An idea for Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld

[Elvin]

I guess a new version of divine interception that cleanses all units and raises an anount of hp at the same time(less than resurrection of course) or guardian angel would be better.Or hand of death for dark...H4 had some pretty good spells truth be told.But that's hoping for too much I fear
On fixing the current spells:@JJ: I had in mind the caster's creatures-not all present in the battlefield.This way I'd work even if it didn't damage the enemy creatures.If not a random spell how about an improved version of benediction?Maybe adding dungeon for word of light would be fairer,affecting 3 out of 6 factions(7 with the dwarves...)

[Jolly Joker]

I think that the spells as such are not the problem. They have a high base damage output that will allow even low spell power heros to make effective use of them; on the other hand, since the spell is normally meant to hurt only the opponent (as opposed to Armageddon) the damage output is no problem.
The problem for me is the fact that the spells might be useless. You play as Inferno against Nekropolis, for example, and you have no working level 5 Dark Magic spell as Inferno. WoL is even worse; the Dwarves won't make things better because they have Light Magic as well in their Guild, btw.
So I don't think adding a function to the spell will change something - that would make the spells massively overpowered then in case of them "fitting".
So the problem for me is the fact that they are sometimes completely useless, i.e, you play Ranger against Knight, for example.

[Gaidal Cain]

Well, both Dark Magic's level 5 spells are useless against necropolis, so you'd have to be doing even more changing. Then again, I think that just using the final combat as a guide of usefulness isn't enough: resurrection for example is often more valuable before when it lowers your losses and lets you enter the final combat with larger forces. Same for Raise dead for necromancers - or necromancy, for that matter. Still, I think both spells would be better of as level three or four- they aren't that powerful, because you seldom fight enemies of both right alignment and with enough stacks to make them worthwhile.

[maltz]

The Curse of the Netherwind is actually quite handy when you face a large number of stacks - more than 1000 damages in one go.

[Jolly Joker]

Well, yes, that's what I said in the other thread: CotN is a lot better than WoL. WoL is of use only when you face Necro or Infernal creatures which doesn't do - even less when you think about the addon: the Dwarves will be a Light faction as well.
As a matter of principle there shouldn't be a spell that doesn't work against 5 out of 7 opponents. Not even on level 1. I have no problem with the fact that some spells don't work against undead or elementals or mechanical units. But is it really necessary to have a spell like that as level 5? I mean, a lot of the H IV spells are redundant, but I don't think it is difficult to find an adequate level 5 light spell.

[Adicto]

C´mon JJ, you know that imagination and brillancy aren´t Nival´s strong points. Nothing will change, not for good at least.

[Elvin]

@JJ: So you say that dwarves are a light faction.Would it be too much to ask what the other favoured school is?Runic magic have their own guild or are they the second school?And one more:About the new spells,will there be new in the 4 familiar ones?

[MrSteamTank]

Making them useful would be easy.

Make word of light and curse of the netherworld have minor secondary effects(this would apply to all creatures with the dmg only applying to the specific creature in question).

Example :
Word of Light casts a weakened version of confusion on all targets.

Curse of the Netherworlds casts a weakened version of suffering on all targets.

If they still suck you could always make these secondary effects only apply to enemy creatures.

Problem solved.

[Mytical]

Having these level 5 just doesn't seem right somehow, too weak for the price/level. Chain lightning is more useful against undead/Inferno ect (WoL) or other towns (CotN). It is only a 4th level spell. Still just giving them another effect won't really earn them a good level 5 rating. Either make them more powerful, or lessen the circle/cost of them. Replacing them would be my choice. Maybe with something like...

Level 1= Aid - 75% chance of removal of all negative spells on a stack and add +1 hp(this is at any skill level) + (1x 1.5 spellpower (sp))in hp this does not 'fade' but only effects the top unit and once taken away by damage is gone. 6 mana

Level 2= Restore - Adds 3xspxskill in health to target stack, can not ressurrect any fallen creatures. Also can not take target to above max hp. 7 mana

Level 5 = Divine Heal - Combines Aid and restore, but can ressurect creatures. 15 mana (restores first, the casts Aid).

[Jolly Joker]

@Elvin: The Dwarves have Light and Destruction like the Rangers. I couldn't figure out yet how the heroes develop, but they are back to Rune Mages now and I suppose they are middlish somehow.
About new spells I don't know what will be in actually; translating things, I've learned, doesn't mean things have to be in necessarily (yet), so I can't say anything here really.

[Elvin]

Hehe Things change all the time,none can be sure what will come out eventually.But even this insight is just as fine,thanks!I find it disappointing that destruction goes to a non magic hero as you can only enjoy them with a warlock currently-maybe necromancer if you can find some spells.Wizards and rangers have their uses for it but still they are lacking in spellpower.

[DaemianLucifer]

Tripple balista more then makes up for it.

[Jolly Joker]

Hehe Things change all the time,none can be sure what will come out eventually.But even this insight is just as fine,thanks!I find it disappointing that destruction goes to a non magic hero as you can only enjoy them with a warlock currently-maybe necromancer if you can find some spells.Wizards and rangers have their uses for it but still they are lacking in spellpower.

It looks like the Hero IS more magical. Don't let yourself fool by the stats of that example hero. They start 0 1 2 2 and won't be Warlocks but develop enough magical points. They look pretty balanced all in all.

[Elvin]

You've just made my day! But this way will the dwarves be able to cast both types of magic simultaneously?We'll have to wait and see but if so it will be a refreshing experience!Seems like the battlemage has returned in a different incarnation.

[Jolly Joker]

It looks like there are a lot of misconceptions around of how Rune Magic will work. Here are some explanations that will make things clearer.
You could say that Rune Magic has two parts, the creature part and the hero part.
Basically, if it's a creature's turn that creature may elect to put an eligible Rune onto itself which is an action that costs no initiative. So let's say it's your defenders's turn and an eligible Rune is the Rune of Charge, a level 1 Rune that will double speed for one (this) round. This costs 1 Wood and will immediately double the speed of the Defenders from 4 to 8 for that move. A Rune may be used any number of times in a battle, but in general only once at the same time (which is irrelevant for the Rune of Charge).
Runelore, as the Dwarven racial, allows learning runes of the three circles and gives access to three abilities: Fine Rune. This will give a 50% chance that you don't need resources for a rune activation; Refresh Rune; this is a hero action allowing to activate a Rune again for a unit that already had an active rune on it for 50% of the hero initiative; and lastly Greater Rune which will allow activating a rune on a second unit (while it is active on another one) for triple the resource cost.
You see, that the hero is basically free to cast normal magic. The Hero has to learn the Runes (via Runelore), but the creatures do most of the rest.
In case you should think now, wow, these cool Dwarven units with their cool abilities and all that Rune stuff additionally plus so many cool new hero abilities, they must be an über-faction. Err, no, not exactly. The dwellings cost resources like hell and creature stats are, as you might have thought at this point, a bit on the weaker side. To give you an idea, the attack value of their level 5 basic creature, the Rune Priest, is a whopping 10 while defense is, drummroll please.... 6 as in six. Don't get me wrong. It's great. It's extremely interesting. It's a hell of a lot of fun.
The interesting thing is, as an opponent there's nothing guaranteed if you play against a Dwarven army. You see the units' stats and, yes, that should be an easy win, but once it's a unit's turn you may see any number of mostly unpleasant surprises and you will ask yourself a lot: What the hell has just happened?[/i]

[Elvin]

From what I gather,unless the hero has greater rune there can't be more than one runes and if he does two of them at the same time are costly.The rune's duration is for the creature's action or does it depend on the hero?And the hero can 'cast' runes or just refreshes them wth the ability?Seems the dwarves will DEPEND on it though it can be tricky with many possibilities.This combination of runes,regular magic and new abilities should be quite thought-provoking

[Jolly Joker]

There can be as many Runes at the same time as there are DIFFERENT runes. But one and the same rune can only be active on one unit except for Greater Rune and triple the resource costs. How long a Rune is active depends on the Rune. Some Runes are active only for one action, but some are longer active. Since a creature can cast the Rune on itself without losing anything Heroes don't need to cast them. I don't know whether they can, but they are in their spellbook.

[DaemianLucifer]

From what I gather,the duration will depend on the runes themselves.And yes,it sounds like a very nice system.Lets just hope they dont dumb it down like elemental vision.

[Mytical]

hmm how this topic got into WoL/CotN I have yet to figure out, but I must say this actually sounds ineresting (or JJ is a good sellsperson but the effect is the same) I am now more interested in getting this expansion. I think dwarves might be what Academy could have been (well except of course they will have higher att/def and lower know/SP) where magical specials make up for physical weaknesses. If they had did this with the mages instead of the mini artifacts they could have rocked . Boy would i have been happier then a cat that just ate the canary AND the goldfish. Anyhow, this does seem very interesting...maybe soon I will be able to convince Sir_Toejam to do some rewiring to have the dwarves unit special under my beloved academy's skins...unless the dwarves just prove to interesting to even worry about it!!

[Jolly Joker]

Here's something, then, the MP players won't like for the Dwarves: the unit characteristics favor longer attrition battles in the beginning.
@ Mytical. What the Dwarven hero will make up in Att/Def against the Wizard their units (except the level 7) will lose. 10 6 for a basic level 5 is not the best attack and defense out there. Their level 3 has a high defense value, but that's about it. Furthermore the units have a low damage output.
In fact I expect most players having massive difficulties with the Dwarves at start.