Barbarian Hero/Units/Town setup suggestions

[ThunderTitan]

Probably right with too many magic related skills. But sacrificing creatures for some advantages doesn't sound too bad.

So the racial would be SACRIFICE (for example) and would maybe allow sacrificing creatures to give a hero better stats and or abilities.

Too much like the other 2.

Their special could be some MR and some sort of Rage ability, increasing some stats at the expense of others... or giving abilities this round and making the creature weak the next.

And if they feel there aren't enough unique specials they can always check out D&D or WH some more.... or even other games.


And JJ, they'd still be like in H3, just with only the BM.

[soupnazii]

actually, i really like the idea of sacrifice. and DL: I disagree with you. there are plenty of unique specials, maybe you cant think of them.

[tb5841]

When I first heard the idea of a naga town, long before HoF, I thought I'd attempt designing them. I had them as a water-based rather than swamp-based town, and gave them a water-walk special. Hero's army can move over water, as long as it ends its turn on land (can only use if hero only has Naga units, to prevent other teams all buying Naga heroes when needed). Amount of movement points used for water travel depends on skill level, could also confer combat bonuses during sea battles. Could then have Naga towns in water instead of on land

Idea could be great for singleplayer maps/campaigns, but would be too map-dependant on multiplayer maps, and the whole idea feels like a complete ripoff from Warcraft III. So wouldn't really work - but it didn't take long to think up, I'm sure there are lots of brilliant skill ideas out there that Nival could use.

[Mytical]

Here is an odd but I think useful (could be underpowered however) racial skill they could have.

Spirit Unity (do to shaman thought here). Basic - Negate -1 to morale penalty that is do to any cause. Any more then -1 to morale still applies, and this does not give them morale boost.

Advance - Negate -2 to morale penalty do to any cause. See basic.

Expert - Negates -3 to morale penalty. Also can take morale above 0. When two units are side by side they can retaliate against a common enemy (does not count as an attack so they do not retaliate against the one that they did not attack). Only the unit that is attacked and one other can benifit from this and it is always the strongest unit next to the attacked unit.

Master - No morale penalties apply at all. Always at least +1 morale. Up to 3 units side by side can retaliate against one enemy. (see expert).

Perhaps too powerful, but would be interesting. If the extra retals are too much, ditch them for some other useful benifit like cheaper prices in tradeposts, ect.

[Jolly Joker]

The normal skill would be weaker than Leadership then, which wouldn't cut it for a racial, I think.

[Gaidal Cain]

Here is an odd but I think useful (could be underpowered however) racial skill they could have.
[...]
Perhaps too powerful, but would be interesting.

Which is it- underpowered, or overpowered?

I'd say way underpowered unless there is a way to get several creatures from different town tyoes in some way. Otherwise it's just a weaker version of leadership.

[Mytical]

Could be either depending how you look at it, and you could use many different town creatures together since the skill negates the morle penalty. (Basic level you could use 3 types, Advanced 4, Expert 5, and Mastery any that you like (use 7 and it wont matter). The inital skill may be underpowered, but the expert and master may be a little overpowered (getting extra retals). So it is both.

Also leadership stacks with this. If you have a +1 morale, get a 3rd unit (with basic Spirit Unity) you would stay +1 morale. If you had master leadership and visited a +2 morale location, had Expert Spirit unity, and 7 different towns you would still have a Positive morale (if my calculations are correct it would be +4 morale).

If you had no leadership, 7 (different town) units, master spirit unity, and enemy used banshee howl you would still have a +1 morale.

[gregthanatos]

There have been a lot of good ideas for the racial ability. My favorite so far is Mytical's idea of magic suppression.

Barbarians might have the chance to disrupt any spell that is cast, causing it to fizzle away. Level 1= 20% probability that any spell cast by any hero or unit would not be effective, Lev 2=40, Lev 3=50 ultimate=60.

If a building gave a 10% chance also it could add up to a 70% chance that any spell cast would be useless. Hopefully Barbarians wont have magic at all, or at least no magic over level 2. Even if they have all 5 levels in the mage guild, if their own racial ability worked on them also, barbarians wouldn't cast many spells.

Secondary skills could be a 20% magical resistance (that would stack with the defence specialization, and be subordinate to the warlocks racial ability) and a skill to increase the heroes raw physical damage by 50%

I like this kind of idea because it would make the faction play differently than the others.

[Mytical]

Edited my above post btw. Yeah Like the anti magic myself (thank you btw). Might make them a tad overpowered; however, since they would probably be att/deffense oriented. Still wouldn't affect any spells you cast on your own units (bless, haste, AA ect) so while destruction/dark might be of limited effect...light/summons would not.

[Jolly Joker]

I think you want to have a town that has their own creatures.
A Leadership skill would make sense only if you had a dwelling that would work like the late Refugee Camp, but creatures were hirable there without any cost. Certainly a help at start, but useless later on.
Still, I admit that a "riff-raff" element for Orcs MIGHT be possible.

For magic resistance, again: we are talking ORCS here, not Barbarians. There are no Barbarians. The non magic Barbarian element was only a feature of the HEROES hirable, that's all. I can't see any reason why Orc heroes should have something like a skill that would give magic resistance. Even if they had that alone wouldn't cut it because that would be an advantage only in battle against the other towns not in fights against neutrals. I don't really like the idea because it necessarily means super creatures with might stats and 4 unusable skills for Orc heroes vcombined with a massive imbalance concerning Dark and Destructice against Summoning and Light OR an even bigger imbalance in case the Orc heroes themselves COULD cast magic.
Not to mention the fact that with the limited action potential of the single hero the idea of a magically inapt hero is more than boring.

[Mytical]

I can agree with most of that JJ. Just because I like the idea doesn't mean it is the best out there. I like the idea of a town that can coexsist with other towns and units with little or no penalty, again that is just me. The building you suggested would be akin (if not exactly) the refugee camp, with a variety of creatures possible, but only 1 type hireable per week (imo at least). Coupled with the sacrifice ability this could get interesting (if you can couple them that is). And morale works for both casters and Melee so you don't have to think of it as a Melee ability.

[Jolly Joker]

I forgot to add that the riff-raff element might not only be possible, but make some sense for "wandering" elements there.

Said "no moral penalty for combining elements of other towns with their own could be a Sacrifice based ability then (which sounds a bit strange; still Enticing seems quite nice).

[gregthanatos]

I was thinking that the racial would involve the probability that any spell cast by any hero or unit on the battle map would not work but would still drain the mana used to cast it. This would work against neutral units, light, dark, summoning, and destructive spells as well as the barbarian hero's own spells. It would have the probability to nulify ANY spell cast by anyone or anything.

It would be very usefull in fights against some neutrals because the neutral wizards fireballs, druids lightning, and pit fiends meteor shower spells can cripple unwary armies.

It would not necissarily be overpowered due to a preference to attack and defence in the barbarian hero because it could be balenced within the barbarian units. Barbarian units are traditionaly very weak in hitpoints and defence but numerous and possessing high attack and high damage.
Combine this with mediocre speed and initiative and, barbarians would be powerfull but with exploitable weaknesses.

With a few combat oriented secondary skills and interesting units the hero's lack of usefull magic wouldnt be boring. The barbarian hero could also still cast spells but would face the same % chance of them failing as any other hero or unit facing him.

A barbarian hero doesn't necessarily have to be a Orc. The main race could be troll, orc, ogre, goblin or (my favorite) this could be the first town without a constant racial theme to the heros. It makes sence that barbarians wouldn't have a defined ruling class because barbarians are usually thought of as chaotic and primitive and only band together out of necessity.

As for a reason a barbarian might have magic disruptive abilities, a good writer could come up with hundreds. I myself am a very bad writer but off the top of my head one explanation is: The collective barbarian races are either ancient before creation, or they originated another dimension, or were created by enemies of the dragons, or any number of reasons that they might reject the dragons power and therefore are less suceptable to magic.

[tb5841]

Another idea I had for a racial skill: Chaotic magic.

When casting a spell, instead of choosing a target, there will be a set chance of hitting any unit. Something like 20%, 30%, 40% and 50% at basic/adv/exp/ultimate. So if I cast implosion with basic chaotic magic, and there are seven enemy stacks, it has a 20% chance of hitting each one - so on average it hits 1.4 stacks, but could conceivably hit all seven, or could hit none. If there were two enemy stacks, it would only hit 0.4 stacks on average. Would be fun with buff spells as well (arcane armour, phantom forces) but it would have to be modified somehow to aso work with area effect spells, and maybe summoning ones.

Unsure as to how well this fits orcs though.

[Jolly Joker]

No, that won't cut it.
You don't want a racial skill that may potentially help the opponent more than you: it would be prefectly possible that your own actions would hurt you more than the opponent and vice versa and you want to have a racial skill that will be positive for you (eben IM is completely under the control of the Warlock).
This is true for both of the last suggestions. I mean, get real, you don't want to play a race that casts Mass Endurance on the opposing units or not at all while the opposing hero hits you with Frenzy or something.

[ThunderTitan]

Even if they had that alone wouldn't cut it because that would be an advantage only in battle against the other towns not in fights against neutrals.

Neutral casters. And i did mention it did something else too.

Not to mention the fact that with the limited action potential of the single hero the idea of a magically inept hero is more than boring.

And that's why you give him more special abilities (via 2rd circle and racial abilities). And he would get lvl1&2 spells anyway.

I find it more boring having all the heroes be mostly casters.


And why can't they be Barbarian Orcs JJ?! Did the PTB find it too confusing?

[tb5841]

As regards my chaotic magic suggestion - I intended this to hit enemy units only with dark/destructive, and your units only with buff spells. So mass spells would be completely unaffected, it only affects single-target spells. So all single-target spells will hit more stacks than they otherwise would, on average, but still only hit the stacks of the right team.

So it would help you much more than your opponent in almost all situations (not quite all, against one-stack armies dark/destructive single-target spells would be significantly weakened).

[Jolly Joker]

Even if they had that alone wouldn't cut it because that would be an advantage only in battle against the other towns not in fights against neutrals.

Neutral casters. And i did mention it did something else too.

Not to mention the fact that with the limited action potential of the single hero the idea of a magically inept hero is more than boring.

And that's why you give him more special abilities (via 2rd circle and racial abilities). And he would get lvl1&2 spells anyway.

I find it more boring having all the heroes be mostly casters.


And why can't they be Barbarian Orcs JJ?! Did the PTB find it too confusing?

Barbarian always referred to a hero type and the Orcs don't strike me like that kind of hero type (my personal impression). Ogres, okay, Trolls, okay, but not Orcs and not Goblins. We'll see only one hero type, though, that's a pretty sure guess, and the heroes will be of the racial type, thatÄs a pretty good guess as well.
Moreover a hero type that couldn't get one third of the available common skills would suck; there's absolutely no need for that. Moreover we already have a very might oriented hero, the Knight, who can cast higher level spells as well. There's no reason to introduce an even more inapt magical hero.

Now I would like you to name one of those special abilities that hero should get instead of magic.

[ThunderTitan]

Now I would like you to name one of those special abilities that hero should get instead of magic.

Bloodlust Cry - All creatures including the Hero would get X% more dmg at the expense of some init the next turn.

Bloodfrenzy - The creatures get enraged, maximizing/improving stats at the cost of HP.

Stunning Blow - The Hero can stun an enemy unit.

Whirlwind Blow - mass Stunblow, 50% chance full stun, 80% some init loss for each enemy creature.


Heck, they could even get these like runespells, but with some extra like MR (like Haven has CS or Dungeon IM).

But isn't it Nival's job to do these, and not some lowly's fan?

There's no reason to introduce an even more inapt magical hero.

Well you could call it Blood Magic (Lineage2) and just make getting normal Magic skills reduced in %. They don't need to be wholly magic inept.

And even if they're called Shamans, they'd still be closest to the former Barb factions.

[Jolly Joker]

Ah, so your racial is akin to Rune Magic, but the hero can't learn normal high level magic. Wonderful. Very interesting.