phantom forces

[OliverFA]

Please, don't destroy the spell like happened to Town Portal. If it's too powerful for a level 3 spell just raise it to level 4 as has already been said in this thread. That will make the associated magic skill more useful without destroying a good spell.

I've said it many times, but I'll say again. High level spells are supposed to be powerful. Just make them difficult to achieve (by having to invest some level ups in getting the advanced or expert magic) and maybe raise the mana cost. But that's all.

[ThunderTitan]

Please, don't destroy the spell like happened to Town Portal. If it's too powerful for a level 3 spell just raise it to level 4 as has already been said in this thread. That will make the associated magik skill more useful without destroying a good spell.

That still doesn't make up for the fact that you can make an infinite nr. of phatoms for 1 stack.

Powerfull is onething, overpowered another.

[MrSteamTank]

Please, don't destroy the spell like happened to Town Portal. If it's too powerful for a level 3 spell just raise it to level 4 as has already been said in this thread. That will make the associated magic skill more useful without destroying a good spell.

I've said it many times, but I'll say again. High level spells are supposed to be powerful. Just make them difficult to achieve (by having to invest some level ups in getting the advanced or expert magic) and maybe raise the mana cost. But that's all.

This kind of talk reminds me of night elf players in warcraft 3. "Don't nerf hunters they are fine you just have to learn how to counter them." I think about 60% of the online community was night elf due to hunters dominating solo play.

Sure homm5 is different but what fun is it when everybody is using phantom forces like mad in every game because it's simply better than every other option?

[Alamar]

I believe that something needs to be done about Phantom Forces.

As a Level 3 spell I think at least one [or more] things would need to be fixed:

1. The HP of copies should be based on Summoning skill & spell power.

2. The intiative of the copy would have to be nerfed to MAKE SURE the other hero gets a turn at killing them.

3. The incorporeal aspect needs to be taken away.

4. The copies should come with the same [or less] mana, shots, and spell effects on it as the parent group had [exact copies only!!]


Regenerating a stack capable of inflicting full damage, that has full mana, full shots, and an effective BOOST to initiative, incorporeal, etc. is all WAY too much!!

The spell as is could easily be 4th level and maybe even a so-so 5th level spell as is. I would think lowering Firewall and if needed Arcane Armor would be a better way to go if the spell is to be left as-is.

[MrSteamTank]

I believe that something needs to be done about Phantom Forces.

As a Level 3 spell I think at least one [or more] things would need to be fixed:

1. The HP of copies should be based on Summoning skill & spell power.

2. The intiative of the copy would have to be nerfed to MAKE SURE the other hero gets a turn at killing them.

3. The incorporeal aspect needs to be taken away.

4. The copies should come with the same [or less] mana, shots, and spell effects on it as the parent group had [exact copies only!!]


Regenerating a stack capable of inflicting full damage, that has full mana, full shots, and an effective BOOST to initiative, incorporeal, etc. is all WAY too much!!

The spell as is could easily be 4th level and maybe even a so-so 5th level spell as is. I would think lowering Firewall and if needed Arcane Armor would be a better way to go if the spell is to be left as-is.

Considering this is a practically carbon copy of mirror image from homm2(can't copy the highest tier stacks but they gain incoorporeal which is probably just as good and maybe even better since high tier units don't dominate like in homm2) which was one of the best level 5 spells in the game it definitely needs a nerf. If anything I'd drop the clones initiative and make the units created based on your spell power just like every other summon in the game.

[OliverFA]

That still doesn't make up for the fact that you can make an infinite nr. of phatoms for 1 stack.

Not infinite, as the hero's mana limits the number of phantoms that can be created.

And I am not against increasing the mana cost.

Powerfull is one thing, overpowered another.

I agree, but one must be carefull not to remove all the notable features just because they are "overpowered". Is like saying that Civilization's nukes are "overpowered". They certainly are, as the player who gets them has much more chances to win that the ones who don't have it. But they require a high amount of investment in research and building. So they don't come for free. And is a legitimate strategy to go "the nuke way".

That's the approach that should be also taken in Heroes. Make the "overpowered" spells available only after investment (raise your hero to level X and advanced/expert skill) and then make them costly in terms of mana points. But don't destroy them. Then we end with a plain and boring game.

Right now a hero has 6 skill slots. 5 because one is ocupied by the unique skill. having to "waste" one slot in getting advanced/expert magic plus maybe one of the "perks" seems like a fair tradeoff for getting a powerful spell. Add that the spell costs a high amount of mana (making it effectively available to real magic heroes and not might heroes who know a bit of magic) and we'll have a balanced system.

This kind of talk reminds me of night elf players in warcraft 3. "Don't nerf hunters they are fine you just have to learn how to counter them." I think about 60% of the online community was night elf due to hunters dominating solo play.

I don't know Warcraft. I really dislike clickfeast "strategy" games. (But not true RTS games such as Paradox ones or Total War) so I cannot comment this.

Sure homm5 is different but what fun is it when everybody is using phantom forces like mad in every game because it's simply better than every other option?

To me Phantom Forces seem pretty easy to counter. It has been said in this same thread that Area of Effect spells will destroy the phantom image and also the parent stack.

But again, I didn't say that the spell shouldn't be tweaked. What I am completely against of is that this "tweaking" turns the spell into a uselles one like (I will never get tired of saying it) Town Portal. Town Portal was a totally overpowered spell. Now they "fixed" it and turned it into a totally useless spell. With that precedent of "fixing unbalanced features by directly removing them" I am afraid that Phantom Forces will follow the same way and become another useless spell (and we don't have so many spells in that iteration of the game).

Fixing the spell; sure. Destroying it; no way!

[Gaidal Cain]

Town Portal is just fine as it is- it allows you to cut some corners and get home quicker. Coupled with Summon Creatures, it's perhaps even better than it was in H4.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I think bumping it up to level 4 and firewall down to level 3 would be quite sufficient. It is one of the few useful summoning spells in the game and should remain powerful.

Droping initiative of the cloned stack would totally destroy the spell. There are a number of ways to counter the spell unless you make it so that the stack is not totally destroyed by taking damage. Area effect spells will destroy not only the clone but damage/destroy the original stack and possibly other stacks as well.

There are a number of spells as powerful as phantom army. All of the mass and empowered spells are quite powerful. Add master of fire/ice/storms to an empowered destructive spell and tell me that's its not powerful. Empowered meteor shower/implosion carries quite a bite, eh?

Don't nerf away this spell please.

GOW

[DaemianLucifer]

Nukes in civ arent overpowered because of the insane cost,damage they do to the overal enviroment,and the fact that they can e coutered(though that one is costly as well).Also,like in real world,it almost always comes to the deal between the most powerfull players not to use the nukes,even though they have amased some(but somehow,these deals get broken at times ).Phantom forces is a spell not accesible by everyone(you have to get it in your guild,and not everyone does,and you must take summoning magic,and its not a good idea for everyone to get it),so one player will have the advantage.Empowered spells are strong,but they dont take away whole stacks.Master of storms though is close to phantom force,although not quite.And saying that mana caps the number of phantom forces is not a walid argument if your knowledge is 10 and you have mana boosters.Also,though it is countered by AOE spells,it still deals quite a punch when you get extra 100 master hunters.There are other ways to keep the spell useful,but nerf it down.One is to make the HP summoned depend on spellpower(but its like HIV,so it wont happen)

[Gaidal Cain]

Besides, Area effect- or even destructive- spells may not be available. only three towns can be sure to get them in their guilds.

[ThunderTitan]

Besides, Area effect- or even destructive- spells may not be available. only three towns can be sure to get them in their guilds.

BS. I'm pretty sure you get at least one. And there's always Wasp Swarm.

But PF is overpowered, especialy since once the AI wizard hero kept PF swarming me (and not losing mana either), and they only way I eventualy won was by using Curse of the Netherworld everytime my hero had a turn.

It needs to be moved to lvl. 4 and limited in how many times you can clone a certain stack.

[HodgePodge]

It needs to be moved to lvl. 4 and limited in how many times you can clone a certain stack.

I agree, Markal had one "heck" of a time defeating Godric because Godric kept PFing creatures. My side had to keep ahead of the game by continually attacking the Phantom creatures. Phantom Forces should be at least a level four spell or like in Heroes 4, only a limited number of creatures are summoned.

[Mightor Magic]

I think bumping it up to level 4 and firewall down to level 3 would be quite sufficient. It is one of the few useful summoning spells in the game and should remain powerful.

GOW

That makes a lot of sense, not just from the point of Phantom Forces but because Firewall is kind of useless for a level 4 spell. As for Phantom Forces, I'm not impressed by the spell {same as Clone from Heroes 3}. I always have to cast it again the next time I get to cast a spell and I don't think that's really the best use of the heroes spell power.

I'm not much of a fan of Summoning magic anyway, even for Necromancers. Wasp swarm was the only spell I used when I directly developed a Summoning Necromancer. On the other hand, since I didn't get either Raise Dead or Phantom Forces, isn't that something of a nerf too? {But I have to admit that it was pretty funny map. I even tried using Phoenix a couple of times but by the time it got to move, my army had already won the battle}.

[Gaidal Cain]

BS. I'm pretty sure you get at least one. And there's always Wasp Swarm.

Haven't tried to check it, but if it's random, you run a 12.5% risk of not getting any spell of a specific school in a guild not aligned with that school. And does Wasp Swarm even work against Phantom Forced creatures?

[ThunderTitan]

And does Wasp Swarm even work against Phantom Forced creatures?

Don't know, but it should.

@Mightor Magic

Guess you never PFed a stack of over 100 Hunters. It's murder with the 50% miss chance. And if you have Sorcery your hero gets to keep making PF's faster, while keeping the ones not destroyed.

[MrSteamTank]

And does Wasp Swarm even work against Phantom Forced creatures?

Don't know, but it should.

@Mightor Magic

Guess you never PFed a stack of over 100 Hunters. It's murder with the 50% miss chance. And if you have Sorcery your hero gets to keep making PF's faster, while keeping the ones not destroyed.

Not only that but you make sure the enemy hero gets to NOT act. What if the enemy hero has a much higher spellpower himself? Well he can't waste a turn not killing your clones as a cloned stack of say 100 arch-magi does more than any other spell in his arsenal.

Sometimes you can clone a unit and have the clone attack before the enemy hero can even cast a spell. Clones are also excellent meat shields. Lich's are so brutal as a cloned lich in a corner standing next to some zombies say can have a constant army of phantom forces being cloned and be completely untargetable by large melee units.

[Caradoc]

Have you noticed that sometimes the AI will cast buff spells on the clones?

[jaq]

The spell is to be nerfed for sure. Making it level 4 is not good, because of balancing, eg. Magic Insight perk should make this spell available for everyone.

1. The HP of copies should be based on Summoning skill & spell power.

2. The intiative of the copy would have to be nerfed to MAKE SURE the other hero gets a turn at killing them.

3. The incorporeal aspect needs to be taken away.

4. The copies should come with the same [or less] mana, shots, and spell effects on it as the parent group had [exact copies only!!]

Ethereal thingy is really overpowered, especially for might heroes (ok, we don't have them now, but they'll be in the expansion pack) which don't have mana to loose.

The exact copies is logical, as it should be mirror image, but then, to keep it logical, it can't become HP-based spell.

So maybe let's make it have half the initiative of mirrored unit or even zero initiative? Zero is maybe not good idea (this way the spell acted in HOMM III or II and if it were level 3 spell, it would have beed OK for me, but as it was level 5, there were so many good spels, that this one was really useless), but full initiative neither.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

A number of people have said in different threads that the cloned stack must have its initiative reduced in order to guarantee that the opposing army has a chance to destroy it before it acts.

Following this principle whenever a meteor storm is cast it should not immediately take effect in order to give the opposing player a chance to move his units out of the affected area (which should be highlighted.) The same goes for all other damage spells.

Also whenever a melee unit begins its attack animation he should not complete swinging his sword for example until the opposing unit has had ample time to back up to avoid the blow.

We can then change the name of the game to HOMM5 : Stalemate because each action must be able to be countered before it can take effect.

GASETOW
(Grumpy And Somewhat Exhausted Today Old Wizard)
This morning has been a long day.

[ThunderTitan]

The best way to fix the spell is to bump it to lvl 4 and limit the number of times it can copy a stack. That would make you have to think before using it.