HoMM III: Best level 3 creature

[Jolly Joker]

You're just wrong JollyJoker. You don't have time to build Royal Griffins because you're building every turn, aiming at the Portal of Glory. Of course you don't have to build the Royal Griffins and of course you don't have the time to build them. After you get the Portal of Glory you won't have any need for the Royal Griffins.

In the meantime, what do you mean by they're worth it? They're not worth it because you don't need them. What can you do with Royal Griffins you couldn't already do with your other units anyway

Okay, let's try again:

1. Griffins fly - but so do Archangels.
2. Griffins are fast - but so are Archangels and Champions.
3. Griffins deal decent damage - but then so do Marksmen, Crusaders, Zealots, Champions and Archangels.

You really want to tell anyone that between upgrading to Champions and Archangels you eitherdon't have the time to build Griffins or you "don't need them"?
Clearly, if you wouldn't need them, the game would be completely imbalanced because it would mean Castle can win every game without ever having to resort to their - rather massive - lvl 3 unit contingent.
Also - clearly, as well, you never play higher difficulty levels and maybe not the best of opponents.

But I don't intend to discuss this further. Completely useless.

[Banedon]

You're just wrong Pol But I get your meaning

I expect that your experience is going out from difficulties to Hard. However on Impossible you may usually forget on Portal of Glory in short time outlook. Instead you will need to focus your attention toward griffins (and sometimes it can be only griffins) to be able to explore fast and hunt effectively a treasuries. Griffins are backbone (or better say additional backbone) of Castle Army. You never played campaings? - You would learned it here.

If it comes to Impossible difficulty I believe the better strategy would be Marksmen + Crusaders, as per normal, then save cash and go for the higher tier units - again, as per normal. Why should you need the Griffins anyway? Crusaders do the same job just as effectively, and you get them first.

Campaigns are campaigns and it's been a very very long time since I last played campaigns, but from what I recall the same holds. You simply don't need the Royal Griffins, and so either you don't have the time to build them (since they are so low on the priority list) or you don't want to build them (since they take resources you might as well put into getting Angels).

But I don't intend to discuss this further. Completely useless.

'

Suit yourself. In a few more days I should be able to play the Inferno game, and then that'll be the end of this affair.

[Jolly Joker]

Suit yourself. In a few more days I should be able to play the Inferno game, and then that'll be the end of this affair.

Banedon proudly presents:

THE MAGIC INFERNO GAME
Prove everything once and for all and be done with it!

[Bandobras Took]

Suit yourself. In a few more days I should be able to play the Inferno game, and then that'll be the end of this affair.

Banedon proudly presents:

THE MAGIC INFERNO GAME
Prove everything once and for all and be done with it!

As you can see, people will even mock concrete examples.

[wimfrits]

However on Impossible you may usually forget on Portal of Glory in short time outlook.

1. you can usually have a portal of glory by the end of the second week. That is, if you do not spend your resources unwisely
2. a few angels help significantly in clearing the map on higher difficulties
3. a few griffins help little in clearing the map on higher difficulties

Imo one can argue about using griffins on lower difficulty levels. But focusing on griffins in the early game phase is an exceptionally bad thing on impossible difficulty.

[Jolly Joker]

I thought, we'd all agree that early game expansion is with Marksmen.

[Pol]

However on Impossible you may usually forget on Portal of Glory in short time outlook.

1. you can usually have a portal of glory by the end of the second week. That is, if you do not spend your resources unwisely

Short time outlook is for me first week with few more days up. This is giving you a plethora of ways to build griffins to accumulate them or throw them into use to get a better revenue, if you feel for. The Portal of the Glory of the end of second week is practically sure thing, if it's not resource scare map.

[wimfrits]

I thought, we'd all agree that early game expansion is with Marksmen.

Well I do.
But if resources are less of a factor and it doesn't mess up your building scheme it is possible that investing in another unit before getting to lvl7 is worthwhile

This is giving you a plethora of ways to build griffins to accumulate them or throw them into use to get a better revenue, if you feel for.

How do you 'accumulate' griffins when you build the dwelling in the first week? And again, how are a handful of units that have a hard time avoiding getting hit, of use in a game where the odds are very high? Simple: they are not.
When the odds are too high to survive a direct confrontation you need either ranged units, units that can fly around endlessly, or units with special that prevent them from taking damage (e.g. no retaliation). Other units are useless.

At the same time, you are investing a significant amount of resources in a unit that doesn't give you an edge, therefore preventing you from spending these resources on your techtree development, delaying the time you get units that do matter (angels in this case) and thus slowing your progress.

[Jolly Joker]

I must be misunderstanding something.

You don't hire everything you build, aren't you? The Griffin building cost 1000 Gold + 5 Ore which isn't all too much considering that you need 30 WOOD for Stables and Level 6 basic, no Ore for level 7, 10 WOOD for Blacksmith and Market and only 5 Ore for the Citadel, 5 More for Level 4, another 5 for the potential level 1 upgrade and another 5 for the potential level 4 upgrade. Plus maybe 5 more for the Silo. The rest cost as much wood as ore.
So the bottom line is that you need ALOT more wood than ore, as soon as you want to have a level 6 dwelling - which means that is should be no question to slip in the Griffin tower within the first weeks.

Of course there MIGHT just be the odd game where you have TONS of wood - starting with a built shipyard at a coast and a rich ocean would be a possibility - but not much ore, and here I agree that you might simply don't build the Griffin tower EARLY, i.e. within the 1st 2 weeks. You will build it though, before you grade up your high level units, that's for sure.

[Pol]

Well, the key word is to accumulate. Nearby dwellings help for that a lot (even one is a big boost). So in the second week they can be a quite useful and accelerate your money curve. And with that I will be having more artifacts, better heroes, more money and faster Upgraded Portal of Glory. (ultimatively it's however depending on the map - on somes it may not works)

As to the losses this is completely your thing - I'm not losing more than five, and that is indeed a maximum. Let see that in second week you may be having about twenty griffins +/- dwelling so even over thirty. Even twenty Royal Griffins are a good force to be reckong with and allows you to clear wreck/crypts etc. At the same time they would be stronger then achieavable number of monks.

[wimfrits]

Nearby dwellings help for that a lot

Ofcourse! If there are 2 griffin dwellings nearby, I might consider going for griffins as well; fully realizing that investing in griffins will most likely keep me from getting lvl7 units by the end of week2.
But nearby griffin dwellings is not something that is standard imo.

So in the second week they can be a quite useful and accelerate your money curve. And with that I will be having more artifacts, better heroes, more money and faster Upgraded Portal of Glory.

So.. player 1 (me) takes on pretty much everything with pikemen and marksmen. Player 2 (you) takes on pretty much everything with additional griffins. And player 2 is the one with an accelerated money curve? Odd theory.

As to the losses this is completely your thing - I'm not losing more than five, and that is indeed a maximum.

Five is Five too much.

Even twenty Royal Griffins are a good force to be reckong with and allows you to clear wreck/crypts etc. At the same time they would be stronger then achieavable number of monks.

True. In the second week, you'll have a clear army strength advantage. An unnecessary advantage (except in a very small map) as they do not allow you to handle much more than you could handle with marksmen + pikemen alone.
The unnecessary army strength advantage ends at week3-day1 where I purchase my 3 angels.

[Pol]

But nearby griffin dwellings is not something that is standard imo.

I don't know like imo, but very often they are presented.

So.. player 1 (me) takes on pretty much everything with pikemen and marksmen. Player 2 (you) takes on pretty much everything with additional griffins. And player 2 is the one with an accelerated money curve? Odd theory

This is nonsense, you will not be able to beat strong wrecks/crypts etc without gradually keeping losses. If there will be more of them in a row, you will have 40% chance to fail. Quite a lot. (yet again, does not apply on all maps)

Five is Five too much.

I'm realistical, so five is indeed a maximum. Of course if you would like more to hearing about a minimum then it's zero?

The unnecessary army strength advantage ends at week3-day1 where I purchase my 3 angels.

I hope that you are realized that your are wrong. As we are talking about example where you are missing griffins and I'm not. That doesn't restrict me in Angels. You will just lack these 20~30 griffins, some money and artifacts. (which may be not sufficient outset to my domination but it's still a sort of advantage which I can appreciate anytime.)

[wimfrits]

This is nonsense, you will not be able to beat strong wrecks/crypts etc without gradually keeping losses.

True. Griffins can help with weak treasuries where pikemen and marksmen do not. So, what do you do when you enter a strong treasury? Flee and buy some new griffins?

I'm realistical, so five is indeed a maximum. Of course if you would like more to hearing about a minimum then it's zero?

That's very good!

I hope that you are realized that your are wrong. As we are talking about example where you are missing griffins and I'm not. That doesn't restrict me in Angels. You will just lack these 20~30 griffins, some money and artifacts. (which may be not sufficient outset to my domination but it's still a sort of advantage which I can appreciate anytime.)

For the last time.
You and I will in general be able to beat the same enemies, pick up the same artifacts (if it is a fully mirrored map lol), reach the same hero levels, etc etc, in the first 2 weeks.

The ONLY difference is that you have spent resources and 2 building days on something that is not needed for either a capitol or a lvl 7 dwelling.
I have not. As a result, you will have a disadvantage in town development.

Now, I don't mean to criticize your game. Everyone should have fun playing the game the way he/she sees fit. One can find joy in various aspects of the game. Personally, my joy comes from playing as efficiently as possible. As many will agree with me, griffins are not on the early path of efficiency.
As we both seem to repeat ourselves, I see no point in discussing this further.

[Pol]

For the last time.
You and I will in general be able to beat the same enemies, pick up the same artifacts (if it is a fully mirrored map lol), reach the same hero levels, etc etc, in the first 2 weeks.

First it's not wasted, if I do have these resources they will make a nice use here. And as was mentioned building Griffins is cheap.

Second, that's not true - it's indeed depending on the map. Don't get me wrong like that I don't see your point but here are maps where it can create a slight, yet important difference. And we are talking about clearing a map/treasuries. Having griffins is an advantageous.

[Banedon]

Second, that's not true - it's indeed depending on the map. Don't get me wrong like that I don't see your point but here are maps where it can create a slight, yet important difference. And we are talking about clearing a map/treasuries. Having griffins is an advantageous.

It is an advantage...but a small one, and if getting those Griffins stop you from getting the Portal of Glory on week 2 day 7 I would say it results in a net disadvantage instead of advantage. The real crux of the matter when using Griffins is, do you really need them? Do they afford you some advantage you could not already have with Marksmen / Pikemen / Crusaders? If they do, then go ahead and use them, but more often than not they do not - wherupon going for them needlessly takes up your resources. These resources are not cheap; you still need to spend Gold to purchase the dwelling / upgrade / horde building (if you're going for it) and then the Griffins themselves. Instead of spending gold here you can buy more heroes, save for the Portal of Glory and perhaps go for City Hall / Capitol.

@wimfrits - you sound more and more like csarmi

[Pol]

Hmm, I belive that csarmi legacy is still living among us. About these many centuries, he had become a gold capital of information, serving with his typical charm. Even Vel is short to him.

[wimfrits]

@wimfrits - you sound more and more like csarmi

Hmmm. Must be having my monthly period

[Muszka]

And since the Griffin building is off the build-chain to PoG, you rarely use them in the begining(a fact that you've mentioned), but starting from midgame they are a base unit of the Castle, 'cos they got quite a good growt. I'm pretty sure that they can be used in many ways, even more than GE (who can only attack)
Also I think that it wasn't a random thing that NWC put Griffins as emblem of the Empire.

I think you're underestimating Castle. Castle forces are multivaried and versatile, they simply do not need Griffins:

1. Griffins fly - but so do Archangels.
2. Griffins are fast - but so are Archangels and Champions.
3. Griffins deal decent damage - but then so do Marksmen, Crusaders, Zealots, Champions and Archangels.
4. Griffins are expendable - but they still can't cross the map in a turn to block shooters.
5. Griffins are decent blocker units - but then why not use Halberdiers?

You're not serious, are you?
It's in my post: I use Griffins from early-midgame until the end. Not in the begining.
But Pol uses them, and with results, so it's just a matter of playing style.

You say Archangels and Champions. I'm playing a different version or what? I my game, champions are of the chain build too, and you need some real "forest-cutting" to build them.
And you asked that what can you do with griffins what you can't with marksmen+crusaders. Answer: Your Belowed Grand Elves.
And I've said base unit, because they are Castle's only fliers beside Archangels. They Castle's 2nd fastest unit(with Champs along), their versatility is one of the highest of all units.

P.S. How you can compare Halberdiers with Royal Griffins? (beside being both a Castle unit, they have nothing in common)

[Banedon]

You're not serious, are you?
It's in my post: I use Griffins from early-midgame until the end. Not in the begining.
But Pol uses them, and with results, so it's just a matter of playing style.

You say Archangels and Champions. I'm playing a different version or what? I my game, champions are of the chain build too, and you need some real "forest-cutting" to build them.
And you asked that what can you do with griffins what you can't with marksmen+crusaders. Answer: Your Belowed Grand Elves.
And I've said base unit, because they are Castle's only fliers beside Archangels. They Castle's 2nd fastest unit(with Champs along), their versatility is one of the highest of all units.

P.S. How you can compare Halberdiers with Royal Griffins? (beside being both a Castle unit, they have nothing in common)

I'm definitely being serious. There is no time to get them. If you look at the magical Inferno game I didn't build the Hell Hounds at all though they're good level 3 units (fast speed, no retaliation, three-headed attack, etc). Why? Because there is no need to! Efreets and Pit Lords and Archdevils are the strikeforce of Inferno late-game. In a similar way, Castle has no need for Royal Griffins and if the choice is between getting the Portal of Glory or Griffin Bastion in the second week, I don't think there's much of a choice.

PS: Comparing Halberdiers with Royal Griffins is because, most of the time, the role of the Royal Griffins will be as a blocker.
PPS: I'm almost sure you can get Angels without Champions. Are you sure yours is the other way round?

[Muszka]

I'm definitely being serious. There is no time to get them. If you look at the magical Inferno game I didn't build the Hell Hounds at all though they're good level 3 units (fast speed, no retaliation, three-headed attack, etc). Why? Because there is no need to! Efreets and Pit Lords and Archdevils are the strikeforce of Inferno late-game. In a similar way, Castle has no need for Royal Griffins and if the choice is between getting the Portal of Glory or Griffin Bastion in the second week, I don't think there's much of a choice.

If you finish the map in a month, than you definitly don't use Cerberis, or don't in most cases, but I think, you can agree that not every map is finished in a month. After first month, when you can have most of the buildings built, Cerberis are slowly comeing in sight, because they are faster than Pit Lords and they have no enemy retaliation. (+ AI has some sickness on PL, attacking them all the time)

PS: Comparing Halberdiers with Royal Griffins is because, most of the time, the role of the Royal Griffins will be as a blocker.

Interesting. I use them mostly as attackers, but I if you not, than that's your problem.

PPS: I'm almost sure you can get Angels without Champions. Are you sure yours is the other way round?

Yes. I was telling the same. But since the Jousting arena is expensive and needs a lot of wood, the Champions are not more off-build-chain units, than Rgriffins.