Is it just me or do non-magic heroes suck? (H2)

[darussiaman]

OK this is mostly aimed at H2. But I guess I'd like to hear what u think about H3 as well, if u care to answer. But I'd like to keep H4 out of this cuz it's just too different (and I haven't played it much).

[ThunderTitan]

Non-magic heroes do "suck" in all HoMM's, except maybe H4, when compared with the magic ones. Thne again spellbook cost only 500gp, so there's no reason not to buy them.

[Metathron]

I don't think they're actually any weaker on average, and like it's already been said, you can always equip them with the spell book so they can cast level 1 and 2 spells, to even out the odds.

[Gaidal Cain]

Actually, once enough time has passed for armies to grow and might heroes to get a few points of Spell Power and Knowledge, they're far more effective than Magic Heroes. Spell Power are pretty much useless in large quantities (who cares if our slow lasts 15 turns when the battle's over in 5?), and knowledge isn't terribly effective either unless you've got some of the really powerful spells (Dim Door or Berserk). Magic heroes are good in certain stages of the game, but Might heroes does overcome them in the end.

[ThunderTitan]

I don't think they're actually any weaker on average, and like it's already been said, you can always equip them with the spell book so they can cast level 1 and 2 spells, to even out the odds.

And they're not non-magic heroes anymore. They're less-magic heroes. And having 5 more points in attack and defense doesn't make as much of a diference as certain spells.

And I consider a hero that has Expert Wisdom a magic one, even if he has more Atk and Def than Pwr and Knwldg.

[Corribus]

In the long run I'm not sure it really makes much difference. While I believe the might/magic classification of your hero affects the stat which is raised every time a level is gained (i.e., attack, defense, etc.) by far most of your stat points will come from artifacts anyway and because there are no restrictions on on what artifacts any hero can wear, you can customize any hero any way you want (i.e., you may start with a might hero and turn him into the greatest wizard around town). Also while your class type influences what sort of skills are offered at level-up, again there are map structures that will allow any hero to get any skill.

If the designers had really wanted there to be a pronounced difference, they would have put restrictions on what the two different hero types could learn.

[ThunderTitan]

You forgot to mention that you also get stats from adv map objects. But if you actualy don't buy a spellbook you'd be at a disadvantage against a hero that has one even if you have better stats.

[Bandobras Took]

It's just you.

Seriously, there are scores of people in H2 who heartily recommend buying a Barbarian to lead your Sorceress troops around. The high attack combined with two high-speed ranged units and the fastest flier in the game does significant damage.

Also, Knights in H2 start with Leadership and Ballistics -- two very useful skills.

Spellcasters can be nasty, but I've never had any particular problems with the two non-spellcasters. They appeal to a different kind of player, perhaps, but they're still worthwhile.

[ThunderTitan]

@Took:
Did you play them without any spells?

[Metathron]

I don't think they're actually any weaker on average, and like it's already been said, you can always equip them with the spell book so they can cast level 1 and 2 spells, to even out the odds.

And they're not non-magic heroes anymore. They're less-magic heroes. And having 5 more points in attack and defense doesn't make as much of a diference as certain spells.

And I consider a hero that has Expert Wisdom a magic one, even if he has more Atk and Def than Pwr and Knwldg.

That's your opinion, and I don't find it all that sensible. To me, a might hero with the knowledge of a few spells is still overwhelmingly a might hero. Just like a magic hero with a few attack/defense artifacts is still a magic hero. There is a reason why magic heroes advance predominantly in magic skills and why might heroes do in might skills. Things are certainly not black and white but there is an obvious distinction between a might hero and a magic one IMO.

[ThunderTitan]

That's your opinion, and I don't find it all that sensible. To me, a might hero with the knowledge of a few spells is still overwhelmingly a might hero. Just like a magic hero with a few attack/defense artifacts is still a magic hero. There is a reason why magic heroes advance predominantly in magic skills and why might heroes do in might skills. Things are certainly not black and white but there is an obvious distinction between a might hero and a magic one IMO.

If he has Expert Wisdom than he doesn't just know a few spells. And if he only knows lvl1&2 spells i don't see how you can call him a non-magic hero (as the first poster said).

[Gaidal Cain]

And I consider a hero that has Expert Wisdom a magic one, even if he has more Atk and Def than Pwr and Knwldg.

I consider a hero with Expert Wisdom a normal one (at least when it has been developed a bit). You may take this as support for your case if you wish, but since I seems to have a different definition on what's and what's not a magic hero than you do, all we'd do is to argue semantics. Unless the original asker clarifies what he means by a "non-magic hero", I don't think we'll get much out of discussing the matter further.

[gravyluvr]

Seriously, there are scores of people in H2 who heartily recommend buying a Barbarian to lead your Sorceress troops around. The high attack combined with two high-speed ranged units and the fastest flier in the game does significant damage.

I'm with you on this one...

In HOMM2, my goal is grab the barbarian for my sorceress troops.

Once you get to extremely high levels, you are absolutely devastating, PLUS the barbarian gets the jump on logistics so even if you have to carry around your dumpy dwarves, you still move a little further then your sailor girls.

Your Sprites, Battle Dwarves and Elves move at an Average speed so using a barbarian will help clear out the mines faster. Your beginning sorceress can flag and grab materials on foot or you can throw her in a boat if you have shipyard access to grab that much needed wood and gold. Sea scouting is her real attribute - and she does a great job of expanding your view and identifying different places to visit.

By the time you can afford your "real" army (Grand Elves, Greater Druids, Unicorns, and Phoenixes) the barbarian would be in a much more powerful position to expand your empire and take out enemies with a fast attack army then a magic user would. The barbarian lives and dies by the Dispel, Cure and other level one spells. If I end up giving them wisdom it's always later in the game since they have other more desirable skills in early game.


Favorite Skills: I always try to expert, advance and learn these five skills...
Pathfinding (4)
Logistics (3)
Archery (3)
Ballistics (3)
Leadership (3)

As a general rule of thumb I always try to Expert before Advance and Advance before Basic in these skills to take advantage of the maximum the skill will provide.

Then there are four acceptable skills that I will learn if pressed into a "bad choice"
Wisdom (1)
Diplomacy (2)
Luck (2)
Estates (2)

I tend to try to use the following skills as "put-off" skills.
Navigation (3)
Scouting (4)

I define the "Put-off" skill as a skill that you try to avoid in order to "up" your favorite skills and/or learn your "acceptable" skills. Since they come with regularity, you are bound to have to fork the skills at some point, however they can help you expert in some of your favorite skills along the way. If pressed into a choice I only accept Navigation if I think I will need to sail.

And I Never choose...
Eagle Eye (1)
Mysticism (1)
Necromancy (0)

[difool]

One possible weakness of the Might heroes (talking about H3) is that it is
hard to get them the spell schools you want. It seems like a 50/50 crap-
shoot as to whether I'll be able to get both Water and Earth when I start
with a Knight (my preferred schools), while a Cleric is virtually guaranteed
to get offered both. So I usually hope I can find a Conflux town (or the
right Witch Hut, or University) before too long...

Other than that tho, Might heroes tend to dominate Magic heroes from the
midgame onwards on maps which aren't loaded with magic items (which as
someone else said will equalize things quite a bit).

[darussiaman]

dammit lol, sorry I made my first post bad! I meant to say "might" heroes instead of non-magic heroes ... I'm sorry, was really stupid of me. I notice that some of u guys interpreted that statement in various ways ...

-

I personally have always played magic heroes in both H2 and H3. It always seemed to me that strong spells make much more of a difference than offense/defense skills on the battlefield, and dimension door seems a virtual guaranteed game winner (if the other side doesn't have it too, that is). I beat one of the later missions in the H3 campaign (the one where u're a necro facing a really powerful Castle player with more castles than u) entirely by virtue of dimension door as I kept capturing his castles, buying out the troops and then leaving when the super-strong hero who had an overwhelmingly large army came to attack it. Eventually that wore him down and deprived him of replenishing troops while my army steadily grew. A might hero wouldn't have had the knowledge (the spell pts.) to do this tactic as well.

-

Anyway, I recently got into playing HoMM2 again after a looong time. And I thought to myself: "hmm, I actually never tried playing might heroes before. I always just assumed they suck." So I decided making a knight my main hero in the second mission of the Roland campaign. And I got absolutely wasted by a wizard. At first, I was kicking his ass with my champions, which I had a lot of. But he had a lot of steel golems in his army, which I hadn't dealt with yet. (In like 2 turns, I had killed a lot of his other creatures with far fewer losses on my part.) So he used Armageddon. And next turn, Elemental Storm. And all the freaking knight creatures are so damn low on HP, and plus golems only take 1/2 dmg from those spells, so I got RAPED hard! (Oh, and I also need to mention that he also has dimension door. So I kinda need to kill him ASAP or else he'll make things really really difficult, dimensioning around with a strong army.) In summary, I'm getting my ass kicked by a strong magic hero. And its not even a human player -- it's AI, and that's embarassing. So this situation seemed to rather confirm my earlier opinion from back in the day when I used to play HoMM2&3. So that's why I made this post, to see what you guys all thought on the might vs. magic issue.

[ThunderTitan]

Like I said, might heroes can still learn spells to even out the playing field, but it also counts what skills you get/choose. Might heroes have an advantage in the fact that there's only so much Pwr/Knwldg that are useful, but Atk/Def are always useful to have more.

Ur just used to playing with magic heroes.

[Orfinn]

Agree. Since might heroes have better Attack and Defence they arent that bad.

[Pitsu]

It takes time to collect ressources for magic guild. If you are playing with a might hero by the time the mage guild is up, you should have already elliminated your magican opponent or be in great economical advantage. Barbarian with sorceress troops is exactly the blitzkrieg strategy. Holding yourself back and "collecting armies" is the death of successful barb+elves combo.

When mage guilds are up magicans are in advantage at least so long as it takes for might hero to learn some magic too. Who wins depends on map size and layout and many other things.

So, if you and your opponents do not like to take some risks and develop their towns and heroes before doing the real war, magic heroes fit better. If a few wolves on first week is in your opinion good enough to conquer the world, better go with might.

I think when during Round Table battles people beated the Broken Alliance map on impossible difficulty with 4 weeks, most played with a barbarian hero as main.

[csarmi]

Actually, it's completely the other way around: magic heroes suck in heroes 2 AND heroes 3 as well, might is the way to go in both games. In heroes 4 you use both.

Difool, in h3 it's the MIGHT heroes that are virtually guaranteed to have the magic school of your choice and it's harder to get them with MAGIC heroes!

The thing is: you only really need one or maybe two magic schools. Any more is a waste. Skills such as offense, armorer, etc are mandatory (not to mention logistics, tactics). And magic heroes get sucky skills.

The key is that you use your magic skills only ONCE per round and you use your combat skills 14 times.

[darussiaman]

Well I see your guys' point. I've been playing with a knight hero, and I liked it a lot, heh. But aren't magic heroes stronger in H3 than in H2? The spells seem to be better, and u have a much higher chance to get the magic school skills with magic heroes compared to the might heroes, don't u? When I played H3, I always tried to get air, water and earth all at once along with sorcery. Once u got expert in a magic school, the spells rock. Just for example, when u have expert earth magic, and expert sorcery, Implosion and Resurrection really kick ass. They really really really kick ass if u got both of them at the same time. Expert earth slow spell is awesome too. In air magic, u get dimension door which is insanely good, and fly which is really good too, but dimension door is really really good only if u got the expert air (4 casts per day) and enough spell pts. to sustain casting it multiple turns. Then u can jump around between castles and wells, replenishing spell pts at the end of every turn or every few turns, and its ridiculous how much of an advantage u have when u can do that. And expert haste is awesome too. And expert water magic: forgetfulness (freakin sweet), teleport, clone, and water walk ... all awesome. I think because of all this H3 magic heroes are relatively stronger than H2 magic heroes.