Casters in melee

[DaemianLucifer]

Reading the new interview just opened my eyes to an interesting fact.While getting a melee stack next to a ranged creature prevents it from shooting,getting a ranged creature near a caster doesnt stop him from casting its spells.Why is that?Its a flaw that we witnessed in every sequel of the heroes and has never been adressed to.

[TinBane]

IMHO its one of the perks casters have. Usually, they are weaker (overall) than archers at high levels. For instance titans are much better shooting than casting lightning, but its useful as if they chuck something into contact with your titan, you can lightning instead of giving away a free retaliation.

[DaemianLucifer]

But its illogical.The lich is unable to raise its staff to kill all the melee units surrounding him,yet it still can thumb through his spellbook The explanation for ranged unit not being able to shoot when someones near them was always that the melee unit threatened to have a free hit when they shoot(at least thats how I understand it,and thats how its been in all RPGs I play).But the casters should be hindered as well then.

[TinBane]

It maybe illogical, but there are many things similarly illogical. If you take it meta-game (outside the theme, just as mechanics) it offers a method of differentiating spellcasters from shooters, and giving hybrids (titans/liches/mages) an advantage to counter other advantages (succubi's "pinball" fireball when upgraded).

I agree, it seems a little silly, however there is precedent (in DnD, which you seem to be citing) such as "defensive casting". Perhaps they should introduce that, and allow a chance of failure?

[DaemianLucifer]

I agree, it seems a little silly, however there is precedent (in DnD, which you seem to be citing) such as "defensive casting". Perhaps they should introduce that, and allow a chance of failure?

Nope,its not just D&D.I said RPGs,plural.Its like that in every setting I played.Ranged attack has a severe penalty when engaded in melee.

[TinBane]

Well: DnD allows casting of spells under defensive casting rule, without retalitation.
Warhammer: Also allows casting of some spells in melee.
IKWarmachine: Also allows casting of non-shooting spells in melee.

[MrSteamTank]

It's not a problem if it is properly balanced. Unfortunately in homm5 that doesn't seem to be properly balanced in some units such as arch-druid and arch-magi.

Also don't forget spells bypass high defense so an arch-druid hitting a stack of arch-angels will also bypass the 15 or so defense/attack difference on top of the damage bonus.

[Caradoc]

I think you can rationalize this by imagining that the caster aims the spell mentally and is not impaired as a shooter would be.

[ThunderTitan]

Casters have a high Concentration skill and the Combat Casting feat. Shooters don't have the Point Blank Shot feat.

[DaemianLucifer]

Casters have a high Concentration skill and the Combat Casting feat. Shooters don't have the Point Blank Shot feat.

Riiiiight...

Anyhow,just like about shooters and walls,there should be some creatures that can shoot in melee and some casters that can cast in melee.Although there should be LoS.Casters using books(like liches and mages)shouldnt be able to cast in melee,but titans should.Also liches should be able to shoot in melee but archers shouldnt(its just logical,because parying with a staff is much,much easier then with a bow).

[jaq]

But 'tis overcomplicated. Leave it as it is, HOMM need not to be just like another RPG. I'ts already too similiar.

[Pitsu]

But its illogical.

I have technical problems *throwing* stones on my wrestling partner, but i may find time to say "abracadabra" during the action.

[DaemianLucifer]

But 'tis overcomplicated. Leave it as it is, HOMM need not to be just like another RPG. I'ts already too similiar.

This has nothing to do with RPGs but with realism.Overcomplicated?I doubt that very much.Look how many data you have for units in homeworld,for example.Yet its still a very fun game,and considering that its an RTS,all those data are neatly packed so they dont give you much trouble.Plus this will make heroes creatures even more unique.I know its hard to balance,but dont stand on the developers side.They get their money for making a good game,no matter how hard it is.Demand more!Demand better!You pay for it,so you deserve the best!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Casters have a high Concentration skill and the Combat Casting feat. Shooters don't have the Point Blank Shot feat.

Riiiiight...

Anyhow,just like about shooters and walls,there should be some creatures that can shoot in melee and some casters that can cast in melee.Although there should be LoS.Casters using books(like liches and mages)shouldnt be able to cast in melee,but titans should.Also liches should be able to shoot in melee but archers shouldnt(its just logical,because parying with a staff is much,much easier then with a bow).

You complain about melee units getting a raw deal because of casters not having a penalty when next to a melee unit.

I'll complain about casters getting the raw deal.

Too many units can cross the battlefield in one turn and close on the caster too quickly.

And archmages have to be left unprotected in order to shoot.

Casting units have too few spell points. They are easily drained by the overpowered melee unit imp/familiar.

Why should not the melee units have a penalty to their melee attack when right next to a caster unit? "OMG, that's an archmage! I'm going to get fried by a fireball or turned into a horny toad! Run for your life! Aaaiiiiiiiii!" Half the melee stack deserts the battle. One quarter attack normally and the rest do nothing but soil thier pants that round.

How complicated do you want to get and whose ideas are we going to use?

GOW

[Caradoc]

How complicated do you want to get and whose ideas are we going to use?

GOW

Simple. Mine, of course.

[vicheron]

A lot of things in the Heroes series is unrealistic. How can 100 Dragons fit in the same space as 1 Dragon? How can a stack of 1 creature stop a stack of 10,000 shooters from shooting? How can an ammo cart hold an infinite amount of ammo that work for every shooter in the game? Why are gargoyles and elementals affected by morale?

[DaemianLucifer]

A lot of things in the Heroes series is unrealistic. How can 100 Dragons fit in the same space as 1 Dragon? How can a stack of 1 creature stop a stack of 10,000 shooters from shooting? How can an ammo cart hold an infinite amount of ammo that work for every shooter in the game? Why are gargoyles and elementals affected by morale?

Except for the 100 dragons fitting the same space as 1,everything else there can be fixed,and Ive seen lots of good suggestions for fixing them.But,unfortunately,none of those will be implemented.*sigh*!

[asandir]

well if the game bogs down in areas with lots of trees, i'd hate to see what happens in end game fights with 100+ dragons if they all have to be displayed individually!!!

hang on guys - this is a fantasy game .... you know, like make believe ....

[DaemianLucifer]

hang on guys - this is a fantasy game .... you know, like make believe ....

Ah,again the fantasy argument.Just because its fantasy doesnt mean that its illogical.Hell,some of the fantasy worlds Ive played/GMed make a lot more sense then the real world.Their rules are clear,logical,and easily explainable.

[TinBane]

If you want to change the game, then fine, its not perfect, however it is designed to stick to the heroes canon of game conventions. Some of those including having one creature have all the 'perks' of multiple creatues (1 peasant can stop 10000 paladins getting past) can't be fixed without fundamentally changing the game.

Perhaps you should make a heroes mod for rome total war?

At its core, heroes is a "chess" game. 'pieces' have special "moves" which are different. Starting with heroesIV, casters have been able to cast spells while in melee (well, in hommIII if you including genies/angels). I think its a good idea, which adds more depth to the game. Your units can curtail archers but not spellcasters, and hybrids (lich etc) can change what they do. At the end of the day, each 'unit' is just a representation of what the unit is doing, for the purposes of drama, not reality.

Logically, if a liche can make a knife hit something with enough power to kill it, it could prevent an enemy from getting near it with similar powers. Logically, a defending unit with reach should attack an enemy charging it.

Too much complexity, will not improve heroesV. I personally like it the way it is.