SpectralDragon / GDSpectra has added that to the Bug Tracker.toreadorlelder wrote:Problem in the Breach. Had a 5 char party; found 3 of the 4 (at places noted earlier in the thread) but can't find #5. Telelocator suggest "Old Loeb's Cave"...but I've checked the entire map, as much as I can...the reflecting thing is a royal PITA. Haven't figured out how to get into the fortress in the middle, or any of the towers in the SW corner.
Eating, sleeping... It'd become a lich IRL myself.
Well, everywhere is mentioned that Liches look either like desiccated corpses at least (look at D&D's baelorns or better, Dark Messiah's Liches that are basically more "corpse" than "skeleton" as if Ubi decided to make it more prominent to the original meaning of the word "lich" itself, which basically means "corpse" in old English and even in other languages like Croatian/Serbian - pronounced as "leš/lesh" - and German - pronounced as "Leiche") or skeletons at most, depending on their overall age and how they care for their physical remains. MM decided to go "skeleton" route, but I can imagine that zombie bodies are just as viable, even if it takes a shorter time for them to decompose ... ha ha ha ha ha!Crusader_bin wrote:Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us
Archibald mentions in MM7 that if not for Kastore's interference, he and his scientifically-oriented necromancers would have soon discovered "a way to keep the body from decaying after the Ritual of Endless Night". That would be quite an amazing milestone, being able to live eternally with no drawbacks or being called a monster etc. But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic. Liches on the other hand keep all of their mental faculties from when they were alive, which is the result of the ritual. The only way to suspend one's disbelief and have a zombie-like lich would be if the ritual somehow failed to have the body decay completely. But going from a mindless, decaying zombie to a lich? Not much intelligence left there to salvageCrusader_bin wrote:Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us
No need to go as far as Croatian. The closest languages to English (apart from the little-spoken Frisian) are definitely the Scandinavian languages, and there "lik" is the word for corpse. That's an even closer sounding cognate than the german "Leiche".SpectralDragon wrote: Well, everywhere is mentioned that Liches look either like desiccated corpses at least (look at D&D's baelorns or better, Dark Messiah's Liches that are basically more "corpse" than "skeleton" as if Ubi decided to make it more prominent to the original meaning of the word "lich" itself, which basically means "corpse" in old English and even in other languages like Croatian/Serbian - pronounced as "leš/lesh" - and German - pronounced as "Leiche") or skeletons at most, depending on their overall age and how they care for their physical remains. MM decided to go "skeleton" route, but I can imagine that zombie bodies are just as viable, even if it takes a shorter time for them to decompose ... ha ha ha ha ha!
Well, we actually have one case of a failed Ritual of the Endless Night and that's Lich King Gryphonheart, so could be possible. Question how often would that happen though (the incomplete-decay one). Hmmmm ...Xfing wrote:Archibald mentions in MM7 that if not for Kastore's interference, he and his scientifically-oriented necromancers would have soon discovered "a way to keep the body from decaying after the Ritual of Endless Night". That would be quite an amazing milestone, being able to live eternally with no drawbacks or being called a monster etc. But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic. Liches on the other hand keep all of their mental faculties from when they were alive, which is the result of the ritual. The only way to suspend one's disbelief and have a zombie-like lich would be if the ritual somehow failed to have the body decay completely. But going from a mindless, decaying zombie to a lich? Not much intelligence left there to salvage
No need to go as far as Croatian. The closest languages to English (apart from the little-spoken Frisian) are definitely the Scandinavian languages, and there "lik" is the word for corpse. That's an even closer sounding cognate than the german "Leiche".
Anyway, what it all boils down to is that liches are not lesser undead like zombies, skeletons or wights. Nor are they "undead minions". They are greater undead, fully sentient, and they have agendas of their own, full agency and high intelligence. Not to mention minions of their own
Even if that would cause quite a jarring effect when it comes to paperdoll armors on them and whatnot.There's no "zombification" spell in MM games. The spells that zombify living characters would just reanimate undead.SpectralDragon wrote:Which reminds me, since Dragons become Ghost Dragons if you zombify them in-game due to Zombie Dragons not being a thing in MM lore, what happens if you try to zombify a Lich or a Vampire? My answer: Ghost Liches and Ghost Vampires!
They only need some pieces of body in a lich jar, the rest can be kept intact. So yes, a lich with zombie-like body might be possible.Crusader_bin wrote:I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to.
No, at most they're skeleton heads, demiliches. They have gems inserted into them instead of keeping a jar with pluck.SpectralDragon wrote:or skeletons at most
That quote from some NWC employee shows they do have mind of their own, they are sentient, but not much.Xfing wrote:But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic.
I don't think Gryphonheart's ritual failed. I would argue it was actually too successfulSpectralDragon wrote: Well, we actually have one case of a failed Ritual of the Endless Night and that's Lich King Gryphonheart, so could be possible. Question how often would that happen though (the incomplete-decay one). Hmmmm ...
Well the truth is, it doesn't matter what you do for the Unlocker, as suspension of disbelief automatically goes out the window once it's used in the first place. It's meant to allow any combination, even those that would never realistically happen (such as the troll zombie lich for example, because why not"lik". I love Scandinavian. xD
Why do you think I'm arguing with Templayer whenever or not zombified Liches would come as Ghosts instead of Bare Skeletons?
). I'm talking here in terms of the base game though. Mino liches could realistically happen, because it's conceivable that a Minotaur spellcaster could be seduced to necromancy and dark magic. But zombie liches - not really. A zombie lich is like a janitor CEO - can't be something lowly and great at the same time. I meant "zombifying" as in healing them in Evil-aligned temples there, sorry for the misunderstanding. ^^;GrayFace wrote:There's no "zombification" spell in MM games. The spells that zombify living characters would just reanimate undead (at least the dark temples surely would).
Speaking of breaking the lore, zombies in MM7 break it in a huge way. Imagine if zombies could be just brought back to life like they are in good temples in MM7!
They only need some pieces of body in a lich jar, the rest can be kept intact. So yes, a lich with zombie-like body might be possible.
No, at most they're skeleton heads, demiliches. They have gems inserted into them instead of keeping a jar with pluck.
Point taken. I'm arguing stuff for both Unlocker and base game though, so yeah. ^^;Xfing wrote:I don't think Gryphonheart's ritual failed. I would argue it was actually too successful
Well the truth is, it doesn't matter what you do for the Unlocker, as suspension of disbelief automatically goes out the window once it's used in the first place. It's meant to allow any combination, even those that would never realistically happen (such as the troll zombie lich for example, because why not
Entrepreneurs doing janitor work at their small businesses do exist.Xfing wrote:A zombie lich is like a janitor CEO - can't be something lowly and great at the same time.
No, it's not about what you meant, there's just nothing that could possibly "zombify" an undead in the games. Dracolich or lich would just get reanimated, good as new.SpectralDragon wrote:I meant "zombifying" as in healing them in Evil-aligned temples there, sorry for the misunderstanding. ^^;
Even in the Enroth era, the MM and HoMM games were made by separate teams with rather restricted communication between them. Lore inconsistencies were inevitable. But they did keep some things consistent at least, such as the portrayal of the lichSpectralDragon wrote:[
LOL! Even more evidence that nothing is what it seems when comparing Heroes games and MM games much? That aside, I love this because this opens a whole new slew of possibilities, even if they shatter themselves, he he he!
I think the early, DOS-era games had what could be called "demiliches", as in liches depicted as large floating skulls with no bodies.I was looking at MM lore for that one, as we don't know about any demiliches in there. In D&D lore, I managed to go as far as going even past demilich and right into Akalich territory, which is basically like a shade of a Lich with only soul gems remaining ... and they're almost omnipresently powerful as a result of that. Creepy stuff! O.O
It's great you're on a roll and eager to do more stuff. In this case, might I suggest you try repainting one of the armors or cloaks or equipment overall? I think that's stuff that everyone wants to see, regardless of whether or not they want to play with the unlocker. Hell, I'd do it myself if I was any good at it, so anxious am I to see this stuff in the game already >_>Point taken. I'm arguing stuff for both Unlocker and base game though, so yeah. ^^;
Sure. But you never see a CEO promoted directly from a janitorGrayFace wrote: Entrepreneurs doing janitor work at their small businesses do exist.
You still haven't checked the audio voice files for Zombies in MM games, did you? Zombies are not that stupid. They are smarter than trolls. I hate repeating myself.Xfing wrote: Archibald mentions in MM7 that if not for Kastore's interference, he and his scientifically-oriented necromancers would have soon discovered "a way to keep the body from decaying after the Ritual of Endless Night". That would be quite an amazing milestone, being able to live eternally with no drawbacks or being called a monster etc. But that's the main difference here: lesser undead are raised with minimal magic and really have no mind of their own - they are just kept moving by magic. Liches on the other hand keep all of their mental faculties from when they were alive, which is the result of the ritual. The only way to suspend one's disbelief and have a zombie-like lich would be if the ritual somehow failed to have the body decay completely. But going from a mindless, decaying zombie to a lich? Not much intelligence left there to salvage
Also there is an actual Zombie Death Knight hero that is canon.SpectralDragon wrote:Well, everywhere is mentioned that Liches look either like desiccated corpses at least (look at D&D's baelorns or better, Dark Messiah's Liches that are basically more "corpse" than "skeleton" as if Ubi decided to make it more prominent to the original meaning of the word "lich" itself, which basically means "corpse" in old English and even in other languages like Croatian/Serbian - pronounced as "leš/lesh" - and German - pronounced as "Leiche") or skeletons at most, depending on their overall age and how they care for their physical remains. MM decided to go "skeleton" route, but I can imagine that zombie bodies are just as viable, even if it takes a shorter time for them to decompose ... ha ha ha ha ha!Crusader_bin wrote:Dunno, liches are skeletons, but that is merely a vessel for movement, mind is what matters. I don't think zombie body would be impossible for them, maybe they could even switch the vessels if they wanted to. Not really converted though.
I also always wondered if they could control a live body, but I just thought they would not bother to keep it alive, as we all know how time consuming it is for us
Got it. Thanks for making this much easier on me, I really mean it.GrayFace wrote:No, it's not about what you meant, there's just nothing that could possibly "zombify" an undead in the games. Dracolich or lich would just get reanimated, good as new.
Shame those games don't take place in Enroth though, since well, demiliches as playable characters ... how awesome would that be?!Xfing wrote:I think the early, DOS-era games had what could be called "demiliches", as in liches depicted as large floating skulls with no bodies.
It's great you're on a roll and eager to do more stuff. In this case, might I suggest you try repainting one of the armors or cloaks or equipment overall? I think that's stuff that everyone wants to see, regardless of whether or not they want to play with the unlocker. Hell, I'd do it myself if I was any good at it, so anxious am I to see this stuff in the game already >_>
Speaking of helping - I've noticed that Rodril hasn't gotten around to changing redundant item flavor text and some of the names yet. Where is this data stored? Can this be accessed via MMArchive? I would be happy to make those changes myself.
Never say never. What if it is a cleaning company?Xfing wrote:Sure. But you never see a CEO promoted directly from a janitorGrayFace wrote: Entrepreneurs doing janitor work at their small businesses do exist.
justl wanted that link and I referred him to you, quoting you an all - did you send him that link? could you add that link into an article on how to do the repaints on the tutorial tracker?SpectralDragon wrote: Trouble is I'll first need to bust open actual MM6 and MM7 games for missing equipment assets and then have appropriate paperdolls for MM8 equipment, so that I could warp transform the missing assets to them via GIMP. Sure, it might be easy for coders and whatnot, but not as easy for a total noob like myself, even with assistance of GrayFace's little video of transforming MM6 paperdolls into MM8 ones using Warp Transform. If you wish, I can link you these, GrayFace made a playlist of them.
That's the thing: it's not repainting stuff, it's adjusting stuff to fit to MM8 paperdolls. Repainting already existing stuff into something new and readjusting already existing stuff into new forms are 2 completely different things. :/Templayer wrote:I just wanted that link and I referred him to you, quoting you an all - did you send him that link? could you add that link into an article on how to do the repaints on the tutorial tracker?
I suspect that might have something to do with the fact that they're basically just lich voices pitch shifted down, which was probably done due to time constraints by the devs? Seriously, you need to look at out-of-universe factors too. I can't believe you're suggesting that the recycled voice matters more than the 99% reduced intellect and personality effect, not to mention the halved accuracy and speed. Zombies were clearly meant by the devs to be as stupid and expressionless as physically possible.Templayer wrote: You still haven't checked the audio voice files for Zombies in MM games, did you? Zombies are not that stupid. They are smarter than trolls. I hate repeating myself.
Xfire wrote:*poke*
You wish to try your hand on adjusting equipment? Check this playlist of GrayFace's that shows how to adjust MM6 paperdolls to MM8 ones (same concept applies to armors and apparel. All we need are missing headgear textures and like 5-7 different MM8 paperdolls to fit them into aka Human Male, Human Female, Minotaur, Troll/s, Dwarf Male and Dwarf Female). Your help will be VERY appreciated.justl wrote:*pokepoke*
The companions are in the following locations:toreadorlelder wrote:Problem in the Breach. Had a 5 char party; found 3 of the 4 (at places noted earlier in the thread) but can't find #5. Telelocator suggest "Old Loeb's Cave"...but I've checked the entire map, as much as I can...the reflecting thing is a royal PITA. Haven't figured out how to get into the fortress in the middle, or any of the towers in the SW corner.
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