Heroes 3: How does the creature bonus actually work?

[Toge]

I was playing the game with level 9 Nymus.
Her stats:
Attack 6
Defense 5
Power 6
Knowledge 3

Her bonus is Pit Fiends and Pit Lords.
"Increases the Attack and Defense skills of any Pit Fiends or Lords for each level attained after 5th level"

I thought that for each level 6, 7, 8, ... Attack and Defense skills for Pit Fiends & Lords would increase by one. But that is not so. When I looked at the stack of Pit Fiends, their stats looked like this:

Attack 13(22)
Defense 13(19)
Speed 6(7)

If you take out primary attribute bonuses you will see that the creature bonus just adds +1 to attack, defense and speed and that the bonus just doesn't work before level 6. Lame bonus and so vaguely stated

[Toge]

Dead forum?

[Suleman]

Dead forum?

No, there just isn't much to add.

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

I can't help but wonder how many people knew about this? It embarrasses me a bit to say I did not. After it's recently been brought to my attention how the skill bonuses through specialization work, this is another bummer.
I guess the +1 speed is the main attraction then. Ironically that doesn't require leveling up at all.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

It does eventually give +2 att/ +2 def when you reach a high enough level.

[Pol]

It does eventually give +2 att/ +2 def when you reach a high enough level.

If you take out primary attribute bonuses you will see that the creature bonus just adds +1 to attack, defense and speed and that the bonus just doesn't work before level 6. Lame bonus and so vaguely stated

Go with Imps then, their bonus is growing with each hero level. Until they become killer monsters.

The speed boost work and doesn't multiply with more levels.

[Paulus1]

I made a small test for the creature bonus system, but I used Valeska.
Her special is added attack+defence for Archers after lvl 2.

The system went like this:
Lvl 2: +1 att +1 def
Lvl 8: +1 att
Lvl 14: +1 att +1 def
Lvl 22: +1 att
Lvl 28: +1 att +1 def
(grand total at lvl 28: Added 5 attack + 3 defence)

I didn't bother to continue, but I think you get the picture.
A similar scheme should be ussed by the other creature specialists, but of course with varying starting points.

[JackintheMox]

Extending from Paulus's results, here is a comparison of heroes with level 1 creature specialties and their bonuses through level 33. I actually have data on all creatures specialists but I am having trouble finding an easy format to report the data on that won't take up too much room. Most people may not even find it worth it to know what the "breakpoint" levels are for each creature specialist anyway. If you have suggestions or want to know about a particular creature specialist bonus, please let me know.

Level 1 Creature Specialist Comparison:

Castle: None
Rampart: None
Tower: None
Fortress:

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Drakon
    Level 1   +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 5   +1 Def
    Level 7   +1 Att
    Level 9   +1 Def
    Level 12  +1 Def
    Level 14  +1 Att
    Level 17  +1 Def
    Level 21  +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 24  +1 Def
    Level 27  +1 Att
    Level 28  +1 Def
    Level 33  +1 Def
    Total Bonuses through Level 33: +5 Att, +9 Def

Stronghold:

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Gretchin
    Level 1:  +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 6:  +1 Att
    Level 11: +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 16: +1 Att
    Level 21: +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 26: +1 Att
    Level 31: +1 Att, +1 Def
    Total Bonuses through Level 33: +7 Att, +4 Def

Dungeon:

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Shakti
    Level 1:  +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 6:  +1 Att
    Level 7:  +1 Def
    Level 11: +1 Att
    Level 14: +1 Def
    Level 16: +1 Att
    Level 21: +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 26: +1 Att
    Level 27: +1 Def
    Level 31: +1 Att
    Total Bonuses through Level 33: +7 Att, +5 Def

Inferno:

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Ignatius
    Level 1:  +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 7:  +1 Def
    Level 11: +1 Att
    Level 14: +1 Def
    Level 21: +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 27: +1 Def
    Level 31: +1 Att
    Total Bonuses through Level 33: +4 Att, +5 Def

Necropolis:

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Galthran
    Level 1:  +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 5:  +1 Att
    Level 6:  +1 Def
    Level 9:  +1 Att
    Level 11: +1 Def
    Level 12: +1 Att
    Level 16: +1 Def
    Level 17: +1 Att
    Level 21: +1 Att, +1 Def
    Level 24: +1 Att
    Level 26: +1 Def
    Level 28: +1 Att
    Level 31: +1 Def
    Level 33: +1 Att
    Total Bonuses through Level 33: +9 Att, +7 Def

Conflux: None

[Paulus1]

I find it quite weird, that the bonus isn't the same for the same class... for example that Gnolls get an additional 14 skillpoints from the level 33 Beastmaster, while Inferno only get an additional 9 skillpoints from the level 33 Demoniac.

And the quite random way those additional skillpoints are distributed amongst level ups... the only one that's linear seems to be Gretchin.

[Suleman]

Can we conclude that if you don't count additional starting units, creature specialists aren't worth it?

[Jolly Joker]

No, we can't.
In many cases the main thing - which is missing in H 5 creature specialists - is the 1 speed bonus.

Take into account that such a (low level) creature specialist will in many cases raise the movement allowance. Galtrans Skeletons, for example, will have speed 5 instead of 4 which gains ONE movement tile each turn, as long as Galtran is on the march with Skeletons only, which means, that he's got an immediate movement advantage. The same is true for other low level specialists as well. Compare that with the logistics specialists: They gain 5% ON THE SKILL per level. At start they won't have more than a 17 tile allowance. A level 1 hero with logistics gains 10.5% instead of 10, which means the movement allowance is 18.785 instead of 18.700 which is quite insignificant. The real gain here starts later on, but even with Expert logistics it takes 7 levels to gain a full point of movement allowance with the Logistics specialists.

The attack and defense plus is an additional gain at start: here one more attack and defense plus the additional speed plus the additional stack transfers into a direct and massive percentage gain on the battlefield which is very significant on the high difficulty levels.

A low level creture specialist is a very solid pick - it's the higher ones that suck.

[JackintheMox]

It is interesting to note that Conflux creature specialists are arguably the worst of the creature specialists. The creature specialists in Conflux do not give their respective creatures a speed bonus and do not give their creatures bonuses on a level basis. The creatures receive a static boost, which is nice early on but quickly gets outclassed as the hero gains levels compared to their "peers". That and the Conflux town is a very strong magic hero town. I would venture to say Conflux creature specialists aren't worth it.

[Toge]

I think usefulness of creature specialists depend heavily on circumstances. Galtran is an example of hero which gives actual benefit, because skeletons are cornerstone of every Necropolis army. Even then if you don't leave zombies at home, you will gain no benefit to travel distance. On the other hand, boosting the weakest stack of troops on other towns seems foolish. I've had impressive stacks of 400 gnolls, goblins, familiars take 70-100 losses per single hit at endgame battles. Higher level units last longer in general and thus receive smaller benefit from creature specialists.

Creature specialist gives tangible advantage in battlefield and *may* also increase movement speed on adventure map if one plays his cards right. It's a tought question. I'd really want to have some kind of formula for those attack/defense bonuses.

Edit: here's some town statistics for army speed if you take upgraded versions of every creature. (2) means there's two creatures with same speed.

Castle: 5 (1)
Tower: 5 (2)
Rampart: 4 (1)
Fortress: 5 (2)
Stronghold: 5 (2)
Inferno: 6 (2)
Necropolis: 4 (1)
Dungeon: 5 (1)
Conflux: 6 (2)

[Jolly Joker]

I don't think it's such a tough question at all. Whether a (low) level creature booster is useful or not, depends on whether there is a phase you depend heavily on it (and the longer that phase the more useful it is) AND/OR the additional speed will give you a tactical edge in certain situations (speedier shooters come to mind, but other - more special - cases as well).

The Gargoyle specialist of the Academy is an example for a not so useful special: the Gargoyles are not your slowest unit, and it would be foolish to try and creep the first weeks with Gargoyles alone. In the beginning they have their use as guards for the Gremlins. Upgraded and with Tactics they may be useful as blockers for faster shooters, but in that case the additional speed and att/def doesn't add much to it.
r

[Zubbus]

And the quite random way those additional skillpoints are distributed amongst level ups... the only one that's linear seems to be Gretchin.

Don't look random to me, just "fractioned" - Dungeon level 1 is clearly 1 att every 5 levels and 1 def every 6 to 7 levels.
It might add a % bonus to the skills based on what their base values are.