Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v4.0 open beta

[Lone_Wolf]

Magic Embers are kind of the rare campfires prize

They are easier to get then you may think .

Spoiler

with perception 12 you can get embers from campfires .
Psychic npc gives +5 , scout gives 6 .
If you have both as temp followers you only perception 1.

Besides, if money is the issue high perception improves the loot/money you get..
Just wait with doing campfires in avlee/TF until your perception is high enough.

Spoiler

[Tomsod]

Master Plate & GM Chain can mitigate some of the damage, but leather users can't as far as I know .
Or are those attacks considered spells that have a chance to be absorbed at leather master ?

Anything that has an SP cost (for the player) can be absorbed, restoring those SP instead. (Light Bolt is the only exception, because of its "irresistible" flavor. I also think there's a bug allowing gog etc. death explosions to be absorbed for 0 SP, but if so I'll fix it later.) Still, at typical skill values leather protects against physical attacks the least, although its unique bonus grows with skill investment, unlike heavier armor.

In practice though, single-target physical spells don't hurt all that much.

A good point and a good compromise, though I still say "don't make Permanence the GM perk in the first place" - by the time you can cast Grandmaster Spectral Weapon at will you're largely past the point where physical immunity is relevant (if you're playing Team Light it's still useful but only situationally so) and so you can't enchant over Spectral once you need something "better" when you do only need it for a few hours.

I want it to be same as other weapon-enchanting spells. If nothing else, it remains a cheap way to double the price of sold weapons.

I think what I'll do is downgrade Fire Aura, Wizard Eye, Spectral Weapon and Vampiric Weapon (am I forgetting anything?) scrolls to Master when sold in GM guilds, to prevent overly easy access to their permanent effects.

To add on the perception topic, it's worth upgrading to Expert even in early game, since then the hireling bonus is also doubled and they turn out to be about as strong as factors/bankers (more gold from corpses, but no increase to gold piles in chests etc.), at lower upfront cost. A bunch of other interactive map features are also influenced by perception (e.g. ore veins), and I plan to eventually add even more of those.

[raekuul]

Spectral Wepaon is really the only one where the GM guild is accessible at level 1 (well, level 4 because emerald island experience, but level 1); you have to do some fighting to get through to Nighon to get to the Paramount Fire guild, and the other two require advancing the plot by a few quests. Other than that, I'm actually okay with limiting some scrolls to master even at the paramount guilds.

So once I cool off I am going to go back to PACS since that does work well with my playstyle, but with the addendum that I'll be shutting off Monster EXP via an MMExt script (as opposed to playing on a higher difficulty), to see just how viable low level clears are. Which this will be my first time shutting off Monster EXP for 7, so this is going to be fun

[Lone_Wolf]

I think what I'll do is downgrade Fire Aura, Wizard Eye, Spectral Weapon and Vampiric Weapon (am I forgetting anything?) scrolls to Master when sold in GM guilds, to prevent overly easy access to their permanent effects.

Not weapon related, but maybe limit charm scrolls to master ?

Using ID monster on all attackers in range helped against trolls, although the trees make that hard .
Mountain Trolls stay very tough though.

Trolls use rock blast M 3-6-9 , regeneration is N3 - E6 - M9 .
Maybe change rock to M 3-5-7 and regeneration to E3 - E6 -E9 ?

[Tomsod]

So once I cool off I am going to go back to PACS since that does work well with my playstyle, but with the addendum that I'll be shutting off Monster EXP via an MMExt script (as opposed to playing on a higher difficulty), to see just how viable low level clears are. Which this will be my first time shutting off Monster EXP for 7, so this is going to be fun

As in, no XP from monsters at all? You would probably still get a decent level from quest XP, it's roughly evenly split in a normal playthrough. Increased XP from kills is coincidentally the only "positive" change on higher difficulties, so yeah, you now have no reason not to play on easy!

Not weapon related, but maybe limit charm scrolls to master ?

Right, good catch, that and Control Undead. They're not truly permanent BTW, expiring after one year, but I think it still counts.

Trolls use rock blast M 3-6-9 , regeneration is N3 - E6 - M9 .
Maybe change rock to M 3-5-7 and regeneration to E3 - E6 -E9 ?

Something like that, yes. Although regeneration N/E/M rank doesn't do anything for monsters; I don't remember why I wrote it like this.

[raekuul]

As in, no XP from monsters at all?

Yep! I did this before for MM6 - it turns out that without monster EXP but with doing every quest you still end up at level 62. I think I theorized level 50 for MM7 before but with Elemental locking promotion quests behind apprentice tokens it's a bit more tightly integrated with the main quest now (which does help in that Elemental has a more curve-shaped curve than vanilla, but the main quests were originally balanced assuming that all the promotion quests were completable once you finished the arbiter choice - see that harsh level jump between the Wine Cellar and the Tunnels to Eofol? I'm about to get my nose broken by that.)

anyway here's the lua code if you want to duplicate.

Code: Select all

function events.GameInitialized2()	
	for monsterID in Game.MonstersTxt do
		Game.MonstersTxt[monsterID]["Experience"] = 0
		Game.MonstersTxt[monsterID]["Exp"] = 0
	end
end

MM7's main problem is just that instead of side quests plural it just has a bunch of promotion quests for other classes. Which sounds good on paper but each Path has That One Promotion Quest that's best done in the early game (Champion for light, Bounty Hunter for dark), and makes Erathia feel hella empty since it means basically all your lategame quests (save two - the stautettes and Haldir's Remains, which are really the same quest) are tied to your path choice. So while I'm thinking about it, thank you for adding more sidequests. (Now if only a bunch of them weren't locked behind skill ranks...)

Anyway all of this is why I want the gold nerf to be a separate option from the monster ability changes. I want to play with higher monster difficulty in spite of the EXP disable, but not with the reduced gold gain, since the changes to gold economy impact low level play far more than high level play.

[Tomsod]

I think I theorized level 50 for MM7 before but with Elemental locking promotion quests behind apprentice tokens it's a bit more tightly integrated with the main quest now (which does help in that Elemental has a more curve-shaped curve than vanilla, but the main quests were originally balanced assuming that all the promotion quests were completable once you finished the arbiter choice - see that harsh level jump between the Wine Cellar and the Tunnels to Eofol? I'm about to get my nose broken by that.)

If you aim to complete as much quests as possible, you should get your 8th and 9th apprentice tokens just before being given the quest to kill devil leader, actually. So at least you won't have to fight behemoths (too) under-leveled.

Oh, and keep in mind that Learning affects quest rep in the mod (and so do hireling etc. bonuses to it).

[Lone_Wolf]

Learning affects quest rep in the mod (and so do hireling etc. bonuses to it).

Great change , just make sure to stay at same level of learning skill / hire teacher/instructor/scholar during your first promotion quest for the party members.
In case you do increase skill / change learning hirelings while promoting party members some members will benefit less from it.
(I changed after my ranger/hunter was promted and she's lagging behind the others with equal leanring skill) .

Unrelated question :
I now have air GM and wizard eye is permanent . Will it be disabled by dispel magic casts ?

[raekuul]

It was not dispelled in my experience.

Apprentice Tokens

I think I know most of the actions that give me apprentice tokens by this point (Proving Grounds, Vanilla Sidequest, Altar Quest, Lich Jars Quest, Third Advisor's Quest) but that's only seven. Where are the other two? Wait the other two are the Cube quest and installing the Arbiter, aren't they? Blah, that means I will need to spin cycles properly after Proving Grounds and Vanilla Sidequest.

On that note - that's only seven out of nine if I don't cross-promote like normal, where are the other two? I'm assuming there's one for reporting allegiance after rejecting the other leader's offer?

Also - Quest Rep? Not just Quest Exp? Because if it's also rep then Learning has a synergy with Merchant. (N.B.: I did confirm part of this, Learning does affect Quest EXP awards, which means that my PACS team is kind of up a creek without a paddle as none of them are humans)

Potential additional Cavalier dialog

"Don't confuse stupidity for courage, and don't confuse preparation for cowardace. Scout the place out before you attack it, find out what works and what doesn't. You may need to visit a temple or a Spirit guild."

Practical Experience, Again

I'll have better/more accurate feedback after their dialog gets revised, but the GM trainers for miscellaneous skills that ask for "practical experience" might need to be reduced a bit in their requirements? Particularly for Repair and Disarm Trap.

For Disarm Trap, the problem is that MM7's level curve is such that you are disincentivized from disarming chests early on because the skill requirement jumps up a lot faster than the player's skill can grow, so players get out of the habit of disarming traps successfully.

Repair especially is hurt by this, between Harden Item removing the need to repair items to begin with plus Repairing consuming the active player's turn plus the most reliable way to break items after a while is to drown to death.

It's not as big of an issue as I'm making it sound for either skill, since you can mitigate the skill requirement problem with NPC hiring, but there's no combination of two NPCs that increase repair for all item types so if only successful repairs count, that's a lot of NPC shuffling.

Which that brings me to my actual question: for Identify Monster and Disarm Trap, do only successful uses count? What's the threshold for "success" for Identify Monster? Does it count if the thief disarming the trap used a scroll of Telekinesis to access the chest?

PACS Team #2 Progress Report - 79,000 EXP

Died once (Intentional deaths: AvLee Golem Part)
Castle Cleanup
Scavenger Hunt
Missing Contestants
Davrik's Ring
Parson's Quill
Faerie Pipes
Heirloom Amulet
Map to Evenmorn (+15,000 EXP to Preservation? the Priest)
Markham's Vase
Met the Faerie King

[Tomsod]

I meant quest XP, not reputation, sorry.

GM wizard eye is not dispellable.

Starting from advisor assassination, you're awarded two tokens per quest. There's no token for the judge, although maybe there should be.

Disarm skill can keep up in my experience, if you get it to expert and find some booster (item or hireling). Repair tends to accumulate uses from the items found already broken, and you only need a total of 40 repairs for GM.

Yes, you need success, which for ID monster is any amount of new information on monster. You can even get multiple uses from the same monster by identifying it gradually. For disarm, triggering a trap is a failure even if it doesn't damage you - if only because it might break items inside (except on easy).

Is Preservation the priest's name?

[Lone_Wolf]

And another change: items that increase HP, SP, Thievery and Disarm skills are
now halved in effect, like the vanilla Armsmaster etc. bonuses. However, at
least the Disarm bonus is now multiplied by rank, which compensates for it.

Disarming is now easier then in vanilla .
On easy Disarm expert 4 with a +6 disarm item will open outdoors chests everywhere except nighon, celeste , the pit, LoG.
Indoors the chests in the haunted mansion are also fine.


Race-specfiic items

Sofar I have found one race specific item, the elven chainmail
It is in a location that in vanilla is only accessible during a dark path promotion quest.
Will a party that doesn't do that certain quest find it elsewhere ?

[Tomsod]

Disarm bonuses are now multiplied by skill rank, but the random +disarm items are halved in value, so it's stronger at expert but weaker at normal rank.

Elven and human racial items are normally awarded for the trumpet quest, but this way you can get both at once.

[raekuul]

The Priests' name is "Preservation?" - the question mark is part of the name.

40 repairs is a good amount, considering pre-broken items (though this creates an interesting strategy choice - do I deliberately trigger the trap to try for broken items to repair, or do I just disarm the trap to progress towards traps? This certainly makes me less likely to use Thieves together with Knights/Paladins since progressing one slows down the other) but it still burns the repairer's turn, which slows things down unnecessarily when the party is in the Green range (I'm fine with it burning the turn when you're in combat, because combat, but it's silly when you're in a cleared Castle Harmondale or your allied castle. Come to think of it, I think I'd be fine with it if it kicked you out of the inventory screen like it does when you use a scroll/potion, since then it's actually reminding me that it's burning the turn).

Re Disarm: E4 with +6 in bonuses is 20 total disarm. I need to sit down and go through the docs again (not your docs, "The" Docs) to see how map chest lock level correlates to total disarm skill. (And I swear one of these days I'll remember that training multipliers include bonuses)

Re Apprentice Tokens: Wait so does that mean I end up with more than nine total tokens if I cross-promote, or are the extras only awarded if I rejected the opposing faction's offer outright? (And how would that interact with the Sidequest token, since that doesn't require completing the training grounds first?) Having more than nine tokens is wasteful given you can't complete both paths for the same class (which is annoying since it means Ranger Lord has one extra quest to get experience from on top of the benefit of quelling the trees. Maybe allow quelling the trees regardless of which branch you're on? But I don't know how much extra work would go into that) and as far as I'm aware they can't be sold to anybody.

Re ID Monster: so if I identify a monster for the first time and see its resistances, is that one success or four?

OH! something I forgot to mention - thrown knives don't animate without MMExt, which was why I was confused about throwing knife range before.

[Lone_Wolf]

I'm having big trouble with an evil eye .
It took 3 bows, a flail and 2 daggers from my party .
Only my assassin seems to be resistant to it, is there a defence to telekinesis by monsters ?

Will I get the items back after killing the evil eye or do I have to visit the black market for them ?

[raekuul]

Re Auto alchemy: I tried using auto alchemy on a recipe that I did not have enough potions/reagents for and got zero feedback (tried doing it from the Potion Recipes section of the notebook, so it's possible that I misunderstood what "or its Recipe" meant.), but that might have been my LXqt hijacking the input (I'm very badly misconfigured under the hood so a lot of weird things involving modifier keys get hijacked). I'll test again after an OS switch but my understanding is that I'm supposed to get some sort of feedback saying why the auto alchemy failed. I did not attempt auto alchemy on something that should work.

[Tomsod]

40 repairs is a good amount, considering pre-broken items (though this creates an interesting strategy choice - do I deliberately trigger the trap to try for broken items to repair, or do I just disarm the trap to progress towards traps? This certainly makes me less likely to use Thieves together with Knights/Paladins since progressing one slows down the other)

I for one accumulated enough uses of repair on my paladin without having to break items on purpose. It helps that low-level items are both more likely to generate broken, and easier to repair.

but it still burns the repairer's turn, which slows things down unnecessarily when the party is in the Green range (I'm fine with it burning the turn when you're in combat, because combat, but it's silly when you're in a cleared Castle Harmondale or your allied castle. Come to think of it, I think I'd be fine with it if it kicked you out of the inventory screen like it does when you use a scroll/potion, since then it's actually reminding me that it's burning the turn).

It does kick you out in turn-based mode. I'm generally against giving "recovery discounts", but as long as no monsters are nearby, the quick repair hotkey will (attempt to) repair all worn and carried items at once, with stacked recovery like when auto-casting spells.

Re Disarm: E4 with +6 in bonuses is 20 total disarm. I need to sit down and go through the docs again (not your docs, "The" Docs) to see how map chest lock level correlates to total disarm skill. (And I swear one of these days I'll remember that training multipliers include bonuses)

In 7-8 it's simple, map lock level doubled must be less than or equal to total disarm skill. I also added a 50% failure chance when it's exactly equal, so that raising disarm from e.g. 6 to 7 would be meaningful.

Re Apprentice Tokens: Wait so does that mean I end up with more than nine total tokens if I cross-promote, or are the extras only awarded if I rejected the opposing faction's offer outright? (And how would that interact with the Sidequest token, since that doesn't require completing the training grounds first?) Having more than nine tokens is wasteful given you can't complete both paths for the same class (which is annoying since it means Ranger Lord has one extra quest to get experience from on top of the benefit of quelling the trees. Maybe allow quelling the trees regardless of which branch you're on? But I don't know how much extra work would go into that) and as far as I'm aware they can't be sold to anybody.

They were supposed to be sellable, but then the player could accidentally sell too much and lock themselves out of promotion quests; ideally that's where the black market comes in, but currently my code cannot track multiple instances of the same item type, so the whole idea remains unimplemented.

The extra XP for ranger lords is just 5000 per PC, and personally I wipe out all the trees in the early game (gems!) so it seems a minor issue to me. But I suppose allowing the oldest tree to initiate the quest unconditionally wouldn't be very hard, if I were to go that way.

Re ID Monster: so if I identify a monster for the first time and see its resistances, is that one success or four?

That's just one, and never any more.

OH! something I forgot to mention - thrown knives don't animate without MMExt, which was why I was confused about throwing knife range before.

Weird, I just re-checked and it works for me (without MMExt).

I'm having big trouble with an evil eye .
It took 3 bows, a flail and 2 daggers from my party .
Only my assassin seems to be resistant to it, is there a defence to telekinesis by monsters ?

Will I get the items back after killing the evil eye or do I have to visit the black market for them ?

Same as with thieves: the first two stolen items are carried by the monster, the extras go directly to the black market. Also like thieves, there's no immunity but you may resist based on agility and luck.

Re Auto alchemy: I tried using auto alchemy on a recipe that I did not have enough potions/reagents for and got zero feedback (tried doing it from the Potion Recipes section of the notebook, so it's possible that I misunderstood what "or its Recipe" meant.)

Yes, I now see the ambiguity. I meant the recipe scrolls sold in alchemy shops.

[Lone_Wolf]

I'm having big trouble with an evil eye .
It took 3 bows, a flail and 2 daggers from my party .
Only my assassin seems to be resistant to it, is there a defence to telekinesis by monsters ?

Will I get the items back after killing the evil eye or do I have to visit the black market for them ?

Same as with thieves: the first two stolen items are carried by the monster, the extras go directly to the black market. Also like thieves, there's no immunity but you may resist based on agility and luck.

That clarifies things. I went a few saves back and noticed I had lost weapons to floaters before encountering the evil eye.
I will have to check after killing eyes if i'm missing anything .

One note about GM disarm requirement :

Spoiler

Dusarm GM master wanted a stolen item worth atleast 3000 gold (proof and payment) . None of the 4 shops in Tatalia had such for sale, had to visit erathia shops to find one.

Would buying a stolen item worth 3000+ from black market also have been sufficient ?

[raekuul]

quick repair hotkey ... auto-casting spells

I really need to sit down and reread the whole changelog (a "features" document might be needed at this point, but I can probably sit down and do that while I'm rereading the changelog), that's two features at once that I completely overlooked.

In 7-8 it's simple, map lock level doubled must be less than or equal to total disarm skill. I also added a 50% failure chance when it's exactly equal, so that raising disarm from e.g. 6 to 7 would be meaningful.

Thank you much, that's one less doc dive I need to do

Re ID Monster: so if I identify a monster for the first time and see its resistances, is that one success or four?

That's just one, and never any more.

Okay so now I need a lot more information.

• Monster Level is used in the vanilla Monster ID difficulty check (I forget how it's offset but once you get far enough in it's basically just Skill vs Monster Level), how is it used in the difficulty check in Elemental?
• What are the thresholds for getting more data from a monster?
• Why am I not backcredited for overshooting rank before meeting a monster for the first time (which is very likely to happen in the midgame now that training multipliers apply to bonuses)?
• Do peasants count at all?

Re Disarm: This goes back to Vanilla MM7 being poorly-balanced in the early game (the only thing that makes sense to me at this point is that the original devs expected the player to blitz the main quest, then go back and do promotion quests during the time between restoring the Dwarves and Judge Grey's passing, since without promotion or side quests the first trapped chest you are required to open is in the Walls of Mist on light path and the altar pieces on dark path. Amusingly, none of the Thief promotion quests require opening chests). If we consider the dwarven barrows (aside from Zokarr's Tomb) to all be the same map, then except for the Lantern of Light you need the equivalent of M Disarm to safely open anything quest-related (this is where bonuses being included in the training multiplier are a major help in Elemental, since now you can actually open most of those chests with just E Disarm and the appropriate NPC).

What I really should do is a list of quests sorted by experience reward, to get a clearer picture of what the devs were aiming for; to my memory not all promotion quests have the same base EXP reward but they all still have the same bonus for their classes.