HoMM III: Best level 2 creature

[Metathron]

[Gaidal Cain]

Isn't this sort of pointless with the Storm Elementals included?

(I fixed the mistake in the title, BTW)

[Metathron]

If it is pointless, then in some later polls, I think it will be pointless to even include conflux because some of their units are total stinkers. But that's the conflux for ya - moderation is forbidden from entering it.

The storm elementals may have great stats but that is at least somewhat offset by their lower growth and costliness, so you won't always be able to afford them.

Also, I think it's good to remember that the amount of damage ranged units do may be a bit misleading because they often won't be able to realize the full extent of their firepower, i.e. the range and melee penalties, so there's another downside to the storm elementals...and other shooters.

My top picks would be the harpy and the wolf raiders, cannot decide which ones to vote for yet, followed by the storm elementals.

(Thanks, now please fix the mistake in the poll title as well )

[dallasmavs41]

I think I have to go with the Wolf Raiders. They're pretty fragile, and the AI really targets them, but I love the double strike and higher damage, especially when backed by an offensive-minded Barbarian.


You can just about get 2 Wolf Raiders for the same price as 1 Storm Elemental, so that's a factor, too.

[Jolly Joker]

Okay, some tables from the good old times. This tables clearly show how stupid the Storm Elemental is, and there is no way you CANNOT vote Storm Elemental best level 2. On the other hand, if you put Storm Elementals away, things look pretty interesting in the level 2 area. Effectively, Conflux has 2 very good level 3 and 2 pretty weak level 4 units - so it makes sense to include Storms and Water Elementals in the level 3 department (and note that Storms are marginally better than Water Elementals) and Energy and Magma Elementals into the level 4 department (this is a serious suggestion, by the way).

1) Single creature power rating a la JJ

1.(Storm Elemental) 12.96
2. Harpy Hag 6.88
3. Obsidian Gargoyle 6.22
4. Wolf Raider 6.20
5. Lizard Warrior 6.08
6. Magog 6.03
7. Marksmen 5.77
8. Battle Dwarf 5.71
9. Zombie 4.43

This is extremely tight if you leave out Storm Elemental. Harpy Hag wins by a comfortable margin, but the rest is pretty close except, of course, Zombies.

2) This is the weekly production list (and of course things change):

1. (Storm Elementals) 155.52
2. Obsidian Gargoyles 136.84
3. Battle Dwarves 114.20
4. Wolf Raiders 111.60
5. Harpy Hags 110.08
6. Lizard Warriors 109.44
7. Marksmen 103.86
8. Magogs 96.48
9. Zombies 70.88

It's interesting to compare these numbers with the level 1 table.

3) Anyway, here's cost effectivity - again new table.

1. (Storm Elementals) 4.71
2. Wolf Raider 4.43
3. Lizard Warrior 4.34
4. Harpy Hag 4.05
5. Obsidian Gargoyle 3.89
6. Marksman 3.85
7. Battle Dwarf 3.81
8. Zombie 3.54
9. Magog 3.45

Where does that lead us?

I actually am a fan of the Wolf Raider - but it's too difficult to grade them up: you have to grade up Goblins first and you need those wood and ore dearly. So Raiders come into play LATE - and LATE they are pretty fragile.
The Gargoyles are sturdy and fast, but in effect they are fast Zombies - just not fast enough to make a difference.
Battle Dwarves? Too non-descript as well.
That leaves the Hags for me. I admit, I love them. I especially love their nuisance factor.

[Meandor]

Storm Elementals with bless are killers.

[darknessfood]

Harpy haggs are good. Far range and no rataliation. Storm elementals are gay...

[Meandor]

By the way, JJ could you provide formulas for your tables? Through pm or something if this is a too much of oftopic.

[asandir]

stormy for me, there's no argument that can be made against him, the magic heroes conflux gets just makes it all the worse for the opposition

[Banedon]

Okay, some tables from the good old times. This tables clearly show how stupid the Storm Elemental is, and there is no way you CANNOT vote Storm Elemental best level 2.

Fully agreed, any self-respecting Heroes III player has to pick Storm Elementals as the best level 2 creatures. Their stats are simply far, far better than everyone else's. I think this poll should be redone, but without the Storm Elementals.

[Pol]

I'm going with Harpy Hags, they are nice harassers. Speedy and useful unit although not dealing much damage in one strike, or bite or whatever they are doing.

The most powerful are stormy, fortunately they have one weakness. Lightning, is what these boys cannot handle, even if it's driven by some obscure logic.

But I do not accept them like an ordinary lvl 2 unit choice, so I passed over.


PS The additional control for Harpy Hags in the WoG isn't bad either.

[Omega_Destroyer]

I have always hated that! Why the Hell are storm elementals vulnerable to lightning?!

[Pol]

I have always hated that! Why the Hell are storm elementals vulnerable to lightning?!

Maybe they were grown up in mild climate.

[asandir]

so?

however they do need one weakness do they not?

[Kristo]

Wolf Raiders are the most dangerous, provided you're not careless with them. A close second are Lizard Warriors.

Storm Elementals don't count as level two. The only reason they're level two is that somebody had to be and they have the least hit points of the "classic" Elementals.

[asandir]

just cause we don't agree that they should be level 2 doesn't in anyway detract from the fact that they are level 2, poor decision or not ....

[Muszka]

I go for Storm Elementals, altough my favorites are Harpies. With good control they could drive mad the AI, if that would be possible.
In my eye the SElementars true weakness isn't the ilogical lightning, but the fact that they can't be resurrected, and if we calculate their low grow, every loss is 'painful'.

P.S.: JJ I'm curious too about that method you make those statistics. Is there any way to see those formulas?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

just cause we don't agree that they should be level 2 doesn't in anyway detract from the fact that they are level 2, poor decision or not ....

You talk as if Heroes 3 players OBLIGATORY had the Conflux as an available faction.

How many times do I have to repeat it? It's an OPTIONAL FACTION.
That makes the Storm Elemental an OPTIONAL UNIT.

Some people (like me) play the normal, "vanilla" Shadow of Death, where a "level 2" unit called Storm Elemental doesn't even exist (unless you find a map dwelling AND a hill fort).

Not everybody needed to buy Heroes 3 Complete. Why should I, when I already have Shadow of Death and have access to all AB maps and campaigns when neeced?

Voted for Harpy Hag. It's one of the most useful L2 , and also one of the strongest one vs one (can beat wolf raiders, and almost beat battle dwarves).

[Muszka]

It can beat battle dwarfs, with a little 'fly-around'

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Changes to level 2 units in my personal balance patch
viewtopic.php?t=7079

Increased health of Archer/Marksman from 10 to 11
Increased defense skill of Archer/Marskman from 3 to 4
Increased basic growth of Gog/Magog from 8 to 9
Decreased gold cost of Magog from 175 to 165
Increased basic growth of Walking Dead/Zombie from 8 to 9
Increased defense skill of Walking Dead/Zombie from 5 to 6
Increased basic growth of Harpy/Harpy Hag from 8 to 9
Increased damage of Wolf Rider from 2-4 to 3-4
Decreased attack skill of Wolf Raider from 8 to 7
Increased health of Wolf Rider/Wolf Raider from 10 to 12
Increased gold cost of Wolf Rider from 100 to 105
Increased gold cost of Wolf Raider from 140 to 145
Decreased health of Lizard Warrior from 15 to 14
Decreased defense skill of Lizard Warrior from 8 to 7