not, Magi, Archmagi, ect. Now true this is the same for quite a few towns, but since you have a lot of resource needs this is much more true for Academy. Remember you only start with a few resources and what..15k cash? Doesn't go very far. Heroic means that regardless of what is there there are a LOT of them, and even if you use both magic and creatures, you are going to get hurt, bad. Using much more magic will limit the losses, but remember mana only goes so far. And anything of value is always heavily guarded by something. If you don't make a few trips back to your town (especially for spells) you can't get far on heroic. Easy almost deffinately, normal perhaps, hard if you are lucky, and heroic sorry I would actually have to sit behind you and see it first hand.

Now you say you take exp not gold (which really puts your building behind mind you). So you have to find 2k or higher gold cashes to really benifit after awhile, 500exp doesn't go far after awhile. Meanwhile somebody who takes some exp and some gold may have a little less exp (but not neccessarily levels) but more buildings. (remember at day 3 you still only have the spell you start with because you still dont have a mage guild yet).

Now anybody who knows a map inside out and backwards can do really great on that map. So you know these maps really well and you know what is where. Yes, if you play the same map over and over and over, you will do terrific. So I have a challenge for you, use RMG. Make it resouce heavy if you want, but play blind. See how well this does. On heroic I think you will not make it as far as any other town.

Tell me if you don't go back for the spells (even if only once) what good is having expert spells skills? So you have to backtrack, plain and simple. Since you can not raise a second hero to the level needed to have both expert magic skills (identical to your main heros) and the skill to transfer the spells that is. Not enough exp to go arround for that. Since you do not have logistics, you are not traveling very far in a day either. (Somebody with expert logistics and pathfinding say could travel back to their castles frequently and still be as far as you). If you rely on Town Portal remember there is limits to when/how you get this. On any map but a resource laden, familiar, map it just would not work.

Well, you've used havez, right? If you did, you'll see the power of 100+ gremlins in week 1; If not, use Jhora or Nur can start with about 60-70 gremlins. Use it well and make your Stone Gargoyles stay at the right position, I don't know how well you can play, I can keep creeping with those gremlins and Stone Gargoyles for nearly 1 week without stop and go back or mana crisis. Surely there are some strong creature stand your way, how to clean them I won't tell you anyway, try figure that out by yourself. In our bbs lots of players match in different maps for several months, you think they don't meet those problems you just said? We break it anyway, and the result you see is after countless battles and tests. So, I can only say that you may try it yourself to work it out.

And the chest thing is flexible, no one tell you what you should take from the chest, it's up to you and the map.

The back town thing: when we play we really put efforts on the maps, not only on mystic, any map has some routes you can follow, which make your creeping more efficiently. So go back is for sure, just the matter of time and occasion.

We all serious about all the stuff we put on, even I don't in the match, I'm still try to learn something from all the battlefield reports posted every weekend. So if you don't trust us, that's ok, just suit yourself.

Ok.Not counting your treasury,this is what the map has to provide you with:

Day building
1 gremlin workshop 5o
2 gremlin manufactory 1000g,10o
3 magic tower 1 1500g,5w,5o
4 magic tower 2 500g,5w,5o,1g,1s,1m,1c
5 1000 gold supply 2000g
6 stone parapet 200g,10o
7 mage tower 1500g,10o,10s,5g
8 2000 supply 4000g
9 blacksmith 5w; 1000 gold to spare
10 rest 3000 gold to spare
11 golem forge 5o,5m,5g; 3500 gold to spare
12 magic tower 3 5w,5o,2g,2s,2m,2c; 4500 gold to spare
13 alter of wishes 5o,10m; 3500 gold to spare
14 treasure cave 2500 gold to spare
15 4000 supply 5000d
16 magic tower 4 5w,5o,3g,3s,3m,3c; 3500 gold to spare
17 magic tower 5 5w,5o,5g,5s,5m,5c; 7000 gold to spare
18 fort 10w; 6000 gold to spare
19 citadel 10o; 5000 gold to spare
20 castle 10w,10o; 4000 gold to spare
21 cloud coliseum 4000g,10w,10o,5g

And thats not counting the creatures you buy.So,you need at least one gold mine by the end of first week,two saw mills,two ore pits,and one of each special resource mines.And you will need a few piles of resources,so basically you need a very resource rich map,and a nice set of guardians near the mines(meaning you dont get druids,or mages near your closest mines).So yeah,you relly on luck quite a lot.Im not saying that it cant work,but that its risky.

I just want to say:

1 The order is real.
2 the order is not a rule. It happened in one battle and the player will change the order consider of the resources & gold he can get. And I can't sure even the same guy play the same map can do the same order. It's just a reference. You can change it in different maps with different condition.
3 If not a rich map, it's equal anyway, it doesn't means the opponent can have some superiority or academy is going down.

[DaemianLucifer]

Necromancer can because he doesnt need resources that much.Resource poor maps are a heaven for a necro.Also,if you develop so much better than your enemy that means that either he was bussy fighting someone else,or you had a better position.

[Mytical]

Still no answer to my challenge. Try No Man's land..try creeping and such there. I have tried just about all combos with all Academy heroes (with and without mods) everything from all magic to just light/destruction with supporting skills. I've used your build, I've tried a thousand different builds (townwise). On all skill levels. Easy to hard I can do ok, but on heroic even with havez (since level decides bonuses) gremlins are just too frail. No way in first 3 days (at least) you are going to take any ranged or casters (other then gremlins or skelly archers). Just is not going to happen. Even if you split them into 6 stacks to limit deaths (and gargs as 1 stack). Level 1 100 Master gremlins do what max of 300 damage (plus factor in defense difference of enemy to MG's attack). Not enough per round to really do much to heroic stacks of ranged/casters. At least with Skelly archers the necros can bring back most of the losses..you once they are lost, they are lost. Even if you manage to do it, it is going to cost you. Remember that for awhile you don't have really potent spells, limited mana, and your level 1's are really frail. You might win, but at what cost?

[raistlinz]

I don't mean to sound incredulous, but first off you had all expert skills in the first fight and your enemy had junk. Sorry, I won't accept that as an example. Your going to show me a fight, show me where the people are same level, with smart skills. 2nd Dungeon can most certainly fight that enemy. First the skilled dungeon player will have Expert IM so your magic resistance means little or nothing. 2nd, they too will have Sorcery, so you are not casting much more quickly then they (maybe with the one that has the sorcery special), and if they get first cast and do Armeggedon you can bend over and kiss your behind goodbye. Sure they may loose also, but you would loose, so meh.

One tip for the dungeon part: there are 100+Obsidian Gargoyle at the beginning, let's just say 100. If dungeon cast Armeggedon first, they should do 100*20=2000 damage to kill the stack, you think dungeon can do that? When? And Obsidian Gargoyle is immune to fire magic, so 2000 is just a basic; consider the army of dungeon, do you think Armeggedon is a choice? It's suicide.

[raistlinz]

Still no answer to my challenge. Try No Man's land..try creeping and such there. I have tried just about all combos with all Academy heroes (with and without mods) everything from all magic to just light/destruction with supporting skills. I've used your build, I've tried a thousand different builds (townwise). On all skill levels. Easy to hard I can do ok, but on heroic even with havez (since level decides bonuses) gremlins are just too frail. No way in first 3 days (at least) you are going to take any ranged or casters (other then gremlins or skelly archers). Just is not going to happen. Even if you split them into 6 stacks to limit deaths (and gargs as 1 stack). Level 1 100 Master gremlins do what max of 300 damage (plus factor in defense difference of enemy to MG's attack). Not enough per round to really do much to heroic stacks of ranged/casters. At least with Skelly archers the necros can bring back most of the losses..you once they are lost, they are lost. Even if you manage to do it, it is going to cost you. Remember that for awhile you don't have really potent spells, limited mana, and your level 1's are really frail. You might win, but at what cost?

Ok, I'll spread the word to our bbs. You just wait.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm used to being ignored, but I still think I deserve an answer here.

WHAT MAP DID YOU PLAY? Is it specifically constructed for the purpose?

And DL, you obvously never played heroic. You start with 10 O/W and 5 of the rest.

[Pitsu]

I'm used to being ignored, but I still think I deserve an answer here.

WHAT MAP DID YOU PLAY? Is it specifically constructed for the purpose?

Haven't they told already many times that it is Mystics Vale (Lost Town).?

[Mytical]

Actually yes, seeing as it has a physical componit as well (and thus goes right by your immunity to fire) and don't forget if you have a large army chances are they have just as large or larger of one. And you are saying you can do more then they can with armeggedon? Please. Sure if the sides are lopsided and you have much more creatures then they do, you will win. In an equal fight (ie same ammount of creatures ect) they will. First by Empowered Armeggedon (which will wipe out just about both sides) then by something such as empowered implosion or something else (that your gargoyles are NOT immune to). Chances the creatures (if any) would be a few gargs, a few hydras (very tough critters), and maybe a smattering of dragons and titans..the dragons probably would go first, and there would go your gargs or titans. However, even without armeggeddon there is a dozen different strategies. Empowered Chain Lightning, Empowered Meteor Shower (on your fastest stacks), and a dozen different things they could do. Remember your mini-arts of MR mean absolutely nothing to them.

And like I said, you are playing on a few maps and I am guessing most are resource rich. Try a few that have limited resources. You will find that academy is hurting. Not only do you have to come up with all the resources for your buildings, but your mini artifacts as well, or that armeggeddon will do as much to you as your enemy. Not a good move for Academy.

[86wyp]

Well Raistlinz is not here so let me answer your doubt.

See my post on page 4, the library was built in week 4. The Jhora player himself didn't mention artifacts for hero so I guess he didn't build that. Instead he uesd the money on Titans.

The map we were talking about is Mystic's Vale

Now it seems to me that you and the mystical have two big problems.

One: How can I fight those mobs on the first week on heroic level.

Basically we use motw+arrow. Then trap and swarm if possible. That's it(at least thats what I know). To get the two magic need a little luck. But we can hit at least level 9 in one week with only motw and arrow. How? I can hardly say any more, just fight, throw magic, thats it. When you face some very tough mobs I admit that it would be a hard time for an Academy player. But normally we would take over the mines we need even if that means great loss to our army. Because army isn't that important to Academy, while magic is. MF need practice too, I have told you what you need for mf, now it's time for you to practice. Of course getting enough resources is not an easy task, but we managed to do it. Why not try to make a plan before you going hunting for exp and resources? repeat use the map Mystic's Vale.

Two: this strategy is map restricted.
I would say, the build order is map restricted yes(but you may have more than one thoice in the same map,see Jhora and Nur), but this strategy isn't. Do you know the map Trofile in expension? That map is poor, veryvery poor, very hard to get high level creatures. But one of us still managed to build 5th magic tower in 3 weeks on heroic level. Yes MMR is resources based but first everyone need resources(maybe less than Academy do). The point is that using some great heros like Nur Jhora and a couple of magic Academy can fight tough mobs when other factions cannot. Another related reason is that Academy can take big loss for their army in MF because their power is magic based, while other factions cannot because they beg for more warriors. After a loss of 100 peasents in MF haven will have 100 marksman less in the big battle. But After a loss of 50 gremlin in MF Academy still have phoenix and implosion. Necropolis is fast in the first week? No. If you can use Academy well then you will find Academy much faster than Necropolis.

[DaemianLucifer]

I'm used to being ignored, but I still think I deserve an answer here.

WHAT MAP DID YOU PLAY? Is it specifically constructed for the purpose?

You were answered:

map: Mystic's Vale

And DL, you obvously never played heroic. You start with 10 O/W and 5 of the rest.

I didnt know if they changed that or not.Still,you will spend all those rather quickly.

[raistlinz]

I'm used to being ignored, but I still think I deserve an answer here.

WHAT MAP DID YOU PLAY? Is it specifically constructed for the purpose?

And DL, you obvously never played heroic. You start with 10 O/W and 5 of the rest.

I believe I've posted that early.

Mystic's Vale, you can check up.

But I also said the order is not a rule but a referrence.

That's it.

[Mytical]

All in all it is a great strategy. It can work, with a LOT of luck, your enemy being unlucky, and lots of resources. It is feasible and doable, but yes very map and resource dependant. Dungeon can do about the same to a lesser extint (low mana but more damage output) and assassins have the extra bonus of poison (even if lower damage initially). Also it doesn't hurt bad to loose assassins. (Furies yes, assasins not so much). If they can get master Destruct magic and Sorcery, they like Wizards can basically walk over most of the neutrals.

[86wyp]

All in all it is a great strategy. It can work, with a LOT of luck, your enemy being unlucky, and lots of resources. It is feasible and doable, but yes very map and resource dependant. Dungeon can do about the same to a lesser extint (low mana but more damage output) and assassins have the extra bonus of poison (even if lower damage initially). Also it doesn't hurt bad to loose assassins. (Furies yes, assasins not so much). If they can get master Destruct magic and Sorcery, they like Wizards can basically walk over most of the neutrals.

You know what, I have said sth. and it seems that you don't give a shit of it and you even don't want to have a try(I know you have tried a lot before). In the first week Academy is much faster than dungeon no matter what dungeon hero you choose. Anyway you won't believe too.

For Jhora's fight, four more levels won't buff your magical damage much, and 5 dragons won't survive more than 1 turn. you have only Implosion in that fight but can cast empowered implosion only three times. Of course that is not enough,and don't forget Jhora had resurrection. One more thing, in that game dungeon had less resources than Academy due to the fact I have said so the player went for matriarch instead of the dragons because he saw the Bow. That was a huge mistake because his mighty matriarch was cleared by one implosion. But the problem was the dungeon player had not know what magic Academy had, so if itwas me i may still go for matriarch.

For the Kaspar fight yes both players made mistakes that fight(as i said Academy didn't bring all of its army) but Academy still beat an army which was twice as big. If you think kaspar's skills are useless then it means that you don't know how to play necroplois, although I agree that it would be better to choose defense instead of enlightenment.

If you didn't see it I will claim it again on this forum: every player in those games is one of our best.

[Banedon]

First of all,thank you very much.

4 That's a little misunderstanding: here in china, we use the word "lao wai" to all the foreigners(black/brown/white/yellow), it's more like a a general designation rather than racialism.

5 We not "attack" them, if we seems a little rude just because some guys around there keep judging without even try it a little bit. If they can be open mind enough to try this strategy, none of that arguements would even happen.

About questions: It's a real match, so we must get rid of all crap skills. Logistics have nothing good to do when using Academy, and with the MMR, academy can eat all the exp in the chest in week 1 and rush most of the creepings, the record we got here is level 15 in week 1. Then construction is just 1-3 level army and all put on magic and congress. So we can have level 5 magic and congress in week 2 or early week 3. The hero would be at least level 15 by then, so with the level5 summon/destructive/dark magic, with little army we can beat nearly all the creatures on the map without stop. Then the money is good enough to boost out titan. With 5 titan In week5 needs a little skill, but we could win without titan anyway. And it's not the point of this strategy, we could use that 20000+ gold and lots of resources to do anything in week3-week4, not just titan.

#4: I will ask my friend on this. It still seems degrading to me, but I'll ask him if it has non-degrading uses.

#5: You cannot convince anyone that the strategy works unless there exists grounds for making it work. Suppose I told you I can beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins. Will you believe me? Obviously not. Then I'll start scolding you for not trying it out. Would you try? Well unless you're a real maniac, no - there's no need to! So unless I can provide a convincing way to show that 3 Gremlins beat 10 Titans, you don't even need to get started.

Anyway I read hostility in your posts. One of your latest specifically stated "otherwise I myself can stuff their mouths". That's certainly offensive.

@Logistics - you're very courageous not to take it. The player with Logistics would move faster and therefore threaten you more. With Logistics Vittorio might have taken the Academy town early...

I may not be the best Heroes 5 player around - in fact, I doubt I can maneuveur the heroes around in such a way to achieve all that you mention about speed developing (well, not yet). But in the battle itself I fancy myself competent, and I will test the most unbelievable of the Academy wins: that against the Haven force. If you can, do provide the Academy player's skills. I'll ask the optimal Haven skills from the other players here.

EDIT: 86wyp - you're remarkably arrogant. First you say we have no idea how to play Academy. Then you say we have no idea how to play Necropolis. But what makes you so sure that your own way of playing Necropolis is not flawed?

[Mytical]

*sighs* let me try this again. I never said I don't believe you, if you play Mystic Vale enough I am sure you can do a bang up job. As for Dungeon not creeping as fast as you, well I do disagree but because I have played both many ways, not just out of the top of my head. I am probably one of the worst players MP that you could ever find, but I would be willing to meet you in MP on any map that start out pretty equal on both sides. (ie same basic resources, same type guardians ect) with neither side knowing the map at all. Preferably some type of random map so it would be impossible to know before hand. Your creeping would not work. Even if the thing was very resource rich, if we started on heroic. When you found me I would be about the same level, with a much bigger army, and you would find a much harder task of defeating me. Like I said, I am a horrible MP player. If you can't beat me with this strategy then it is not a very good one. If you do not only will I willingly admit defeat but make a public appology. Simple ay?

[Jolly Joker]

Well, actually I'm not doubting that it works, on the contrary because it's pretty natural for Academy to go that way. I even think that the given building order for the Jhora player isn't good and could have been even better. It would show on a more difficult map than Mystic's Vale which is probably the easiest map out there.