Does harm touch need a change?

[DaemianLucifer]

Do you think that wraiths harm touch is good the way it is(as if),or do you think it should change.And if it does,how?

Note:This is only about the harm touch ability of the wraiths,so if you think that wraiths should also be changed in some other way,say that in another thread.

[DaemianLucifer]

Voted for the last option,and here is my idea(although most of you do know it):

Wraiths attack should work like the hand of death in HIV,meaning it would always kill creatures and not harm them.It still should have some damage it does,but the last creature in the stack it hurts would die instead of being wounded.

[Mytical]

Personally I think the number of creatures should influence how much it does. It should at least kill 1, but possibly more depending on how many their are.

[asandir]

should work like vorpal sword IMO

[ecsunotos]

Vote : Gorgon's death stare!
The Harm Touch is not an activated ability but has a probability to occure. The probability and the number of creature killed should be raised depend on number of wraith. When the harm touch happen, at least 1 creature killed !
It was always fun to wait and then see the mighty gorgon's death stare happen and kill several level 7 unit !

[okrane]

voted gorgon death stare... because those wraiths remind me of the angel of death... with their scythe and all... so I guess they should really kill stuff...

I would also agree to leave it as it is only if it would kill more than one creature depending on the stack size... say 1 kill/5 wraiths(just an example)...

and another thing... I hate bone dragons... their model, their abilities, their stats, their cost, everything about them... they should be replaced with something more interesting and more useful...

[Jolly Joker]

Speaking of useless abilities: back in H 3, when they were level 3, they would regenerate - with 18 HPs per unit not exactly a useful ability.

People should do a bit of math before complaining. Necromancers have no noteworthy attack value, so the attack value of their monsters' regular attacks will be made more or less at face value. The typical level 21 Necro will have attack 2, the typical level 21 Ranger or Knight will have a Defense of 11 (without artifacts or object visits). Now give the Ranger Advanced Light (only) and a Mass Endurance casting for another +9 on defense (Vulnerability will cut Defense only by 3-6). Give the Necro expert Offense and the Ranger expert Defense and we have the following picture

The Wraith will have a modified attack of 28 with a frenzy-modified damage of 26-31 plus 15% attack. The Emeralds will have a modified defense value of 47 with another 30% defense reduction. That means, in this example a Wraith will do only 40% of its regular Damage against an Emerald, abou 10-12 damage per Wraiths. An Emerald has 200 HPs, so to kill TWO Emeralds with a normal hit you'll need AT LEAST 34 Wraiths.

That means two things. Against lower level units, basically everything up to most level 5, you can use the normal Wraith attack. Against a higher level unit, especially the level 7 you can use your Harm Touch attack killing one without retaliation.

The main thing here is, that should the opponent massacre your Wraiths, a few left can still kill an Angel or something.

The point that the special is useless when having a million Wraiths is no point at all - with so many creatures all Destructive and most summoning spells are useless as well, as is the hero attack and so on. The game wasn't designed for battling with so many creatures (the Heroes games before this weren't as well, by the way).

[okrane]

I completely agree...

but still... one creature not so great... why not increase the number of killed creatures with the stack of wraiths... say +1creature/10 wraiths... this way 34 wraiths would kill 4 creatures, and 1 wraith would kill one creature...not that overpowered imo....

[DaemianLucifer]

@Jolly Joker

So you voted it should stay then?Who is the second one that voted that?

As for your analysis,it does prove that for a tier 6 creature(make that an expensive tier 6 creature)wraiths are pathetic and enhancing their special could be only good.

[Jolly Joker]

Not at all, DL.
It does prove that a hero with defense as primary stat and Light magic like Knights and Rangers has tough creatures that are difficult to beat with regular attack and damage values.
To continue the above example, a Necromancer of level 21 has a defense of 7, while a Ranger has an attack of 3. Now cast Mass Suffering on the Rangers's troops on advanced level and the Emeralds will have an attack of 25 while the Wraiths will have a defense of 31. That will drop the Emeralds damage output to 25-43 or an average of 34 which isn't all too much for a level 7 fighting against a level 6. Add expert Attack and Defense and it drops to about 31 average damage.

[Adicto]

Sorry JJ but I cannot see how much useful can be Harm Touch in the whole game, not only in some little situations.

You are saying that wraiths are there for dispelling when I play against sylvan or haven, so I pay 1800gp per wraith only for that. Then I have never seen a most overpriced creature in my life.

Seriously, Harm Touch (Melee Dispell lol) is an ability for a low lvl creature (mages & sprites have the spell cleanising...), but not for a lvl 6. Harm Touch should work different, and wraiths should dispell positive effects with the normal attack.

But this discussion is pointless, we all know that nothing is gonna change about that.

[Jolly Joker]

Well, maybe you should just check out the game again because Harm Touch will kill one creature apart of that - so not only it will dispell the Endurance on the Dragons it will kill one Dragon as well - unretaliated, I may add here.

[Adicto]

Well, maybe you should just check out the game again because Harm Touch will kill one creature apart of that - so not only it will dispell the Endurance on the Dragons it will kill one Dragon as well - unretaliated, I may add here.

lol I know that, but as you said -> "Against a higher level unit, especially the level 7" and Knights and Rangers, so the Harm Touch's 1 kill part is only useful against 1 or 2 creatures when I face those factions, and almost useless against all the others.

[Jolly Joker]

Actually the kill-ability is useful in all cases where the normal attack wouldn't kill more than one unit. That means, in the example I made that you'd need at least 34 Wraiths to kill TWO Emeralds, so with every lesser number of Wraiths the Harm Touch would probably the better attack. However, against other level 7s and towns only the number is reduced, let's say to 25 or even 20.
I have to say that I don't understand here why I have to explain all the situations where the ability will be of use. You should be able to see all that for yourselves.

[Marzhin]

As far as I'm concerned, the only problem with Harm Touch is when the AI uses it against peasants or pixies

[Gaidal Cain]

I don't see why this ability shouldn't scale. As far as I'm concerned, nonlinearities in terms of creature powers only makes them harder to balance.

JJ: Do you really think a knight or ranger with an already massive advantage in defence is going to cast Endurance and not for example mass speed? Or that a necromancer is going to use Mass Suffering and not Puppet Master, or berserk? You're using a scenario that's about as bad for the wraiths as it can get.

[Shauku]

I wouldn't mind the ability to increase by 1 for every 20 Wraiths. No, I don't want a percentage like the Mighty Moos had. I want accuracy, and taht is why I have liked the Wrights ability so far. But I wouldn't mind it being more powerful, as the Wraith has no other abilities. They do good damage though.

And GC: Mass Endurance is a very good spell, and I will use it in a big fight for sure. Perhaps after the Haste, but would use it nevertheless. And you are supposing that necro has Puppet Master or Frenzy at every stage of the game? Well not in my games.

[Jolly Joker]

All scaled special creature attacks are working non-linear, so a scaled Wraith-Harm-Touch would work like
1-20: 1
21-60: 2
61- 140: 3
and so on. I wouldn't have any problem with such a kind of scaling. Of course then there was no reason not to introduce something like that for Pit Lords and Vorpal Sword as well.

[Gaidal Cain]

I wouldn't mind the ability to increase by 1 for every 20 Wraiths. No, I don't want a percentage like the Mighty Moos had. I want accuracy, and taht is why I have liked the Wrights ability so far. But I wouldn't mind it being more powerful, as the Wraith has no other abilities. They do good damage though.

And GC: Mass Endurance is a very good spell, and I will use it in a big fight for sure. Perhaps after the Haste, but would use it nevertheless. And you are supposing that necro has Puppet Master or Frenzy at every stage of the game? Well not in my games.

At level 20, I don't think it's too much of a stretch. There pught to be some more advanced spells than Mass suffering.

JJ:not so. Lizard bite, Dragon breath, Chain shot, Titan's Lightning, Battle dive all scale linearly. It's mostly spells, or things that has the same effect as a spell, that doesn't (and then not always either- see Titans).

[DaemianLucifer]

All scaled special creature attacks are working non-linear, so a scaled Wraith-Harm-Touch would work like
1-20: 1
21-60: 2
61- 140: 3
and so on. I wouldn't have any problem with such a kind of scaling. Of course then there was no reason not to introduce something like that for Pit Lords and Vorpal Sword as well.

If thats the case,why did you vote the first option?

Anyhow who else voted for the last option?It says to specify,so please say "Voted last option because..."